Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

ronnymarsh
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by ronnymarsh »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:03 pm
ronnymarsh wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:59 pm "Seed" in Buddhism refers to a "state" of consciousness.
Its Buddhanature. Tathagatagarbha. "State" is a provisional qualification at best. State suggests static. That is at conflict with description of Buddhanature has having "function." Buddhanature is, if we are going to qualify it, dynamic, not a state.

That text covers this.
"state" does not necessarily mean something "static", or "Invariant". It is the term "static" that depends on "state" and not the opposite. State means precisely an apparent and provisional condition in face of the continuous dynamics of transformation.

Water, for example, can be liquid, solid or gaseous, this represents its possible states. Water is always H2O, what makes us identify its states is the behavior of its atoms, that is, the function they play in molecules.

Likewise, what identifies Buddhahood is its function, that is, its behavior.

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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

ronnymarsh wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:50 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:03 pm
ronnymarsh wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:59 pm "Seed" in Buddhism refers to a "state" of consciousness.
Its Buddhanature. Tathagatagarbha. "State" is a provisional qualification at best. State suggests static. That is at conflict with description of Buddhanature has having "function." Buddhanature is, if we are going to qualify it, dynamic, not a state.

That text covers this.
"state" does not necessarily mean something "static", or "Invariant". It is the term "static" that depends on "state" and not the opposite. State means precisely an apparent and provisional condition in face of the continuous dynamics of transformation.

Water, for example, can be liquid, solid or gaseous, this represents its possible states. Water is always H2O, what makes us identify its states is the behavior of its atoms, that is, the function they play in molecules.

Likewise, what identifies Buddhahood is its function, that is, its behavior.

:anjali: :buddha1: :buddha2:
Buddhanature is also empty, so to call it a state, liquid solid gaseous whatver, is incomplete at best.

Look, this is your provisional attempt at an explanation. If that's the story you want to stick to, I'm not going to stop you.

Buddhanature is not a state of consciousness; its not like a dhatu that arises as the contact between sense organ and sense object.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by ronnymarsh »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 6:39 pm Buddhanature is also empty, so to call it a state, liquid solid gaseous whatver, is incomplete at best.

Look, this is your provisional attempt at an explanation. If that's the story you want to stick to, I'm not going to stop you.

Buddhanature is not a state of consciousness; its not like a dhatu that arises as the contact between sense organ and sense object.
The meaning of emptiness in Buddhism is not that of an "absolute emptiness" of the "ein sof" type of Qabalah, or "wu" of Taoism. Emptiness is the characteristic that all things change their states by changing their causes and conditions. If you think of a concept where emptiness is a concrete quality of an object, you are proposing the notion of atman.

In the Gosho "The Entity of the Mystic Law" https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/47 the author (whether Nichiren himself or a Nichirenist disciple) clearly and repeatedly expounds what enlightenment is:
"Question: If the entity of all living beings is the Mystic Law in its entirety, then are all the actions and their results that are associated with the nine worlds, from the world of hell up to that of bodhisattvas, in effect of the entities Mystic Law?"

Answer: The mystic principle that is the essential nature of phenomena possesses two aspects, the defiled aspect and the pure aspect. If the defiled aspect is operative, this is called delusion. If the pure aspect is operative, this is called enlightenment. Enlightenment constitutes the realm of Buddhahood. Delusion constitutes the realms of ordinary mortals (...)
In this first paragraph of the answer Nichiren presents the distinction between illusion and illumination.
There is a "mystical principle" that is unique, however this principle has "two aspects", the "defiled" and the "pure". When the first aspect is operative, that is, when the mystical principle behaves according to that aspect, then there is ignorance, otherwise, when it behaves according to the pure aspect, then there is enlightenment.

This description is taken completely from the Mahayana's "Treatise on the Awakening of the Faith of the Mahayana", which talks about "One Mind - Two Gates", which is an influential text in the Kegon and Zen schools, and is the key text from which the notion of "hongaku" is the key to understanding the Mahayana concept of innate and sudden enlightenment.
(...)These two aspects, the deluded and the enlightened, are indeed two different phenomena, and yet both are workings of the one principle, that is, the essential nature of phenomena, or the true aspect of reality. (…)
Ignorance and enlightenment are different things. It is incorrect to literally understand that "worldly desires are enlightenment", for example.

Worldly desires are not enlightenment when we observe them "from above". However, when we get to the heart of the matter and observe that both worldly desire and enlightenment are phenomena derived from one and the same mind, when we realize that at this level both are empty, devoid of an atman, and arising from causes and conditions, so we can say they are the same.

In Buddhism there are two levels of realities where we employ discourse: the fundamental level and the behavioral level. In the first, everything is identical, in the second, everything is discriminated.
(...)It is like a piece of crystal. If the crystal is placed in the sun’s rays, it will attract them and produce fire. But if it is placed in the moon’s rays, it will produce water. The crystal is a single entity, but the effects it produces differ according to the circumstances.(...)
Nichiren's example expresses what the distinction between ignorance and enlightenment consists of.

There is a single crystal and two phenomena that occur through two distinct causes. In the first example we have contact between the crystal and the sun's rays, and the result is the production of fire. In the second example we have contact between the crystal and the moon's rays, and the result is the production of water.

The key issue to understand this issue is |contact|. Contact between the subject (the crystal) and a certain type of object produces a specific effect according to the object's qualities.

And that goes back to what I said about consciousness.

Consciousness in Buddhism is not something that always exists. It is a continuum product of the contact between a subject and an object. Only when there is contact there is Consciousness, if there is not contact there will be no consciousness.
(…) The mystic principle of the true aspect of reality is like this. The mystic principle of the true aspect of reality is one, but if it encounters evil influences, it will manifest delusion, while if it encounters good influences, it will manifest enlightenment.(…)
Now Nichiren reiterates what was said before. Enlightenment is the process that begins through contact with good influences, that is, through virtuous objects, in which the main and most specific is the Buddha.

This is something that is common throughout Buddhism, without that notion we don't have Buddhism. Enlightenment is a process that begins with contact with a virtuous object, the Buddha. If one does not meet a Buddha, either directly or indirectly (through the Sangha), he cannot undertake the process.

