Buddhism's causes of illness

[tkp67]

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... a_symptoms

https://www.healthline.com/health/catat ... izophrenia

"Although schizophrenia may be a lifelong condition in some cases, catatonic episodes associated with the condition can be effectively treated by an experienced psychiatric team."

Mark

Ok Mark. That doesn't mean someone is capable of chanting with faith. Entering the practice without regression requires more than a mantra. Nichiren taught as much as did Shakyamuni. There are far greater considerations and implications. Doing less than clinical due diligence could easily be seen as malfeasance against the mentally ill.

Peaceful practices from the lotus sutra comes to mind. Forcing the mentally ill to look into a mirror they may not be prepared to see is not Nichiren buddhism as I understand it. It is not any buddhism as I understand it.

Being a votary of the lotus sutra is voluntary and thus requires volition drive faith. Some of those illness you described do not leave the person suffering them with the capacity to voluntary practice the LS. This does not leave them bereft liberation or even LS practices but it does not mean their mind is manifesting the realms by choice or means of karma.

All that is required to attain Buddhahood now or in the future, is one moment of joy in the Lifespan of the Tathagata (another explanation of the Law of Namu myoho renge kyo). If, as Nagarjuna and Nichiren taught, even a dung beetle exposed to the Lotus Sutra can attain the way, then of course, a human being even having catatonic schizophrenia:

"The scripture known as the Nirvana Sutra lists the beings that have been able to attain the way through the Lotus Sutra, and the list includes such filthy creatures as dung beetles, vipers, and scorpions. To express the wonderful power of the Lotus Sutra, Bodhisattva Nāgārjuna says that it enables even such creatures as dung beetles to attain Buddhahood*." -The writing, Great Bodhisattva Hachiman, is an authenticated (1280) writing of Nichiren with his stamp and signature written to Nichigenyo and her husband, Shijo Kingo.

*This statement is found in The Treatise on the Great Perfection of Wisdom.

Mark

Mark. Let me just get this clear because I am confused.

You are saying that you believe a catatonic schizophrenic is capable of both:

- Attaining buddhahood

- Better health care and material life conditions

By simply chanting (assuming faith lines up correctly). So outside the daimoku their desire to have better health care and life conditions is meaningless?

It seems like you are positioning the gosho submissions to suit a narrative that doesn't follow what Nichiren taught.

Do you think if someone with schizophrenia chants and doesn't get better health care or life conditions as you stated that this is ok? Do you put ownership on them? Medicine didn't work must be the patient?

[PeterC]

[Aemilius]

An example of a physical illness with a karmic cause is a thalidomide child with withered limbs.

The limbs of a child born of a mother who took thalidomide during pregnancy were malformed. They did not "wither", i.e., shrivel or shrink.

If anyone had "karma" in this example, it was probably the mom.

How about those who manufactured and sold that medicine? They created for themselves the karma of not-caring and ignorance of the effects of thalidomide. (Although Distillers Biochemicals paid out approximately £28m in compensation following a legal battle, in Britain alone.)

[Minobu]

all [Illnesses] have their origins in Karmic cause and effect.
........
I am not discussing treatments or ailments, the work of physicians.
.........
With merit one finds a good doctor.

So, if you have enough negative karma to make you sick, you’ll get sick, but if you have enough positive karma to get a good doctor, you’ll get a doctor who can help you fight the effects of your negative karma?

Am I understanding this correctly?

Let me put it this way. Malcolm reads a sutra and some advice on ailments is written. All good advice.

The thing is it wasn’t discussing karma. A whole other teaching. So Malcolm decides to teach not all illness is due to karma.

Did you read the gosho passage and can you see the implication

[Minobu]

Mark. Let me just get this clear because I am confused.

You are saying that you believe a catatonic schizophrenic is capable of both:

- Attaining buddhahood

- Better health care and material life conditions

By simply chanting (assuming faith lines up correctly). So outside the daimoku their desire to have better health care and life conditions is meaningless?

