Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

bcol01
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Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by bcol01 »

I'm still trying to understand this. Would love your insights on the subject. I want to understand better. :namaste:
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by narhwal90 »

Its an interesting proposition. The way the dimensions are compounded fundamentally relates all experience from hell to buddhahood, there is no condition of life which does not incorporate the others, and no being is separate from any of them. Volition (among others) is likewise omnipresent in all the conditions, suggesting an element of individual agency. The other factors in the calculation can be likewise explored.

Being of an engineering mindset the principle appeals to me.
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by bcol01 »

It appeals to me too, minus the engineering mindset. Unless of course that would entail wanting to understand how something works.
narhwal90 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:18 pm Its an interesting proposition. The way the dimensions are compounded fundamentally relates all experience from hell to buddhahood, there is no condition of life which does not incorporate the others, and no being is separate from any of them. Volition (among others) is likewise omnipresent in all the conditions, suggesting an element of individual agency. The other factors in the calculation can be likewise explored.

Being of an engineering mindset the principle appeals to me.
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
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Aemilius
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Aemilius »

I think it means that one thing depends on a limitless number of other things. One thought does not exist by itself in isolation of other thoughts. Its meaning derives from other thoughts and from other concepts. All the other thoughts and concepts are implied by and included in one thought. Like the thought of "a house" depends on a person who wants to live there, otherwise it would not be a house. It depends on the concepts of land, of architects, builders, banks, loans, salary, workplace, plumbers, electricity, bills, windows, garden, neighbors, and so on...
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
bcol01
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by bcol01 »

All thoughts are subject to the law of cause and effect and dependent origination?
Aemilius wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:45 am I think it means that one thing depends on a limitless number of other things. One thought does not exist by itself in isolation of other thoughts. Its meaning derives from other thoughts and from other concepts. All the other thoughts and concepts are implied by and included in one thought. Like the thought of "a house" depends on a person who wants to live there, otherwise it would not be a house. It depends on the concepts of land, of architects, builders, banks, loans, salary, workplace, plumbers, electricity, bills, windows, garden, neighbors, and so on...
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
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Minobu
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Minobu »

I don't think 3000 THOUGHTS is an appropriate translation of Ichinen sanzen...

as seen by this resulting concept and confusion..

not that the post is without merit...it is a fine analogy of human thought...but is not actually based on the theory of ichinen sanzen...
Aemilius wrote: Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:45 am I think it means that one thing depends on a limitless number of other things. One thought does not exist by itself in isolation of other thoughts. Its meaning derives from other thoughts and from other concepts. All the other thoughts and concepts are implied by and included in one thought. Like the thought of "a house" depends on a person who wants to live there, otherwise it would not be a house. It depends on the concepts of land, of architects, builders, banks, loans, salary, workplace, plumbers, electricity, bills, windows, garden, neighbors, and so on...
it's 3000 realms in a moment ...

the realms play on one another to produce a moment in a sentient's life stream ...

Buddha nature is present in all of the realms...

for me that means the compassion and wisdom contained in Buddhahood is part and parcel to all sentient beings ...It's part of what we are due to the Buddha planting It's seed inside all of Samsaric beings...

if one meditates on and generates the qualities of Buddhahood through ODaimoku and with the aid of Gohonzon, in what ever present life condition one is experiencing...It becomes a spring board towards your own liberation and freedom...working through the lower realms as a means towards liberation through Zhiyi and Nichiren Shonin's Dharma...


Nichiren made TenDai practical and easy to understand and made use thereof as a development tool towards the eventual attainment of full blown Buddhahood...

By understanding the basic concept one uses this concept as a way of understanding the human condition and it's make up including the most important ingredient...Buddha Nature...
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Queequeg
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