This is the problematic of the age Mappo. At that time there is neither the ability to obtain direct contact with Shakyamuni Buddha, nor is there the ability to obtain indirect contact through his authentic sangha [due to the fact that the last heir of the Dharma was Shishibodai who passed away without passing on the vital inheritance], so can't effectively initiate the process of enlightenment.

[the three schools of the Kamakura period develop as attempts to solve this problem. Nichiren is placed either as another Buddha or as an heir to that Buddha. The Pure Land offers another Buddha, Amida, with whom people can make contact. And Zen offers the belief that Shishibodai passed away transmitting the Inheritance of the Law, which was perpetuated until Bodhidharma who transmitted it to other Zen patriarchs until today, nullifying (theoretically) Mappo's problematic].
(...) Enlightenment means enlightenment to the essential nature of phenomena, and delusion, ignorance of it.
And finally he gives a complete and simple definition of what enlightenment is, which is only understood when we understand that the term satori (boddhi) means exactly awakening.

That is, Enlightenment is awakening to the natural essence of dharmas, it is understanding that the five aggregates, six base and eighteen spheres are all made up of the 10 aspects, and their true nature is the middle path.

While its opposite is to ignore this reality.

In view of the understanding of this vision of reality, beings start to behave differently, and thus conquer the breaking of the fetters, which, when completing the process, manage to obtain Nirvana, the cessation of Samsara.


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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

ronnymarsh wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:48 pm The meaning of emptiness in Buddhism is not that of an "absolute emptiness" of the "ein sof" type of Qabalah, or "wu" of Taoism. Emptiness is the characteristic that all things change their states by changing their causes and conditions. If you think of a concept where emptiness is a concrete quality of an object, you are proposing the notion of atman.
I don't get your point. What are you trying to say?
In the Gosho "The Entity of the Mystic Law" https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/47 the author (whether Nichiren himself or a Nichirenist disciple) clearly and repeatedly expounds what enlightenment is:
"Question: If the entity of all living beings is the Mystic Law in its entirety, then are all the actions and their results that are associated with the nine worlds, from the world of hell up to that of bodhisattvas, in effect of the entities Mystic Law?"

Answer: The mystic principle that is the essential nature of phenomena possesses two aspects, the defiled aspect and the pure aspect. If the defiled aspect is operative, this is called delusion. If the pure aspect is operative, this is called enlightenment. Enlightenment constitutes the realm of Buddhahood. Delusion constitutes the realms of ordinary mortals (...)
In this first paragraph of the answer Nichiren presents the distinction between illusion and illumination.
There is a "mystical principle" that is unique, however this principle has "two aspects", the "defiled" and the "pure". When the first aspect is operative, that is, when the mystical principle behaves according to that aspect, then there is ignorance, otherwise, when it behaves according to the pure aspect, then there is enlightenment.

This description is taken completely from the Mahayana's "Treatise on the Awakening of the Faith of the Mahayana", which talks about "One Mind - Two Gates", which is an influential text in the Kegon and Zen schools, and is the key text from which the notion of "hongaku" is the key to understanding the Mahayana concept of innate and sudden enlightenment.
You might consider trying to understand these writings of Nichiren through the teachings and texts of the Tientai/Tendai Lotus School which a survey of Nichiren's writings will show he in fact based his teachings on. This text you cite, Totaigisho, itself cites several Tientai texts, but makes no reference to Awakening of Faith. Awakening of Faith has no place in the Lotus traditions, including Nichiren.

As for you explanation of the passage - I wouldn't put it that way. The meaning of these passages is quite clear if properly understood through the Tientai teachings, particularly the Tientai texts Nichiren cites in this text. There is NO hint that the Awakening of Faith is relevant.

This "entity" Nichiren was dicussing is variously called Buddhanature, Tathgatagarbha, Myohorengekyo, Buddhanture-Middleway, "Mystical Entity", Mind, etc. The qualities of pure and impure are not intrinsic or extrinsic to it, but rather conventional distinctions identified by the Buddha for the purpose of teaching beings who themselves are, by definition, trapped by delusions. By distinguishing the impure, that is also marked by ignorance, the Buddha is able to point out "right" and "wrong" and thereby identify the path to bodhi (ignorance is not an effect of delusion, as you seem to suggest, but is delusion itself, is impurity itself).

In Totaigisho, Nichiren quotes Nanyue Huisi, Zhiyi's teacher:

“The entity of the mind is endowed with two aspects, the defiled and the pure. However, it does not have two different forms but is single in nature and without distinction.”

In the Unanimous Declaration I referred to above, Nichiren commented:
Living beings in the nine worlds sleep in an ignorance that accompanies them each moment of their lives, drowned in dreams of the realm of birth and death, forgetful of the waking state of original enlightenment, clinging to dreamlike rights and wrongs, moving from darkness into darkness.

For this reason the Thus Come One enters this dream realm of birth and death in which we dwell, speaks in the same dream language as living beings with their topsy-turvy thinking, beckons to these living beings in their dreams, speaks to them of distinctions between good and evil as they exist in the realm of dreams, and in this way bit by bit leads and guides them.
Ignorance and enlightenment are different things. It is incorrect to literally understand that "worldly desires are enlightenment", for example.
Actually, they are the same from the view of the Buddha, and this is the only correct view. Perceiving them as different is a provisional view. That's why the mere change in view turns klesa into dharmakaya. Nichiren in Totaigisho which you quoted from puts it this way:
In essence, the entity of Myoho-renge-kyo is the physical body that the disciples and followers of Nichiren who believe in the Lotus Sutra received from their fathers and mothers at birth. Such persons, who honestly discard expedient means, put faith in the Lotus Sutra alone, and chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo, will transform the three paths of earthly desires, karma, and suffering into the three virtues of the Dharma body, wisdom, and emancipation. The threefold contemplation and the three truths will immediately become manifest in their minds, and the place where they live will become the Land of Eternally Tranquil Light. The Buddha who is the entity of Myoho-renge-kyo, of the “Life Span” chapter of the essential teaching, who is both inhabiting subject and inhabited realm, life and environment, body and mind, entity and function, the Buddha eternally endowed with the three bodies—he is to be found in the disciples and lay believers of Nichiren. Such persons embody the true entity of Myoho-renge-kyo; this is all due to the meritorious workings that the spontaneous transcendental powers inherent in it display. Could anyone venture to doubt it? Indeed it cannot be doubted!
Worldly desires are not enlightenment when we observe them "from above". However, when we get to the heart of the matter and observe that both worldly desire and enlightenment are phenomena derived from one and the same mind, when we realize that at this level both are empty, devoid of an atman, and arising from causes and conditions, so we can say they are the same.
You kind of agree, but there's no reason to refer to "atman" here. Atman and anatman are Hinayana views and really should not be introduced at this level.