It seems like you are positioning the gosho submissions to suit a narrative that doesn't follow what Nichiren taught.

Do you think if someone with schizophrenia chants and doesn't get better health care or life conditions as you stated that this is ok? Do you put ownership on them? Medicine didn't work must be the patient?

TKP , it depends on what you wish to read into what Illarazza writes.

I think that if a catatonic schizophrenia is able to hear the words Nam MyoHo RenGe Kyo he is put on a path of recovery. It might take a few lifetimes to ripen but eventually this Karma will be expiated as he is guaranteed the chance of practice.. Even if only his subconscious hears the words.....
without this practice he could be in endless cycle of hell, for kalpas. Not written in stone , I'm just making a possibility.

also i think the mom and the child of thalidomide both have differing sufferings due to their Karma.

you know Karma is a layered thing...it's influences are in flux all the time due to all things are in a state of change.

diagnosing karma should be taken with a grain of salt . only a Buddha can see someone's full extent of their Karma.

but we do have teachings on the subject and one thing for sure...Our lives are entirely influenced by our Karma.

[tkp67]

Minobu. Agreeably I most certainty don't want to discourage people from having confidence in Myoho renge kyo as a seed.

However the devils and demons identified in Nichiren buddhism are not defined by specific mental illnesses.

Devil ［魔］ (, Pali māra;  ma): A personification of evil. The Sanskrit word māra also means killing, death, pestilence, or obstacle, and in China it was translated as “robber of life.” In Buddhist scriptures, Māra is the name of a devil king who rules over numerous devils who are his retinue. He is described as the great evil enemy of Shakyamuni Buddha and his teachings. When Shakyamuni entered into meditation under the bodhi tree, Māra attempted to prevent him from attaining enlightenment but failed. After Shakyamuni’s enlightenment, he also tried to induce the Buddha to abandon his intent to preach. Māra is identified with the devil king of the sixth heaven. The sixth heaven is the highest heaven in the world of desire, or the Heaven of Freely Enjoying Things Conjured by Others, and its ruler delights in manipulating others to submit to his will. In Buddhism, devils indicate those functions that block or hinder people’s effort to complete their Buddhist practice.

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/D/35

Demon ［悪鬼・鬼］ ( akki or ki): Also, evil demon, evil spirit, or simply spirit. Evil beings who torment people. Indian mythology and Buddhist scriptures mention various kinds of demons, such as rākshasa, yaksha, and kumbhānda. The “Encouraging Devotion” (thirteenth) chapter of the Lotus Sutra, for example, states: “In a muddied kalpa, in an evil age there will be many things to fear. Evil demons will take possession of others and through them curse, revile, and heap shame on us. But we, reverently trusting in the Buddha, will put on the armor of perseverance. In order to preach this sutra we will bear these difficult things.” Demon also means negative functions or influences that deprive people of happiness or vitality, and obstruct correct judgment. In contrast with the function of gods that protect people’s welfare, demons indicate forces in the environment that act to prevent or destroy human happiness. In Great Concentration and Insight, T’ien-t’ai (538–597) regarded attack by demons as one of the six causes of illness.

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/D/26

Karma is complex especially in the degenerate age. To state the cause of genetic disease that occurs in the human gene pool as a direct cause of one's own past actions is far too simplistic and becomes egocentric/deterministic/fatalistic in nature. It is also grossly unfair to put the weight of such things into the mind of someone who already has cognitive issues. Nichiren would have taught the care takers and families of the ill people buddhism to help the ill along way.

