Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

bcol01
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Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by bcol01 »

I've found that over the years, my faith in the Lotus Sutra has come and gone, but I always return to Odaimoku. It's not so much what Nichiren Buddhism teaches as it is the experience of it that keeps me returning to it. I've studied so many different types of religions over the years and honestly I've gotten a lot out of each one. But the practice is why I keep returning. I feel it on an experiential level within my being. I feel more me, happier, grounded, healthier, etc and life just seems to go much smoother with it than without it. Much like other Nichiren Buddhists who have shared the same experience, I tested this practice and what it teaches. I compared chanting consistently and devoting a reasonable amount of time to it each day, each week and so on, to not practicing at all and completely turning from Buddhism to some other distraction or hopeful quick-fix, just to be shown the door back to this practice. It works, even if it's not easy. Though, staying consistent again is key.

Distractions, karma, inner garbage etc would pop up (and luckily I see it for what it is now and can deal with it) like:

I use to feel silly being a Buddhist and being white, I wasn't sure if I wanted to "identify" as a Buddhist. I felt out of place kinda, growing up in middle America as a white Christian. So, that thought of not knowing if I could "see myself being a Buddhist" was in a way silly to me but also, it hindered me (hindrance?) and I let it sway me off course. What does it matter? <<This kind of thinking.

And another distraction:

Some religions just looked "cool" and I wondered if I'd feel "at home" sticking with whatever it was I was. But I'd soon feel inauthentic.

I'd return to Buddhism and to our practice. Has anyone else experienced any of this in the beginning of practice or at all? I'm sure people have, just would love to hear some of your thoughts and experiences. Hope you are all doing well. With Gassho
In his writing, Hokkemongu (Words and Phrases of the Lotus Sutra), The Great Master Nichiren said, “If the practitioners of the Lotus Sutra wholeheartedly devote their life to the Lotus Sutra and practice according to its golden words, it is certainly needless to say that not only in the next life, but also in this lifetime they will overcome severe difficulty, prolong their life, receive the great, good fortune of unsurpassed enlightenment, and accomplish the great vow of the widespread, propagation of True Buddhism.”
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Lotomístico
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by Lotomístico »

Well, a response based on my personal experience (and not any authoritative sources) is that faith gets stronger sometimes, we waver at other times, probably due to different circumstances, situations etc. Perhaps we just get bored or become discouraged. I think exploring other traditions and faith can also be healthy (though some more dogmátic folks might disagree), for me it helps to reassure me that I'm on the right path. Just my 2 pesos.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

1. The mind is constantly moving and responding to conditions. Who wants to sit in a room meditating on a sunny day when it would be more fun to go out and play?

I asked a very similar question to a Korean zen master once. She told me, one’s Dharma practice is like water that’s boiling in a pot. When water boils, you have two things: water, and the bubbles in the water. Where the bubbles are, that’s a gap. Where there are bubbles, there is no water. But all of it, together, it’s all still boiling.
In other words, even when you don’t feel like meditating or focusing on Buddhist practice, even when there are gaps, or even if you are exploring other paths, that’s still practice. You are still working at it.


2. It’s funny that you mention “being” a Buddhist. It’s funny because that’s always a kind of contradiction, isn’t it? You can’t stop clinging to the “self” and still cling to an identity at the same time. That’s the universal dilemma. But there is an easy solution to that. Instead of thinking “I am a Buddhist” instead, do Buddhism”.
You can practice compassion without labeling yourself “The Compassionator”.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
muni
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by muni »

Alas faith is not a product we can buy, it is revealing by putting the teachings into practice. The more we cling to self the more faith isn't. I mean faith in true nature.
It’s funny that you mention “being” a Buddhist. It’s funny because that’s always a kind of contradiction, isn’t it? You can’t stop clinging to the “self” and still cling to an identity at the same time. That’s the universal dilemma. But there is an easy solution to that. Instead of thinking “I am a Buddhist” instead, do Buddhism”.
Dependent-emptiness, is not "a this" and by this "not a that".
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Lotomístico
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by Lotomístico »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:42 am 1. The mind is constantly moving and responding to conditions. Who wants to sit in a room meditating on a sunny day when it would be more fun to go out and play?

I asked a very similar question to a Korean zen master once. She told me, one’s Dharma practice is like water that’s boiling in a pot. When water boils, you have two things: water, and the bubbles in the water. Where the bubbles are, that’s a gap. Where there are bubbles, there is no water. But all of it, together, it’s all still boiling.
In other words, even when you don’t feel like meditating or focusing on Buddhist practice, even when there are gaps, or even if you are exploring other paths, that’s still practice. You are still working at it.