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Ichinen sanzen is the concept that summarizes the view Zhiyi taught in Mohezhikuan/Makashikan/Great Samatha and Vipasyana. Guanding, one of his main disciples, summarized it as follows (Swanson's translation):
The perfect-and-sudden [method of practicing cessation-and-contemplation] involves taking the true aspects [of reality] as the object from the very beginning. Whatever is made to be the object [of contemplation], it is the Middle; there is nothing that is not truly real. [When one attains the state of contemplation wherein] reality itself (dharmadhatu) is fixed as the object [of contemplation], and thoughts are integrated with reality itself,
[then one realizes that] there is not a single color or scent that is not the Middle Way. It is the same for the realm of the individual, the realm of Buddhas, and the world at large. All [phenomena experienced through] the aggregates (skandha) and senses („yatana) are thusness; therefore there is no [substantial] suffering that needs to be removed. Since ignorance (avidya) and the exhausting dust [of passionate afflictions (kleša)] are indivisible with bodhi-wisdom, there is no origin [of suffering; i.e., craving] to be severed. Since the extreme [dualities] and false [views] are [indivisible with] the Middle and what is right, there is no path to be cultivated. Since [this cyclic world of] samsara is [indivisible with] nirvana, there is no extinguishing [of craving] to be realized. Since suffering and its causes do not exist [substantially], there is no mundane world [to be transcended]; since the path and the extinction [of craving] do not exist [substantially], there is no transcendent world [to be gained]. There is purely the single true aspect [of reality-as-it-is]; there are no separate things outside this true aspect. For things in themselves (dharmata) to be quiescent is called “cessation”; to be quiescent yet ever luminous is called “contemplation.” Though earlier and later [stages] are spoken of, they are neither two nor separate. This is called perfect-and-sudden cessation-and-contemplation.
The formula goes -
10 worlds mutually include 10 worlds, which express as 10 factors, in the three realms of the individual, their society, and the environment, are all one moment of thought (ksana).

Its often translated as saying one thought contains everything, but I think that characterizes it wrong. That makes it a vertical relationship where the mind is somehow more basic, or fundamental. One moment of mind is the three thousand. If you can grok how dharmas are said to arise as a confluence of factors, including at the most basic level, the observer and the observed, then I think that frames the relationship properly. I often heard the world described as a mirror of oneself, but I don't think that captures the radical assertion Zhiyi made. Its not merely that we project our inner world onto an inert backdrop, the world is coextensive with our mind itself. The world IS our mind, and our mind IS the world. And this description itself needs to be tempered by the denial that the mind and the world are in a horizontal relationship, but more radically, they are the same thing.

Not understanding that the world is our self, thinking the self ends at our skin, or our thoughts, causes us suffering. To be alienated from what we perceive as other is the basis of our suffering. By understanding that the world is our mind, we enter the Sudden and Perfect path.

Nichiren claimed that single minded devotion to the Lotus Sutra as NMRK is this sudden and perfect practice. Obviously, this exclusive belief is not shared by everyone.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:35 pm By understanding that the world is our mind, we enter the Sudden and Perfect path.
How is this different than the yogacāra assertion?
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:32 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:35 pm By understanding that the world is our mind, we enter the Sudden and Perfect path.
How is this different than the yogacāra assertion?
That's a good question. In general, I don't think it is, except that Zhiyi argued that the mind only position is incomplete. So, for instance, Yogacarin would say the cup is the mind. Zhiyi argued that it could also be said that the mind is the cup. Yogacarins erred in identifying the mind as the reference point, where as Zhiyi argued that any dharma could be the reference point against which everything else is said to arise.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:32 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:35 pm By understanding that the world is our mind, we enter the Sudden and Perfect path.
How is this different than the yogacāra assertion?
That's a good question. In general, I don't think it is, except that Zhiyi argued that the mind only position is incomplete. So, for instance, Yogacarin would say the cup is the mind. Zhiyi argued that it could also be said that the mind is the cup. Yogacarins erred in identifying the mind as the reference point, where as Zhiyi argued that any dharma could be the reference point against which everything else is said to arise.
We've had this conversation before. How is this more profound than the karana-hetu of the Sarvastivadins, that is, the principle that all phenomena are the causes of all other phenomena other than themselves?
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:17 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:14 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:32 pm

How is this different than the yogacāra assertion?
That's a good question. In general, I don't think it is, except that Zhiyi argued that the mind only position is incomplete. So, for instance, Yogacarin would say the cup is the mind. Zhiyi argued that it could also be said that the mind is the cup. Yogacarins erred in identifying the mind as the reference point, where as Zhiyi argued that any dharma could be the reference point against which everything else is said to arise.
We've had this conversation before. How is this more profound than the karana-hetu of the Sarvastivadins, that is, the principle that all phenomena are the causes of all other phenomena other than themselves?
Well, I don't think Zhiyi would say phenomena are causes of all other phenomena. That would imply what he calls a vertical relationship, which he says is not correct. I think the key here would be the ichinen - one thought-moment, ie. ksana. He's not talking about successive moments that would suggest linear cause and effect. That's the "sudden" part of the "Perfect and Sudden". Or "beyond time".

edit - I see that I wrote "arise" in my previous post. That was error. I guess it would be better to say, any dharma can be a reference point for any other dharma, including our mind. So, mind is nothing but cup. Cup in contact with the being gives rise to the consciousness of the cup. In a sense, the being doesn't arise except in contact with that cup. So the mind is the sense organ that in contact with cup gives rise to consciousness of the cup, the defining characteristic of that incident. I think its more or less a play on the dynamic we find in the 18 dhatus.
Last edited by Queequeg on Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Queequeg »

Maybe relevant.