Its not that we can "say they are the same." They actually ARE the same. This is a significant difference.
(...)It is like a piece of crystal. If the crystal is placed in the sun’s rays, it will attract them and produce fire. But if it is placed in the moon’s rays, it will produce water. The crystal is a single entity, but the effects it produces differ according to the circumstances.(...)
Nichiren's example expresses what the distinction between ignorance and enlightenment consists of.

There is a single crystal and two phenomena that occur through two distinct causes. In the first example we have contact between the crystal and the sun's rays, and the result is the production of fire. In the second example we have contact between the crystal and the moon's rays, and the result is the production of water.

The key issue to understand this issue is |contact|. Contact between the subject (the crystal) and a certain type of object produces a specific effect according to the object's qualities.
You're still talking about the 9 worlds only. The Sudden and Perfect concerns Buddhahood, and only considers the 9 worlds as they are opened by Buddhahood. Enlightenment in the Sudden and Perfect is not about the good or evil influences, ie. sunlight and moonlight, but concerns the crystal itself.

The issue of "contact" is a concern in the 9 worlds, which of course is relevant for us because that is where we are mired. We are not awakened buddhas. But this contact, though emphasized in Nichiren's teachings, is not the overall point and doesn't really explain what is meant by awakening in the Lotus traditions.

The passage I quoted above continues:
But because the affairs of good and evil in this dream realm are so manifold in nature, so endlessly and boundlessly varied, he first of all addresses himself to the good, establishing three categories of superior, middling, and inferior good. This is the doctrine of the three vehicles [of voice-hearer, cause-awakened one, and bodhisattva]. And, after explaining this, he points out that within each of these three categories there are three subcategories [those of superior, middling, and inferior capacities], so that, beginning with the highest category, that of superior capacity within the category of superior good, there are three times three categories, or nine categories in all.

But all these categories belong in the end to the rights and wrongs or good and evil as these exist in the dream p.839realm of birth and death in the nine worlds. And all these distinctions represent erroneous views, the way of the non-Buddhists. (This is the view set forth in Delving into the Essentials.)

But then he explains that the goodness of mind of the highest category, that of superior capacity within the category of superior good, represents the principle of the waking state of original enlightenment and hence may be called the root or basis of goodness. At this point, because the listeners are utilizing the power of distinguishing between good and evil as they exist in the realm of dreams, they can begin to understand the principle of the true aspect of the original mind in the realm of wakefulness.

At this time the Buddha points out that, although one speaks of two different phenomena, dreams and the waking state, false affairs and true affairs, the mind underlying these is a single entity in either case. When it encounters conditions leading to sleep, it becomes the mind of dreams, but when sleep has passed away, it is the mind of the waking state. In either case the mind is a single entity, he explains. But in order to lay the groundwork for opening and merging of the dream realm and waking state, he has earlier preached an expedient means. (This addresses the doctrine of the Middle Way as it is explained in the specific teaching.)
Nichiren here in this passage is explaining "An Essay on the Protection of the Nation", by Saicho, the founder of the Tendai School in Japan. From here, he goes on to explain that the teaching with distinctions is in its entirety a provisional teaching that is only true in theory. It doesn't actually have the effect of Buddhahood. I don't want to quote the whole text, but as I mentioned, the Lotus Teachings are pretty well summarized in there, but this kind of puts a fine point on it:
The Thus Come One Shakyamuni, the lord who set forth a lifetime of teachings, preached the complete body of the scriptures and left us this declaration. The Buddhas of the three existences all unanimously use the same words and the same intention in the fashion they employ in preaching the teachings. Therefore I too will preach the teachings in this manner, not differing in a single word. As the “Expedient Means” chapter of the Lotus Sutra says, “Following the same fashion that the Buddhas of the three existences employ in preaching the teachings, I now will do likewise, preaching a Law that is without distinctions.”

The Law that is without distinctions is the wonderful Law of the one vehicle. It is the Law that makes no distinctions between good or evil, the Law that preaches that grass and trees, forests, mountains and rivers, the great earth or even one particle of dust all possess within themselves the full Ten Worlds. This one vehicle of the Lotus Sutra of the Wonderful Law present in one’s mind pervades all the pure lands of the ten directions without exception. The blessings that adorn the living beings and the environment in the pure lands of the ten directions are present within one’s own mind and never depart from it for an instant. This is the Thus Come One of original enlightenment, the three bodies that are a single unity, and outside of this there is no Law. This single Law exists within the pure lands of the ten directions, and no other Law exists. Hence it is called a Law without distinctions.
And that goes back to what I said about consciousness.

Consciousness in Buddhism is not something that always exists. It is a continuum product of the contact between a subject and an object. Only when there is contact there is Consciousness, if there is not contact there will be no consciousness.
(…) The mystic principle of the true aspect of reality is like this. The mystic principle of the true aspect of reality is one, but if it encounters evil influences, it will manifest delusion, while if it encounters good influences, it will manifest enlightenment.(…)
This consciousness you are referring to is not the "Mystical Entity." What you are describing is by definition a conventional dharma.

In Totaigisho, Nichiren seems to be discussing what is in a sense a provisional teaching, except for the way that the Sudden and Perfect Teaching is understood.