2. It’s funny that you mention “being” a Buddhist. It’s funny because that’s always a kind of contradiction, isn’t it? You can’t stop clinging to the “self” and still cling to an identity at the same time. That’s the universal dilemma. But there is an easy solution to that. Instead of thinking “I am a Buddhist” instead, do Buddhism”.
You can practice compassion without labeling yourself “The Compassionator”.
Who meditates? And who acts compassionately?
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Lotomístico
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by Lotomístico »

muni wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:00 am Alas faith is not a product we can buy, it is growing inside by practising. For me the more we cling to self the more faith loses. I mean faith in our true nature.
It’s funny that you mention “being” a Buddhist. It’s funny because that’s always a kind of contradiction, isn’t it? You can’t stop clinging to the “self” and still cling to an identity at the same time. That’s the universal dilemma. But there is an easy solution to that. Instead of thinking “I am a Buddhist” instead, do Buddhism”.
You can practice compassion without labeling yourself “The Compassionator”
Dependent-emptiness, is not "a this" and by this "not a that".
And who clings to self? Seriously (not) though folks...

Something I wonder about, in Buddhism, is the distinction between a false self and a true self, can such a distinction be made? Do any sutras suggest such a possibility?

Then again, if this isn't that and that isn't this, maybe that's not it after all... possibly no distinction? And who or what makes the distinction between this, that and the other?
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by Queequeg »

bcol01 wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:41 pm I've found that over the years, my faith in the Lotus Sutra has come and gone, but I always return to Odaimoku. It's not so much what Nichiren Buddhism teaches as it is the experience of it that keeps me returning to it. I've studied so many different types of religions over the years and honestly I've gotten a lot out of each one. But the practice is why I keep returning. I feel it on an experiential level within my being. I feel more me, happier, grounded, healthier, etc and life just seems to go much smoother with it than without it. Much like other Nichiren Buddhists who have shared the same experience, I tested this practice and what it teaches. I compared chanting consistently and devoting a reasonable amount of time to it each day, each week and so on, to not practicing at all and completely turning from Buddhism to some other distraction or hopeful quick-fix, just to be shown the door back to this practice. It works, even if it's not easy. Though, staying consistent again is key.

Distractions, karma, inner garbage etc would pop up (and luckily I see it for what it is now and can deal with it) like:

I use to feel silly being a Buddhist and being white, I wasn't sure if I wanted to "identify" as a Buddhist. I felt out of place kinda, growing up in middle America as a white Christian. So, that thought of not knowing if I could "see myself being a Buddhist" was in a way silly to me but also, it hindered me (hindrance?) and I let it sway me off course. What does it matter? <<This kind of thinking.

And another distraction:

Some religions just looked "cool" and I wondered if I'd feel "at home" sticking with whatever it was I was. But I'd soon feel inauthentic.

I'd return to Buddhism and to our practice. Has anyone else experienced any of this in the beginning of practice or at all? I'm sure people have, just would love to hear some of your thoughts and experiences. Hope you are all doing well. With Gassho
For sure. Though my practice has evolved beyond Nichiren, I can relate to faith and motivation vacillating over time, from a robust, energetic practice, to questioning what I was doing. In the end, though, the experience of practice is real. I may not understand it, but the experience of practicing is not deniable.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:03 am Who meditates? And who acts compassionately
Whoever you want it to be,
Whoever you imagine it to be.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:12 amSomething I wonder about, in Buddhism, is the distinction between a false self and a true self, can such a distinction be made? Do any sutras suggest such a possibility?
I don’t think any sutras suggest that there is a true “self” that can be found anywhere when looked for.
By “true” is meant independently-arising, not the result of any other events or conditions.

What is often talked about is the true nature of mind, which is unborn, not arising as a by-product of other events or conditions. But that’s a description. It’s like saying the true nature of the sky is vast and open. It’s not identifying the sky as some sort of giant blue roof.

The difference between the two, an independently arising “self” (which Buddhism rejects) and an original “mind” (and this is really a clumsy term) is that original mind has no specific identity. All notions of “self” occur as dualistic experiences of subject/object, and arise subsequently, due to events and conditions. Mind has qualities such as luminosity (awareness of stuff) and limitless-ness, just as space is limitless. But it’s not a “self”.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
muni
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by muni »

Then again, if this isn't that and that isn't this, maybe that's not it after all... possibly no distinction? And who or what makes the distinction between this, that and the other?
Distinction is made by experience of self, and so not being other self.
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by illarraza »

bcol01 wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:41 pm I've found that over the years, my faith in the Lotus Sutra has come and gone, but I always return to Odaimoku. It's not so much what Nichiren Buddhism teaches as it is the experience of it that keeps me returning to it. I've studied so many different types of religions over the years and honestly I've gotten a lot out of each one. But the practice is why I keep returning. I feel it on an experiential level within my being. I feel more me, happier, grounded, healthier, etc and life just seems to go much smoother with it than without it. Much like other Nichiren Buddhists who have shared the same experience, I tested this practice and what it teaches. I compared chanting consistently and devoting a reasonable amount of time to it each day, each week and so on, to not practicing at all and completely turning from Buddhism to some other distraction or hopeful quick-fix, just to be shown the door back to this practice. It works, even if it's not easy. Though, staying consistent again is key.