There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:58 pm
Well, I don't think Zhiyi would say phenomena are causes of all other phenomena. That would imply what he calls a vertical relationship, which he says is not correct. I think the key here would be the ichinen - one thought-moment, ie. ksana. He's not talking about successive moments that would suggest linear cause and effect. That's the "sudden" part of the "Perfect and Sudden". Or "beyond time".
Buddhist causality, even in śrāvakayāna, is sequential, momentary, and simultaneous. This is why we have serial dependent origination, momentary dependent origination, and simultaneous dependent origination (where all 12 limbs function simultaneously).
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:12 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:58 pm
Well, I don't think Zhiyi would say phenomena are causes of all other phenomena. That would imply what he calls a vertical relationship, which he says is not correct. I think the key here would be the ichinen - one thought-moment, ie. ksana. He's not talking about successive moments that would suggest linear cause and effect. That's the "sudden" part of the "Perfect and Sudden". Or "beyond time".
Buddhist causality, even in śrāvakayāna, is sequential, momentary, and simultaneous. This is why we have serial dependent origination, momentary dependent origination, and simultaneous dependent origination (where all 12 limbs function simultaneously).
Yeah, all I can say is I don't think Zhiyi devolved to the sarvastivadin position as you describe it. And I can't say much more than the above. Back to the Yogacarins, as I said, it wasn't that he said the Yogacarins were wrong, he said they were incomplete in arguing mind-only. His critique is that mind-only sets up a one way dynamic, and he was arguing that it could equally be said that the object gives rise to the mind, rhetorically.

As far as I understand, in terms of the way the 18 dhatus work, each triad arises together - eye in contact with form is eye consciousness. We can say form and eye consciousness are functions of the eye, or, form and eye are functions of eye consciousness, or eye and eye consciousness are functions of form. By going through those three tentative possibilities, we can temper attachment and preference to any one of those formulations. It also casts each dharma in a slightly different light bringing a little more insight.

I don't think it goes much deeper than that.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:33 pm

Yeah, all I can say is I don't think Zhiyi devolved to the sarvastivadin position as you describe it.
Well, the three dependent originations pretty much coved every possible causal relationship. I would not call it a devolution.
And I can't say much more than the above. Back to the Yogacarins, as I said, it wasn't that he said the Yogacarins were wrong, he said they were incomplete in arguing mind-only. His critique is that mind-only sets up a one way dynamic, and he was arguing that it could equally be said that the object gives rise to the mind, rhetorically.
That's not a rhetorical position—its the position of most Mādhyamakas, other than the few who opt for a mind-only presentation of relative truth, when deconstructing perception through ultimate analysis.
As far as I understand, in terms of the way the 18 dhatus work, each triad arises together - eye in contact with form is eye consciousness. We can say form and eye consciousness are functions of the eye, or, form and eye are functions of eye consciousness, or eye and eye consciousness are functions of form. By going through those three tentative possibilities, we can temper attachment and preference to any one of those formulations. It also casts each dharma in a slightly different light bringing a little more insight.
This still does not go beyond the śrāvaka formulation. Which is ok, because that is the base line for understanding how things like perception work.
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

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Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:02 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:33 pm

Yeah, all I can say is I don't think Zhiyi devolved to the sarvastivadin position as you describe it.
Well, the three dependent originations pretty much coved every possible causal relationship. I would not call it a devolution.
I'm not sure cause and effect as you have in mind applies to the view explained through ichinen sanzen. "Since suffering and its causes do not exist..." I don't think its any sort of conventional view. As I understand, its the view taught in, for instance, the Heart Sutra:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.

Not saying views on causation are rejected.

I don't think what I'm describing is a particularly novel view.