The focus of Nichiren's teaching is one discrete instance - the moment of Faith and Understanding (信解) ie. adhimukti. Its worth noting, adhimukti is not a reaction to external influences, but is an individually aroused mental factor. This moment of adhimukti is described clearly in Shishingohonsho. In the Sudden and Perfect teaching, this moment of faith and understanding occurs when the Buddha in Principle (ie all living beings) hears the name [of the Buddha] for the first time, ie. first learns of Buddhanature. In Nichiren's case, its the moment a person hears the Daimoku for the first time. This moment is explained in the Tientai teaching on the Six Identities and is based on the 16th and 17th chapters of the Lotus Sutra. At that moment of hearing the name, the being Suddenly enters bodhi. This is what is difficult to believe and difficult to understand. While this moment occurs nominally in a provisional context, since the nine worlds are actually just a delusion that never arises in the first place, its like a person dreaming who hears the call to awaken within the dream. Once they awaken, they realize the dream, including that call to awaken, was insubstantial all along and that their original state prevailed at all times.

You say you are familiar with the Unanimous Declaration, but you might want to review it again.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Riju »

bcol01 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:39 pm And if not, how would one practice/follow the LS if only independently? Thank you!
By boldly coming out, reading it, meditating on it, discussing it on forums, analyzing it logically even though forums may boycott your letters again and again. Be patient if one hurts, neglects or abuses you. In this way your mind will be on lotus sutra 24 hours. I have followed this above method and gained enormously million times.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by illarraza »

ronnymarsh wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:59 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:56 pm
-The Unanimous Declaration by the Buddhas of the Three Existencesregarding the Classification of the Teachings and Which Are to Be Abandoned and Which Upheld

Its a long, wonky read. There is much more to it than I quoted - I just couldn't find a good place to stop, so I just arbitrarily quote the beginning and end, but if you want to understand how Buddhahood is understood in the Lotus, and derivatively, the Nichiren traditions, this is an excellent read.

Its authenticity is debated, but it summarizes Lotus teachings on "awakening" and "dreaming" accurately.

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/315
Thanks! :anjali:

I know the text and it doesn't expose much other than Buddhism. However, when one ignores the whole context of the "mechanics" of life according to the Dharma, one can misunderstand what one is talking about.

"Seed" in Buddhism refers to a "state" of consciousness.

When we talk about the seed of Buddhahood, we are not literally talking about some concretely existing "thing", that is, there is no "dharma" called "seed", but as a simile to define the characteristic of a consciousness, if speaks of "seeds".

The "dharmas" in Buddhism are precisely the Five Aggregates ("five components of individuation of life" in Western gakkai literature), Six Bases, and Eighteen Dhatus. None of these are "seed".

At the heart of these dharmas (factors of existence) are those related to consciousness. And this is the main element in understanding how the process takes place in Buddhism.

"Consciousness" in Buddhism is the product of contact between a "sense subject" and a "sense object". When there is contact, a sensation arises, from the sensation a perception, from this a volition and from this a consciousness.

This consciousness, in the constant flux of existential "becoming", will be marked by some specific characteristic. This mark is the karmic "seed", which works as a cause for an effect, as long as the right conditions exist.

So that's what the way to achieve Buddhist enlightenment is thought of. The first step for this process to be carried out is to bring out a consciousness marked with the characteristic that drives sentient beings to seek the Buddhist path.

Since the emergence of a consciousness is related to the contact between subject and object, this "Buddha" consciousness can only arise when there is contact between a Buddha and a sentient being.

Thus, it is said that the seed is planted when a relationship is established with a "good friend".

This is the general perspective of Buddhism.

Nichiren's perspective is derived from the same framework, and it does not completely break with the teachings of the Sutras. Opposition to the other Sutra is related to the precepts and meditation aspect, but the basic wisdom present in the Sutras is not abandoned.

The problem, however, that Nichiren presents is related to the need for direct contact with the "Buddha mind", which is the Lotus Sutra (not the text, but the experience caused by contact with the text, more specifically with the images of the Honmon section of the text).

The contact that gives rise to this awareness marked by the mind of the Buddha is the practitioner's contact with the experience of the Air ceremony. And this can only be done through a "good friend" who has inherited this ceremony (ie Nichiren and his disciples as bodhisattvas on earth).

From the general perspective of Buddhism this is unnecessary, for, as the Lotus Sutra itself says, the Buddha's cessation is only an illusion of the ignorant mind, the Shakyamuni Buddha of the remote past is always present, and all living beings are earthly bodhisattvas who only need to make their "seeds" sprout.

But from Nichiren's perspective, this is no longer valid because once we enter the era of the end of Dharma, where Shakyamuni's heritage has disappeared, there are no longer conditions that allow for the emergence of earth bodhisattvas, only icchantikas, who did not have this contact with the Air ceremony.

Thus, the essential Buddhist task for the era of the end of Dharma is to create an alternative that enables evil beings who are born in this era, the icchantikas, to access the Sutra, establish this contact and raise awareness with the qualities of the Buddha. .
----------------------------

The other perspective, rivaling Nichiren, the Pure Land, is based on the same logic. The beings of today have no way to develop this awareness, so his only solution would be to establish contact with Amida Buddha, this contact would lead him to Sukhavati and there he would have the ability to have access to the Lotus Sutra.

[note: this is the perspective based on the sutras, using as an example the solution that Shakyamuni Buddha offers to the vaidehi queen who, due to her karma, did not have the opportunity to be on eagle's peak while the Buddha preached the Sutra of Lotus. In this way, Shakyamuni Buddha taught her that she should awaken faith in Amida Buddha, be reborn in Sukhavati and there have access to the mind of Buddha, the Lotus Sutra. By extension, everything that is applicable to Vaidehi and applicable to beings with its same characteristics, the icchantikas of the end of Dharma age].
------------------------------

This particularity of Nichiren, however, still does not break with the general perspective of enlightenment in Buddhism, which continues to follow the logic:

1) establishing contact between the sentient being and the Buddha
2) application of perfect attention
3) development of realization in breaking the shackles

The only thing that is specified in Nichiren is the nature of this contact for beings at the end of Dharma. In general terms Nichiren did not create a new religion.
Basically agreed. The meaning of the Buddhism of the Sowing and the Buddhism of the Harvest is not that there are two different Buddhisms, the Buddhism of Shakyamuni and the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin. It means that this Latter Day is for sowing the seeds of Buddhahood, not for harvesting the seeds. Nichiren is clear that Myoho renge kyo is the seed. He is also clear that those who chant Namu Myoho renge kyo with the same mind is he are Bodhisattvas of the Earth.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by seeker242 »

narhwal90 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:00 pm Dogen held it in high regard, perhaps in part due to his Tendai antecedents.
Pretty sure every zen tradition, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, etc. holds it in high regard. :smile:
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

seeker242 wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:44 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:00 pm Dogen held it in high regard, perhaps in part due to his Tendai antecedents.
Pretty sure every zen tradition, Korean, Japanese, Chinese, etc. holds it in high regard. :smile:
Traditionally, three sutras were propagated throughout East Asia for the protection and prosperity of the societies - The Lotus, Golden Light and Humane Kings Sutras.