Distractions, karma, inner garbage etc would pop up (and luckily I see it for what it is now and can deal with it) like:

I use to feel silly being a Buddhist and being white, I wasn't sure if I wanted to "identify" as a Buddhist. I felt out of place kinda, growing up in middle America as a white Christian. So, that thought of not knowing if I could "see myself being a Buddhist" was in a way silly to me but also, it hindered me (hindrance?) and I let it sway me off course. What does it matter? <<This kind of thinking.

And another distraction:

Some religions just looked "cool" and I wondered if I'd feel "at home" sticking with whatever it was I was. But I'd soon feel inauthentic.

I'd return to Buddhism and to our practice. Has anyone else experienced any of this in the beginning of practice or at all? I'm sure people have, just would love to hear some of your thoughts and experiences. Hope you are all doing well. With Gassho
It is a constant battle to keep, recollect, and muster faith. The travails and vicissitudes of life are not few but the rewards of continuing faith are immense. A fine testimonial. Thanks for sharing.

M
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Lotomístico
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by Lotomístico »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:43 pm
Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:03 am Who meditates? And who acts compassionately
Whoever you want it to be,
Whoever you imagine it to be.
Whoever who imagines It to be? Who imagines?
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by Lotomístico »

illarraza wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:38 pm
bcol01 wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 10:41 pm I've found that over the years, my faith in the Lotus Sutra has come and gone, but I always return to Odaimoku. It's not so much what Nichiren Buddhism teaches as it is the experience of it that keeps me returning to it. I've studied so many different types of religions over the years and honestly I've gotten a lot out of each one. But the practice is why I keep returning. I feel it on an experiential level within my being. I feel more me, happier, grounded, healthier, etc and life just seems to go much smoother with it than without it. Much like other Nichiren Buddhists who have shared the same experience, I tested this practice and what it teaches. I compared chanting consistently and devoting a reasonable amount of time to it each day, each week and so on, to not practicing at all and completely turning from Buddhism to some other distraction or hopeful quick-fix, just to be shown the door back to this practice. It works, even if it's not easy. Though, staying consistent again is key.

Distractions, karma, inner garbage etc would pop up (and luckily I see it for what it is now and can deal with it) like:

I use to feel silly being a Buddhist and being white, I wasn't sure if I wanted to "identify" as a Buddhist. I felt out of place kinda, growing up in middle America as a white Christian. So, that thought of not knowing if I could "see myself being a Buddhist" was in a way silly to me but also, it hindered me (hindrance?) and I let it sway me off course. What does it matter? <<This kind of thinking.

And another distraction:

Some religions just looked "cool" and I wondered if I'd feel "at home" sticking with whatever it was I was. But I'd soon feel inauthentic.

I'd return to Buddhism and to our practice. Has anyone else experienced any of this in the beginning of practice or at all? I'm sure people have, just would love to hear some of your thoughts and experiences. Hope you are all doing well. With Gassho
It is a constant battle to keep, recollect, and muster faith. The travails and vicissitudes of life are not few but the rewards of continuing faith are immense. A fine testimonial. Thanks for sharing.

M
Wow, práctical advice!
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Lotomístico
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by Lotomístico »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:56 pm
Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:12 amSomething I wonder about, in Buddhism, is the distinction between a false self and a true self, can such a distinction be made? Do any sutras suggest such a possibility?
I don’t think any sutras suggest that there is a true “self” that can be found anywhere when looked for.
By “true” is meant independently-arising, not the result of any other events or conditions.

What is often talked about is the true nature of mind, which is unborn, not arising as a by-product of other events or conditions. But that’s a description. It’s like saying the true nature of the sky is vast and open. It’s not identifying the sky as some sort of giant blue roof.

