The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

illarraza
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The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by illarraza »

Someone asked me about the difference between a Nichikan Gohonzon and a Nichiren Koan Era (1279-1281) Ten World Gohonzon.

The Nichiren's Koan Era Ten World Gohonzon was the culmination and quintessence of Nichiren's teachings, his faith, and understanding.

https://markrogow.blogspot.com/2020/08/ ... ginal.html

Here is both a diagram of the Nichikan Five or Six World Gohonzon and a Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon, The Gohonzon for the Transmission of the Dharma:

https://markrogow.blogspot.com/2020/03/ ... -with.html

In the following diagram of the Nichikan Gohonzon, SGI mistakenly asserts that the Nichikan Gohonzon is a Ten World Gohonzon (see below).

For example, SGI states that Kishimojin is a representative of "the Worlds of Hunger, Animality, and Anger" when in reality, she only represents the World of Hunger (Avarice). On the Ten World Nichiren Gohonzon there are Asuras who represent the World of Anger and Kishimojin who alone represents the World of Hunger. SGI states that one of the Great Heavenly Kings represents the World of Humanity. How can a god represent the World of Humanity? Gods represent the World of Rapture. On the Ten World Nichiren Gohonzon is found a human representative of the World of Humanity, King Ajatshatru. Likewise, SGI asserts that the King Devil of the Sixth Heaven represents the World of Hell but everyone knows Devedatta is THE representative of the World of Hell. The King Devil of the Sixth Heaven is another representative of the World of Rapture (gods). SGI labels Bodhisattva Jogyo as representing the Worlds of Bodhisattva, Learning, and Self Realization while on the Ten World Gohonzon, there actually are the Men of Learning (Shariputra) and Self Realization (Mahakashyapa). This means that the Nichikan Gohonzon is, at most, a Six world Gohonzon. Also please note that Namu is affixed on a Ten World Nichiren Gohonzon, not only to those of the Worlds of Buddha and Bodhisattva but all the representatives of the Four Noble Worlds including the two Worlds of Learning and Self Realization, absent on the Nichikan Gohonzon.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view ... ajaxserp=0

Even as early as 2006, SGI mistakenly asserted that the Nichikan Gohonzon was a Ten World Gohonzon, stating for example that Shariputra, Ajatshatru and Devedatta were on the Nichikan Gohonzon;

http://www.gakkaionline.net/imagery/2ndRow.html
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

Examination of the Mandala Workshop text shows Of the approx 120 surviving Nichiren originals over the 3 periods, Sariputra is on 66, Ajatashatru on 41, Devadatta on 40 (though on none from the Kenji period) The only characters on all of them are the daimoku themselves. I wonder how important these distinctions are if Nichiren's show such variability.
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

sooo

is the Shutei gohonzon a ten world gohonzon ?

i don't think i really get the concept...

my only worries about the SGI gohonzon is that they actually sort of redacted the gohonzon...

apparently Lord Manjushri Buddha is taken away...

their must be a reason to do so...hopefully not replacing Ikeda as a teacher...like we got ikeda so why bother with Lord Manjushri...that might sound sarcastic...but due to the nature of SGI one wonders ..

cause it is weird not to have this Buddha on gohonzon...

also in regards to Lady Kishimojin Buddha , i read somewhere, is an emanation of Lord Avalokiteshvara Buddha , hence the absence of this Buddha inscribed on any gohonzon....seeing how important a Buddha of compassion is to have as a generator of compassion on one's gohonzon .

so maybe Lady Kishimojin is a Wrathful aspect of Buddha Avalokiteshvara ?


which sort of goes against illarazza's concept of Her.

I've always had an affinity towards Her for some reason....maybe cause my first chant was Om Mani Padme Hum...

i actually chanted that all the way from the go train station at union station to meeting my friend on yonge st...where i was shakkabukkued just before going in to meet him at a now defunct restaurant...Manny's.....
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

Of his approx 120 surviving originals, Nichiren put Manjushri on 68 of them, in all 3 periods- so again, why is this important and if Nichiren included Manjushri on only some of his own gohonzons, what does Mr Ikeda have to do with it?