It should be noted, in most Buddhist traditions, just because one sutra or another is considered definitive doesn't mean that others are not to be respected and held in high regard. Nichiren practitioners tend to fall into the fault of looking down or being dismissive of sutras other than the Lotus. This is unfortunate and comes from Nichiren's own comments that IMHO have been misinterpreted. Of course Nichiren emphasized the Lotus and declared all other teachings provisional, but he himself still held the entire corpus of Buddhist sutras in high regard because these are the words of the Buddha - they are srarira, remains of the Buddha in this world. To view a teaching as provisional simply means that it is incomplete, not that it is wrong.

Moreover, in Lotus school teachings, when provisional teachings are "opened" through the definitive teachings, they also become definitive. To open a teaching is to reveal its true context, its real meaning in relation to the One Vehicle. This is one of the messages of the Lotus - when the Buddha reveals his real identity in the Life Span chapter and explains all of his activities, all of the provisional teachings, the so-called Three Vehicles, are revealed to be actually taught from the view of the One Vehicle, albeit "according to the minds of others." "According to the mind of others" means that the Buddha explains the One Vehicle in terms and conventions that ordinary beings can understand. The Sudden and Perfect teaching, in contrast, the true One Vehicle, is said to be taught according to the Buddha's wisdom. It is the True Aspect of Reality (実相) (among other descriptive terms by which it is referred to in discourse).

The only way to receive this teaching is to encounter and receive it directly from the Buddha. In the Lotus, this transmission occurs at the Ceremony in the Air. In Nichiren's teachings, this transmission is what is depicted on his Gohonzon, and when a person chants the daimoku in front of that mandala, they participate in that transmission and receive it.

As such, it behooves Nichiren practitioners, if they have the capacity, inclination, and leisure, to study and understand the entire corpus of the Buddhist teachings, respecting and holding them in the highest regards as Nichiren did - even those wonderful Pure Land teachings. The Tientai classification systems of Four Teachings, Four Methods of Teaching, Five Flavors/Periods, etc. provide the framework for understanding how various teachings relate to the One Vehicle of the Lotus.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

Ronny,

Following up on your characterization of "consciousness" as arising through contact between sense organ and sense object, and my critique that what is referred to as "Mystical Principle" is not of that category, I refer you to the 12 linked chain of causation.

To review, it goes like this:

Ignorance (Avidya) gives rise to volitional formations (Samskara), which give rise to consciousness (Vijnana), which gives rise to Name-and-form (Nama-Rupa), which gives rise to the six sense bases (Sadayatana - ie. eyes, ears, nose, mouth, body, mind), which gives rise to contact (Sparsa), which gives rise to sensation (Vedana), which gives rise to Craving (Tanha), which gives rise to Clinging (Upadana), which gives rise to being (Bhava), which gives rise to Birth, which gives rise to Death. Rinse and repeat.

Buddhanature is something different. Its the ground in which these 12 nidana function when ignorance is present.

In the Lotus Traditions, Buddhanature is said to be Threefold - Buddhanature as the Direct Cause, Buddhanature as the Complete Cause, and Buddhanature as the Variable Cause. Though distinguished, these are fundamentally not different from each other.

The Direct Cause is reality itself. The Complete Cause is the intrinsic luminosity of reality. Zhiyi describes these two aspects of Buddhanature in Xue i san mei (Explanation of the Samadhi of Being Fully Aware of Your Thoughts, from the Pancavimsati sahasriksa prajnaparamita sutra, Swanson, Clear Serenity, Quiet Insight, p. 1760)(One might recognize the opening lines as nearly identical to Nichiren's On Attaining Buddhahood in this Life Time... "If a practitioner wishes to cross over the great sea of life and death and ascend to the other shore of nirvana, you must certainly fully comprehend..."/"If you wish to free yourself from the sufferings of birth and death you have endured since time without beginning and to attain without fail unsurpassed enlightenment in this lifetime, you must perceive...") using the metaphor of the sky and sun. The Sky is like the Direct Cause, while the Sun which illuminates the Sky is the Complete Cause.

What does that mean? This means that reality has the capacity to recognize itself (一念法界 one thought-moment coextensive with the dharma realm). This reality is what we as living beings actually are.

The Buddhanature as Variable Cause is the dynamic aspect of Buddhanature.

When ignorance clouds the Buddhanature, the alienation of subject (I) and object (not I) arises. That alienation is the basis of samsara.

This alienation is ameliorated by dispersing ignorance about the Buddhanature, when a Buddha who has resolved this alienation themselves, points out the Buddhanature and thereby shows us our reality. Nichiren asserted that the Daimoku is the thought-moment when the Buddhanature, and thus the resolution of alienation, is first shown to living beings.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by ronnymarsh »

I don't get your point. What are you trying to say?
I am used to understanding in my native language (Portuguese), where we have two distinct verbs for "to be": /SER/ (which indicates the ontological quality of something) and /ESTAR/ (which indicates a transitory state of being).
In Chinese there is something similar, like the verbs Shì 是 (to be/SER) and Zài 在 (to be/ESTAR).
Thus, when one says in English "Buddhanature is...", the verb "is" can be understood as indicating an "ontological" quality (Buddhanature BE emptiness...) or an "epistemological" quality (Buddhanature ESTAR emptiness. ..) Given these characteristics of English (and most non-Latin languages), it is easy to misunderstand and understand the subject of emptiness from a point of view that is not what Buddhism teaches, and thus confuse with what Taoism and Kabbalah teach.