The difference between the two, an independently arising “self” (which Buddhism rejects) and an original “mind” (and this is really a clumsy term) is that original mind has no specific identity. All notions of “self” occur as dualistic experiences of subject/object, and arise subsequently, due to events and conditions. Mind has qualities such as luminosity (awareness of stuff) and limitless-ness, just as space is limitless. But it’s not a “self”.
What about the various Tathāgatagarbha sutras? Awakening of Faith in the Mahayana? Could Tathāgatagarbha or Buddha nature be seen as a true "self", or nature if you will, as opposed to false ego? Could we see the concept of no self as perhaps an expedient to overcome ego?
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by Lotomístico »

muni wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:01 pm
Then again, if this isn't that and that isn't this, maybe that's not it after all... possibly no distinction? And who or what makes the distinction between this, that and the other?
Distinction is made by experience of self, and so not being other self.
Can Tathāgatagarbha or Buddha nature be considered a 'self'?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:46 pm Can Tathāgatagarbha or Buddha nature be considered a 'self'?
No, because it is the opposite of a self.
That’s like asking if a brightly lit room can just be regarded as a different type of shadow, because notion of “self” is a type of obstruction in that it can only occur as something clung to or grasped. Tathagatagharba is originally free of all grasping.
EMPTIFUL.
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Lotomístico
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by Lotomístico »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:07 pm
Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:46 pm Can Tathāgatagarbha or Buddha nature be considered a 'self'?
No, because it is the opposite of a self.
That’s like asking if a brightly lit room can just be regarded as a different type of shadow, because notion of “self” is a type of obstruction in that it can only occur as something clung to or grasped. Tathagatagharba is originally free of all grasping.
Could Buddha nature be considered a "self" in any Mahayana tradition, or Is this unheard of?
Can there be more than one definition of self? Ego as opposed to Buddha nature? Something possibly along those lines.
Could someone possibly get that from say, the Mahaparanirvana Sutra, or absolutely not? Or references in the Lotus Sutra to monks (Arahants) who believed they were not self and passing into extinction, and Shakyamuni says this isn't the case (ch.3), can "not self" possibly be seen as an expedient/skillful means or provisional teaching, or probably not?
Last edited by Lotomístico on Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by muni »

Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:46 pm
muni wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:01 pm
Then again, if this isn't that and that isn't this, maybe that's not it after all... possibly no distinction? And who or what makes the distinction between this, that and the other?
Distinction is made by experience of self, and so not being other self.
Can Tathāgatagarbha or Buddha nature be considered a 'self'?
Like said by Padma.
Buddha is Primordial Goodness-Wisdom, which is always there but not always easy to recognize for us. A way to reveal our Buddha nature cannot by the idea of a self. However sometimes in a Buddhist text there is written our true nature or even our true self, but that is not a self. Because the nature of all of us is Buddha.

We identify mistakenly with an entity alone, that brings weakness, suffering, fear, hope, illusions, anger. We could as well be aware of our consciousness, in which all thoughts, feelings, experiences appear. See meditation.

By meditation all embracing awareness could be revealed, this is excluding none, nothing.

Or like the sky is pregnant from all what appears or flows.( thunder, birds, clouds...flow-pass like the blossoms in springtime) But sky just is, like Buddha nature, rejecting or accepting nothing, no any intention is there.

Buddha Nature is not a separation, no Buddha Nature is standing alone. Therefore many Awaken Masters say all are brothers and sisters in a way of no separate nature.
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by muni »

I had to look on google to find Nichiren example of no self/ separation. However Nichiren practitioners can better help.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40

I think opening our very heart could support faith, our very heart which is not a fleshi location. :namaste:
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Re: Is it normal for ones' faith to wax and wane over time?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Lotomístico wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:26 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:07 pm
Lotomístico wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:46 pm Can Tathāgatagarbha or Buddha nature be considered a 'self'?
No, because it is the opposite of a self.
That’s like asking if a brightly lit room can just be regarded as a different type of shadow, because notion of “self” is a type of obstruction in that it can only occur as something clung to or grasped. Tathagatagharba is originally free of all grasping.
Could Buddha nature be considered a "self" in any Mahayana tradition, or Is this unheard of?
Can there be more than one definition of self? Ego as opposed to Buddha nature? Something possibly along those lines.
Could someone possibly get that from say, the Mahaparanirvana Sutra, or absolutely not? Or references in the Lotus Sutra to monks (Arahants) who believed they were not self and passing into extinction, and Shakyamuni says this isn't the case (ch.3), can "not self" possibly be seen as an expedient/skillful means or provisional teaching, or probably not?
I think this can be answered better if you define very clearly what you mean by “self”.
If it helps to conceive of tathagatagharba as some kind of self, you can certainly do that, but in terms of Buddhist reckoning, it’s not a self.

The notion of ‘self’, by definition, demands attachment. You can’t say, “this is myself but I’m not clinging to it” because the whole point of a “self” is the identity of “me” and “my”.

The experience of ‘self’ is an expression of attachment,
And the experience of Buddha-nature is an expression of non-attachment.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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