Kishimogin is on 99 of them, over all 3 periods. Sakyamuni and Taho are on 122 .
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:51 pm Of his approx 120 surviving originals, Nichiren put Manjushri on 68 of them, in all 3 periods- so again, why is this important and if Nichiren included Manjushri on only some of his own gohonzons, what does Mr Ikeda have to do with it?

Kishimogin is on 99 of them, over all 3 periods.

A quick look down the list shows quite a few others occurring more frequently than those discussed so far in this thread.
well i just am suspicious of choosing a Gohonzon without Manjushri..
like why?
and i'm sure ikeda had something to do with the choosing...

i realize that gohonzon got bigger and bigger as He went along...

once He inserted Lord Manjushri Buddha on gohonzon ...did He continue to do so all the time ?

or did He create some without it as He made some with ?
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

So the SGI gohonzon is a Nichiren shoshu made gohonzon ...

it's not a Nichiren Gohonzon.
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

narhwal90 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:51 pm Of his approx 120 surviving originals, Nichiren put Manjushri on 68 of them, in all 3 periods
See above. Apparently Nichiren didnt think Manjushri's presence was crucial.
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

Gohonzons that are inscribed by Nichiren are Buddhas.

There are probably way more attributes He could have inscribed...by using various Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to show their values in being a Buddha..

The Namu MyoHo Renge Kyo is the Buddha of the Lotus sutra...The Buddha for the Latter Day of The Law..

all else is just there to help generate what is their in all of us...and teach us what is there in all of us...

We are not actually The Buddha of The Lotus sutra...we are disciples and students of this Buddha...

everyone living now is a child to this Buddha...

but everything that a Buddha is ,we are in potential...because it is all there for we are like junk Buddhas ..tarnished and purifying with practice.


so getting to what is a ten world and not a ten world gohonzon....is this something Nichiren taught or is this something that someone came up with after Nichiren...an observation if you will ?
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:11 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:51 pm Of his approx 120 surviving originals, Nichiren put Manjushri on 68 of them, in all 3 periods
See above. Apparently Nichiren didnt think Manjushri's presence was crucial.
anything He ever placed on gohonzon is not about being crucial...it is about what a Buddha is....All contained in Namu MyoHo RenGe Kyo..

the date of inscription and the various lineage masters are a matter of historic reference to the Lotus sutra and It's periods. .
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

if thats so, then why have any figures at all beyond the daimoku? IIRC there is one gohonzon with only the daimoku, though there are disagreements about its provenance.

Incan che k when i get home, but there are also stone stele just containing the daimoku... lacking all the other composition, how are they to be viewed?
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:24 pm if thats so, then why have any figures at all beyond the daimoku? IIRC there is one gohonzon with only the daimoku, though there are disagreements about its provenance.

Incan che k when i get home, but there are also stone stele just containing the daimoku... lacking all the other composition, how are they to be viewed?
i recall and have via coffeehouse and your link...Gohonzon with like the Odaimoku and a couple of characters.

this is why i see the ODaimoku as the Buddha and everything else a learning thing or generate this aspect .

once you know what is there on various gohonzon ...you learn and that helps....


Nichiren did stuff we just don't get...it's been so long people forgot too ....and did not think how these questions would arise 800 years after the fact...

the thing is i might be wrong , i've asked this here a few times..I believe i read it somewhere..but it could be just more anti SGI stuff..which can't be helped after they did what they did in order to become sovereign lol..

did they remove Manjushri Buddha from the ?gohonzon they now use ...is Lord Manjushri Buddha there on the original Shoshu gohonzon housed somewhere...I heard they removed the signature of the high priest that inscribed it as well...are these rumours or fact?
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by illarraza »

narhwal90 wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:57 pm Examination of the Mandala Workshop text shows Of the approx 120 surviving Nichiren originals over the 3 periods, Sariputra is on 66, Ajatashatru on 41, Devadatta on 40 (though on none from the Kenji period) The only characters on all of them are the daimoku themselves. I wonder how important these distinctions are if Nichiren's show such variability.
It is not so much the superiority of one Gohonzon or the other, though SGI must believe so, or why would they claim something about the Nichikan Gohonzon that was untrue? Twice on official SGI studies they make the claim. Do you know the latest explanation? "The Nichikan Gohonzon is a Ten World Gohonzon because Namu Myoho renge kyo contains all Ten Worlds." From a theoretical standpoint, yes. However, from an actual standpoint no.