In these two systems there is also a notion of "emptyness", however they are not the same thing as in Buddhism. In both Tao and Kabbalah, "emptyness" is THE "thing", The real nature of everything that exists. But in Buddhism "emptyness" is just the "real state" of things, not the things themselves. In Portuguese this is easily understood because we say "things /BEING/ emptiness" in the Taoist/Kabbalist notion, while we say "things /BEING/ emptiness" in the Buddhist notion.
You might consider trying to understand these writings of Nichiren through the teachings and texts of the Tientai/Tendai Lotus School which a survey of Nichiren's writings will show he in fact based his teachings on. This text you cite, Totaigisho, itself cites several Tientai texts, but makes no reference to Awakening of Faith. Awakening of Faith has no place in the Lotus traditions, including Nichiren.
Within Mahayana we have two perspectives on complete reality. The one provided by the Madhyamaka and the one provided by the Yogacara.

Nichiren's lineage is from Tientai, and it is from Kumarajiva, the founder of the Sanron school [Three Treatises], therefore a proponent of a Madhyamaka view.

Meanwhile, the Treatise on the Awakening of the Mahayana Faith, is probably a text originating from Paramartha, the founder of the Faxiang/Hosso [Characteristic of Dharmas] school, therefore, a proponent of a Yogacara vision.

Looking at this configuration it is easy to be led by the conclusion that Tientai and, consequently, Nichiren would be adherents of a strict Madhymaka view. However, this is not the case.

The only school in Mahayana today that can be classified as such is the Gelug school, that of the Dalai Lama, which makes it very popular and ends up guiding the understanding of what Buddhism would be for Westerners.

But the strict Madhyamaka school, Sanron, is as much a target of criticism by Nichiren (as well as by Tiantai) as the Pure Land school, and what they propose is a Yogacara-Madhyamaka synthesis which in essence is yogacara, but using the madhyamaka verbiage.

Chi'i, for example, transforms the Two Truths of Nagarjuna into "Three Truths", in which each truth corresponds exactly to each of the "Three Natures" of the Yogacara doctrine.

The fact that the tiantai tradition did not read the Qishinlun is simply due to the fact that Chi'i, the third patriarch, was a contemporary of Paramartha, which means that the work was not widely circulated when the school was founded and when it was founded. highest expression.
However, the same truths found in the Awakening of Faith are found in Tiantai and Nichiren, though with different nomenclatures.

On this point, there is a Gosho where Nichiren deals with the origin of the Awakening of Faith teachings and other affiliation texts.
yogacara: https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd- ... 61#para-36

Here, the questioner asks:
When teachers of the Flower Garland School come to interpret the passage in the Flower Garland Sutra that reads, “The mind, the Buddha, and all living beings—these three are without distinction,” they take it to refer to three things, the one mind [of the individual], the enlightenment [of the Buddha], and the lack of enlightenment [of living beings]. In interpreting this passage, they are borrowing the terminology found originally in The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana.
And Nichiren explains this issue in terms that the real development of this idea is Chi'i and that the others "stole" from him.
The scholars of the Flower Garland school in the period following the time of T'ien-t'ai and those of the True Word school speak as though the doctrine of the evil inherent in the Buddha's mind were expounded in the sutras that form the basis of their own respective schools. Is this some interpretation derived from Indian sources, or does it derive from the founders of these schools? Or does it mean that they have stolen the term “evil inherent in the Buddha's mind” from T’ien-t’ai and made it appear that it is part of the doctrine of their own school? One should examine this question very carefully.
The text is not an important source for the Lotus tradition, but the ideas contained in them are essentially belonging to this tradition.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by illarraza »

ronnymarsh wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:08 pm
I don't get your point. What are you trying to say?
I am used to understanding in my native language (Portuguese), where we have two distinct verbs for "to be": /SER/ (which indicates the ontological quality of something) and /ESTAR/ (which indicates a transitory state of being).
In Chinese there is something similar, like the verbs Shì 是 (to be/SER) and Zài 在 (to be/ESTAR).
Thus, when one says in English "Buddhanature is...", the verb "is" can be understood as indicating an "ontological" quality (Buddhanature BE emptiness...) or an "epistemological" quality (Buddhanature ESTAR emptiness. ..) Given these characteristics of English (and most non-Latin languages), it is easy to misunderstand and understand the subject of emptiness from a point of view that is not what Buddhism teaches, and thus confuse with what Taoism and Kabbalah teach.

In these two systems there is also a notion of "emptyness", however they are not the same thing as in Buddhism. In both Tao and Kabbalah, "emptyness" is THE "thing", The real nature of everything that exists. But in Buddhism "emptyness" is just the "real state" of things, not the things themselves. In Portuguese this is easily understood because we say "things /BEING/ emptiness" in the Taoist/Kabbalist notion, while we say "things /BEING/ emptiness" in the Buddhist notion.
You might consider trying to understand these writings of Nichiren through the teachings and texts of the Tientai/Tendai Lotus School which a survey of Nichiren's writings will show he in fact based his teachings on. This text you cite, Totaigisho, itself cites several Tientai texts, but makes no reference to Awakening of Faith. Awakening of Faith has no place in the Lotus traditions, including Nichiren.
Within Mahayana we have two perspectives on complete reality. The one provided by the Madhyamaka and the one provided by the Yogacara.

Nichiren's lineage is from Tientai, and it is from Kumarajiva, the founder of the Sanron school [Three Treatises], therefore a proponent of a Madhyamaka view.

Meanwhile, the Treatise on the Awakening of the Mahayana Faith, is probably a text originating from Paramartha, the founder of the Faxiang/Hosso [Characteristic of Dharmas] school, therefore, a proponent of a Yogacara vision.

Looking at this configuration it is easy to be led by the conclusion that Tientai and, consequently, Nichiren would be adherents of a strict Madhymaka view. However, this is not the case.

The only school in Mahayana today that can be classified as such is the Gelug school, that of the Dalai Lama, which makes it very popular and ends up guiding the understanding of what Buddhism would be for Westerners.

But the strict Madhyamaka school, Sanron, is as much a target of criticism by Nichiren (as well as by Tiantai) as the Pure Land school, and what they propose is a Yogacara-Madhyamaka synthesis which in essence is yogacara, but using the madhyamaka verbiage.