Anyway, I answered your initial question as best as I could.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:26 pm

I'm not sure cause and effect as you have in mind applies to the view explained through ichinen sanzen. "Since suffering and its causes do not exist..." I don't think its any sort of conventional view. As I understand, its the view taught in, for instance, the Heart Sutra:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.

Not saying views on causation are rejected.

I don't think what I'm describing is a particularly novel view.
where is the compassion in a statement , or more precisely a view of what is written , in this...
"Since suffering and its causes do not exist..
do you see how heatless this is towards reality...the realms we dwell in...

you take a nihilistic approach to suffering and any compassion goes out the window.

hard nosed ..there is no suffering...

the view in my opinion is an absurd notion brought about by not seeing the edict my rinpoche instilled in me..

that being...

seeing sunyata mixed with compassion is enlightenment...

there is no compassion in the discussion above between Malcolm and you....


Nichiren was able to bring compassion and a means for sentients to blow out their karma and suffering via the attainment of Buddhahood...

attaining Buddhahood leaves behind those who are still locked in the 3000 realms of the samsaric cycle...

and yet Buddha's appear and seem to suffer along with us in samsara...

I find zero compassion in Malcolm's views on what Buddhism is supposed to mean...

chasing after some meditative experience that is supposed to lead to buddhahood without any compassion mixed into the practice....

just waiting for a deathbed awakening, as promised by some arcane translation and view from sutras that apparently Nichiren was really good at denying....


maybe malcolm is what they mean the way of the praketabuddha thing...dunno...but all this talk of perception and Sunyata taken to nihilisim that suffering does not exist....

We are not focused on any of that through the teachings of Nichiren....why ?

really ...WHY ?

is the "Oh nichiren teachings are not deep enough for me...i need something more intellectual....who said that to me?



even though he was probably best in his class when it came to accomplishing Tendai what ever....

He left the most compassionate of teachings and dharma practice in Mappo...

without compassion as a base there is no actual buddhism...just talk...
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:26 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:02 pm
Queequeg wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:33 pm

Yeah, all I can say is I don't think Zhiyi devolved to the sarvastivadin position as you describe it.
Well, the three dependent originations pretty much coved every possible causal relationship. I would not call it a devolution.
I'm not sure cause and effect as you have in mind applies to the view explained through ichinen sanzen. "Since suffering and its causes do not exist..." I don't think its any sort of conventional view. As I understand, its the view taught in, for instance, the Heart Sutra:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
Which actually means:

There is suffering, a cause of suffering,
an end to suffering, a path to follow.

Why? "Matter is empty, emptiness is matter; apart from matter there is no emptiness; apart from emptiness there is no matter, the same for sensation. perception, formation, and consciousness."

The Heart Sūtra is merely saying there is no inherent suffering, cause, end, or path, and that the two truths, samsara and nirvana, etc., are inseparable.
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Minobu
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Minobu »

I'm so glad and more, that you posted this:
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:34 pm
Queequeg wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:26 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:02 pm

Well, the three dependent originations pretty much coved every possible causal relationship. I would not call it a devolution.
I'm not sure cause and effect as you have in mind applies to the view explained through ichinen sanzen. "Since suffering and its causes do not exist..." I don't think its any sort of conventional view. As I understand, its the view taught in, for instance, the Heart Sutra:
There is no suffering, no cause of suffering,
no end to suffering, no path to follow.
Which actually means:

There is suffering, a cause of suffering,
an end to suffering, a path to follow.

Why? "Matter is empty, emptiness is matter; apart from matter there is no emptiness; apart from emptiness there is no matter, the same for sensation. perception, formation, and consciousness."

The Heart Sūtra is merely saying there is no inherent suffering, cause, end, or path, and that the two truths, samsara and nirvana, etc., are inseparable.
:good:


ya came through...
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Minobu
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Re: Three thousand thoughts in a single life moment..

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:34 pm
Why? "Matter is empty, emptiness is matter; apart from matter there is no emptiness; apart from emptiness there is no matter, the same for sensation. perception, formation, and consciousness."
the emptiness in sunyata is the fact that nothing is inherent...why?

because so many factors goes into a conventional anything appear in this reality.

Also if it was inherent there could be no change...and all is change....

so



i get that matter is empty of inherent existence...

how does emptiness become matter....did you misspoke.

Does that mean that anything that is not inherent is matter ?

your use of the word emptiness is off...it seems to me anyway...

i was happy to see you admitting that there is suffering...

it might not be inherent but it does exist...
Last edited by Minobu on Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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