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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by illarraza »

I don't think most of you are getting it or deflecting the issue. why tell the members something that makes it seem that the Nichikan Gohonzon is a Ten World Gohonzon. Reverend Kubota's explanation is rather clear. There are Ten World Gohonzons: Some with only Namu Myoho renge kyo; some with only the Daimoku and protectors gods (Two World Gohonzons); some like the SGI Gohonzon and the Mannen Kugo Gohonzon, with Six Worlds; and some like the Gohonzons for the Transmission of the Dharma and the Shutei Gohonzon that are Ten World Gohonzons. Regarding the effectiveness of the various Gohonzons, suffice it to say, according to Nichiren, "Unless one who has grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra conducts the eye-opening ceremony for a wooden or painted image, it will be as if a masterless house were to be occupied by a thief, or as if, upon death, a demon were to take possession of one’s body." Therefore, what is imbued into the object, depends on weather or not the one who performs the ceremony has grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra. I am uncertain whether Nichiren has delineated the form of the ceremony. Even if it is as simple as chanting the Daimoku and reciting the Sutra, the one who has performed it, for the Gohonzon to be effective, must have grasped the essence of the Sutra. For Nichiren to have written this instruction, there must have been those inscribing Gohonzon and performing the Eye Opening Ceremony, those such as Sammibo, who failed to have grasped the essence of the Sutra. The question arises, Is copy of a Gohonzon, equally imbued with the activating power and influence as the original Gohonzon. I would like to know what everyone thinks.
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by illarraza »

narhwal90 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 5:24 pm if thats so, then why have any figures at all beyond the daimoku? IIRC there is one gohonzon with only the daimoku, though there are disagreements about its provenance.

Incan che k when i get home, but there are also stone stele just containing the daimoku... lacking all the other composition, how are they to be viewed?
Yes there are tobas all over Japan with just the Daimoku, and Nichiren asserts that just by seeing, or even touching them, one will eventually attain Buddhahood. I imagine, his instruction regarding Gohonzon that the one who fashions these (usually a priest), need to have grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra. I think a priest can answer these questions. I have been critical about the Nichiren Shoshu but their priests seem to have the best theoretical understandings of these things. I will post and example.
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

I could well imagine variations of the composition being skillful means; some people will care some won't, and for those who do perhaps the selection of notables might inspire interest and consequently practice. Perhaps the selection of notables might be tailored to the interests and focus of the first conferee. Talking about some gohonzons being more effective than others on the basis of a ceremony seems very much like seeking the gohonzon outside oneself.

Personally I don't care a bit about 10 world vs 6 world gohonzons. The win is sitting in front of my old gohonzon and doing gongyo and chanting, and showing up for the district meetings and so on.
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

I have to admit...that my original Nittatsu gohonzon seems to be way different than this shutei gohonzon image on my computer.
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

Those two resemble each other more than some created by disciples over the first few generations after Nichiren. Back in the day there were only a few ways to make them so quite a few original versions were created in addition to the copies of older ones. Nikko is credited with the most originals by his hand, some only created a few. Several were painted on silk. After a few generations a trend towards copying and more standard compositions developed, resulting in forms more like what we see today; design elements drawn from potentially several gohonzons, less idiosyncrasy.
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:47 pm Those two resemble each other more than some created by disciples over the first few generations after Nichiren. Back in the day there were only a few ways to make them so quite a few original versions were created in addition to the copies of older ones. Nikko is credited with the most originals by his hand, some only created a few. Several were painted on silk. After a few generations a trend towards copying and more standard compositions developed, resulting in forms more like what we see today; design elements drawn from potentially several gohonzons, less idiosyncrasy.
I was referring to the Nittatsu being more of a what a Gohonzon is supposed to be. The image on my screen j
Never felt like the same feeling I had with my Nittatsu
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

soooo this concept of the OP...ten world / six world gohonzon ...

where did Nichiren Daishonin write about this.

or is this something people sort of deducted after Nichiren passed away.
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Re: The Nichikan Six World Gohonzon and the Nichiren Ten World Gohonzon

Post by narhwal90 »

I could see it as a method of classification of gohonzons, compositions vary as do sizes- so perhaps useful in that way.
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