Chi'i, for example, transforms the Two Truths of Nagarjuna into "Three Truths", in which each truth corresponds exactly to each of the "Three Natures" of the Yogacara doctrine.

The fact that the tiantai tradition did not read the Qishinlun is simply due to the fact that Chi'i, the third patriarch, was a contemporary of Paramartha, which means that the work was not widely circulated when the school was founded and when it was founded. highest expression.
However, the same truths found in the Awakening of Faith are found in Tiantai and Nichiren, though with different nomenclatures.

On this point, there is a Gosho where Nichiren deals with the origin of the Awakening of Faith teachings and other affiliation texts.
yogacara: https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd- ... 61#para-36

Here, the questioner asks:
When teachers of the Flower Garland School come to interpret the passage in the Flower Garland Sutra that reads, “The mind, the Buddha, and all living beings—these three are without distinction,” they take it to refer to three things, the one mind [of the individual], the enlightenment [of the Buddha], and the lack of enlightenment [of living beings]. In interpreting this passage, they are borrowing the terminology found originally in The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana.
And Nichiren explains this issue in terms that the real development of this idea is Chi'i and that the others "stole" from him.
The scholars of the Flower Garland school in the period following the time of T'ien-t'ai and those of the True Word school speak as though the doctrine of the evil inherent in the Buddha's mind were expounded in the sutras that form the basis of their own respective schools. Is this some interpretation derived from Indian sources, or does it derive from the founders of these schools? Or does it mean that they have stolen the term “evil inherent in the Buddha's mind” from T’ien-t’ai and made it appear that it is part of the doctrine of their own school? One should examine this question very carefully.
The text is not an important source for the Lotus tradition, but the ideas contained in them are essentially belonging to this tradition.
Nichiren was quite critical of the Hosso (Dharma Characteristics School), calling it worse than the non-Buddhist teachings because of its Five Natures Doctrine which denied Buddhahood for those of two of five natures. As far as their Madhyamaka doctrine, he contrasted it to Tientai's superior Three Truth doctrine. The Lotus Sutra, as you know, predicts Buddhahood for all who even hear Myoho renge kyo but once, even for those who commit the Five Cardinal Sins and incorrigible disbelievers.

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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Aemilius »

Venerable Hsuan Hua from the City of Ten Thousand Buddhas has given a thorough commentary to the White Lotus sutra. I have read the seven first volumes when they came out in 1970's and early 1980's. They have kept on publishing Ven. Hua's teachings of the Lotus at a steady pace and now the volumes XV and XIV have come out.

"Get a first look into The Wonderful Dharma Lotus Sutra (Volume XV), one of our newest publications translated by the International Institute for the Translation of Buddhist Texts.
The sutra-text only Volume XV contains a new English translation and Master Kumarajiva’s Chinese. The Venerable Master Hsuan Hua’s thorough commentary translated into English is available as a fourteen-volume box set. The print versions are discounted on Amazon in the U.S. until September 30th.
Find the books:
Volume XV (ISBN: 1642171018)
Master Hua’s Commentary (ISBN: 1642171190) "

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"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

ronnymarsh wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 9:08 pm
Chi'i, for example, transforms the Two Truths of Nagarjuna into "Three Truths", in which each truth corresponds exactly to each of the "Three Natures" of the Yogacara doctrine.
No. You are mistaken.

Too bad it's not available online anymore but Jikai Dehn, a Tendai priest, published part of a study guide of the Makashikan and specifically compared the three natures to the three truths. In short, he acknowledged that they address similar issues but are otherwise not similar.
When teachers of the Flower Garland School come to interpret the passage in the Flower Garland Sutra that reads, “The mind, the Buddha, and all living beings—these three are without distinction,” they take it to refer to three things, the one mind [of the individual], the enlightenment [of the Buddha], and the lack of enlightenment [of living beings]. In interpreting this passage, they are borrowing the terminology found originally in The Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana.
And Nichiren explains this issue in terms that the real development of this idea is Chi'i and that the others "stole" from him.
The scholars of the Flower Garland school in the period following the time of T'ien-t'ai and those of the True Word school speak as though the doctrine of the evil inherent in the Buddha's mind were expounded in the sutras that form the basis of their own respective schools. Is this some interpretation derived from Indian sources, or does it derive from the founders of these schools? Or does it mean that they have stolen the term “evil inherent in the Buddha's mind” from T’ien-t’ai and made it appear that it is part of the doctrine of their own school? One should examine this question very carefully.
The text is not an important source for the Lotus tradition, but the ideas contained in them are essentially belonging to this tradition.
No. You misunderstand that gosho and you misunderstand the underlying material.

That passage is about a passage from the Avatamsaka being interpreted differently in the Tientai and Flower Garland schools. You left out this part of the passage that actually gives the answer to the question:
Volume one of The Annotations on “Great Concentration and Insight” states: “If one does not understand the meaning of the various passages on the perfect principle of our [T’ien-t’ai] school, then the principle behind this verse passage from the [Flower Garland] sutra [on the mind, Buddha, and living beings] will be truly difficult to fathom.” And volume five of the same work states: “If one does not understand T’ien-t’ai’s passage on the three thousand realms in a single moment of life, then how can one make any sense of the Flower Garland Sutra when it says, ‘Thus of all the phenomena throughout the entire world, there is not a single one that is not created by the mind. . . . The mind, the Buddha, and all living beings—these three are without distinction’?” And volume seven of On “The Words and Phrases” states: “The term ‘evil inherent in the Buddha’s mind’ is not found in the writings of any of the other schools.”

From these passages just quoted, it is apparent that unless one understands T’ien-t’ai’s interpretation of the passage, it is very difficult to understand the true meaning of the verse passage in the Flower Garland Sutra that we have been discussing. Moreover, among the Buddhist teachers of China, there are none other than T’ien-t’ai who employ the term “evil inherent in the Buddha’s mind.” And if one does not have reference to the Lotus Sutra, one cannot begin to discuss the doctrine of three thousand realms in a single moment of life.
What he is saying is that the interpretation by the Flower Garland school are useless.

And bring me back to my point - Awakening of Faith is useless to interpret Tientai and Nichiren. Just look at the source material - look at the texts Nichiren actually quotes and you'll see very clearly which texts he thought were relevant and useful.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Minobu »

Thus of all the phenomena throughout the entire world, there is not a single one that is not created by the mind.
Vedic teachings tell us that when Lord Vishnu sleeps , the dream He has is the reality we dwell in.

So I am assuming this is what Nichiren implies.

also Quantum Physics dictates that all phenomena are acting like Thought.
just saying.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:23 pm
Thus of all the phenomena throughout the entire world, there is not a single one that is not created by the mind.
Vedic teachings tell us that when Lord Vishnu sleeps , the dream He has is the reality we dwell in.

So I am assuming this is what Nichiren implies.
Not really.

All of this is your dream, not Vishnu's.

Just look at the sources Nichiren cites to understand what he means.

He's not relying on quantum physics or the Dao of Pooh. He's explaining in terms of ichinen sanzen. He states this explicitly throughout his writings.

Is this too obvious? Is this why people keep looking for explanations outside of the cited sources?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 5:39 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 4:23 pm
Thus of all the phenomena throughout the entire world, there is not a single one that is not created by the mind.
Vedic teachings tell us that when Lord Vishnu sleeps , the dream He has is the reality we dwell in.

So I am assuming this is what Nichiren implies.
Not really.

All of this is your dream, not Vishnu's.

Just look at the sources Nichiren cites to understand what he means.

He's not relying on quantum physics or the Dao of Pooh. He's explaining in terms of ichinen sanzen. He states this explicitly throughout his writings.

Is this too obvious? Is this why people keep looking for explanations outside of the cited sources?
I think we could all do without the sarcasm.

And sorry for mentioning quantum physics . you took it wrong or what ever....


I'm just showing you what Buddhism is actually based on, and where it is derived from.


I was never under the impression that Nichiren even considered Vedic teachings and yet He places their gods on gohonzon.

It isn't necessary to place all of them. But He does recognize the Arya Vedas , and rightly so.

so this opened up to me exactly what Nichiren was learned about and not what people wanted me to believe He was all about.

I don't have a problem with ichinen sanzen and it's relationship with all that is.

Ichinen sanzen does not negate Vedic teachings which are intrinsic to Buddhism, and more appropriately Nichiren's Dharma and what he learned.

I think he left Tendai due to the fact it is one pointed and he is multi faceted in his understanding.

He has a much broader view , proof in His dharma and where it is at today.
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Aemilius »

I thought that the deities in Nichiren's Gohonzon are from the Tantric Buddhism that had reached Japan. Shakyamuni also mentions deities occasionally in his sutra teachings, like Indra alias Sakra, Brahma, Brahma-sahampati, the Earth goddess Dridha, the Thirty-three gods in Trayastrimsa heaven and so on.. and yet he considers himself to be a Buddha!
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Queequeg »

Aemilius wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:00 am I thought that the deities in Nichiren's Gohonzon are from the Tantric Buddhism that had reached Japan. Shakyamuni also mentions deities occasionally in his sutra teachings, like Indra alias Sakra, Brahma, Brahma-sahampati, the Earth goddess Dridha, the Thirty-three gods in Trayastrimsa heaven and so on.. and yet he considers himself to be a Buddha!
Right, but not necessarily from tantra. In many sutras including the lotus various Indian gods pledge to protect Buddhist practitioners. That's why they are protecting the four corners/directions on the mandala. This is standard Buddhist iconography.

There is also the aspect of the mandala that it is a representation of ichinen sanzen. The deities are present to indicate they are mutually arisen with the ten worlds.

Again, it shows there is no need to rely on extrinsic sources to understand what is going on.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:22 am
Aemilius wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:00 am I thought that the deities in Nichiren's Gohonzon are from the Tantric Buddhism that had reached Japan. Shakyamuni also mentions deities occasionally in his sutra teachings, like Indra alias Sakra, Brahma, Brahma-sahampati, the Earth goddess Dridha, the Thirty-three gods in Trayastrimsa heaven and so on.. and yet he considers himself to be a Buddha!
Right, but not necessarily from tantra. In many sutras including the lotus various Indian gods pledge to protect Buddhist practitioners. That's why they are protecting the four corners/directions on the mandala. This is standard Buddhist iconography.

There is also the aspect of the mandala that it is a representation of ichinen sanzen. The deities are present to indicate they are mutually arisen with the ten worlds.

Again, it shows there is no need to rely on extrinsic sources to understand what is going on.
why would you refer to the reality from which we live in as extrinsic ?

There must be a reason why Nichiren did not even ask of His students to study TenDai.
He seems to feel even the meditation Tendai focuses on is not of importance in the long run.

He merely gave it "If you wish to do it attitude" and only after you do the real practice of Odaimoku and gongyo with study and faith.
Even though He teaches ichinen sanzen it's like it is just a view and not something to devote yourself to in meditation and practice.I get the impression it's like more of a hobby than actual practice for His Students.

I get the idea that all He asks of us is a basic understanding of Ichinen sanzen in order to incorporate into the paradigm.

Yeah there are ten worlds in the view , but the practice goes far beyond this .

In fact i had no idea of Ichinen sanzen when I watched my father's bone marrow come back to life from a state of absolute dead bone marrow not producing a single cell. To everything being produced albeit totally mutated and a wonder to the doctors.

All this recorded by radio CBC . The world tribune had a field day with it world wide back in the 70's.


so it seems the basic view is all that is necessary in Nichiren's Dharma.
narhwal90
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Re: Does one have to be part of a Nichiren sect to follow/devote onself to the Lotus Sutra and what it teaches?

Post by narhwal90 »

As per the Mandala Workshop books, extensive dialog persisted between the Nichiren schools and Tendai for centuries after Nichiren passed- and many of his goshos are letters detailing conversations with Tendai monks. As I understand it back in the day Tendai was not available to regular folks, but for those with access a relationship clearly existed- ie you had to be weathly, noble, powerful to do much of anything in Tendai.

In the goshos Nichiren permits study and meditation beyond daimoku and sutra recitation for those with the means.
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