It is karma, therefore, that accounts for the circumstances of one’s birth, one’s individual nature, and in general the differences among all living beings and their environments. It was traditionally viewed as a natural process in which no god or deity could intervene. The Hindu gods, in fact, were subject to the same law of karma as people, having become gods supposedly through the creation of good karma. The idea of karma predates Buddhism and was already prevalent in Indian society well before the time of Shakyamuni. This pre-Buddhist view of karma, however, had an element of determinism, serving more to explain one’s lot in life and compel one to accept it than inspiring hope for change or transformation. The Brahmans, who were at the top of the Indian class structure by birth, may well have emphasized this view to secure their own role. The idea of karma was further developed, however, in the Buddhist teachings.

Shakyamuni maintained that what makes a person noble or humble is not birth but one’s actions. Therefore the Buddhist doctrine of karma is not fatalistic. Rather, karma is viewed not only as a means to explain the present, but also as the potential force through which to influence one’s future. Mahayana Buddhism holds that the sum of actions and experiences of the present and previous lifetimes are accumulated and stored as karma in the depths of life and will form the framework of individual existence in the next lifetime. Buddhism therefore encourages people to create the best possible karma in the present in order to ensure the best possible outcome in the future. In terms of time, some types of karma produce effects in the present lifetime, others in the next lifetime, and still others in subsequent lifetimes. This depends on the nature, intensity, and repetitiveness of the acts that caused them. Only those types of karma that are extremely good or bad will last into future existences. The other, more minor, types will produce results in this lifetime. Those that are neither good nor bad will bring about no results.

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/K/35

[Minobu]

TKP, all suffering and joy is due to Karma.
focusing on one illness and saying this or that is fine...it's not about psychiatry here it's about the effects of Karma, and the expiation of such and more importantly learning from the teachings from the Buddha about Karma.

Everyone eventually except a few burnt seeds will practice this Buddhism eventually.

Malcolm and Padmavonsambha will one day in the future finally be able to practice True Buddhism during Mappo,and get rid of their nihilistic views and their confusion over Karma.

i don't think anyone here at DW is a burnt seed.

there is this story children are told.

One day Buddha was visiting Lord Brahma , and He Saw Lord Brahma very disturbed.

He asked what was wrong and Lord Brahma said "I'm lord Brahma and as you know i hear everything sentients talk about . When they are ill they complain to me and ask why I did this to them, when they flourish they thank me for it. Please Buddha can you go and explain to them that their fortune and misfortune has nothing to do with Me."

With that Buddha taught everyone about cause and effect and Karma.

[narhwal90]

TKP67, please note the Nichiren forum policy specificy limits quotation as discussion- if quotations are used they should be paired with commentary

[_johnarundel_]

Regarding the causes of illness, Nichiren Daishonin quoted the Great Teacher Tiantai's Maka shikan:

To clarify the causes for illnesses, there are six categories. First are illnesses caused by an imbalance of the four elements. Second are illnesses caused by one’s inability to control one’s appetite. Third are illnesses caused by an imperfect practice of meditation. Fourth are illnesses caused by demons entering into one’s body. Fifth are illnesses caused by the work of devils. Sixth are illnesses caused by the manifestation of one’s karma.

(Gosho, p. 911)

Whether we are sick or healthy, we must never neglect our practices of chanting Daimoku to the Gohonzon and doing shakubuku. True joy and happiness are derived from practicing the Law.

[tkp67]

TKP, all suffering and joy is due to Karma.
focusing on one illness and saying this or that is fine...it's not about psychiatry here it's about the effects of Karma, and the expiation of such and more importantly learning from the teachings from the Buddha about Karma.

Everyone eventually except a few burnt seeds will practice this Buddhism eventually.

Malcolm and Padmavonsambha will one day in the future finally be able to practice True Buddhism during Mappo,and get rid of their nihilistic views and their confusion over Karma.

i don't think anyone here at DW is a burnt seed.

there is this story children are told.

One day Buddha was visiting Lord Brahma , and He Saw Lord Brahma very disturbed.

He asked what was wrong and Lord Brahma said "I'm lord Brahma and as you know i hear everything sentients talk about . When they are ill they complain to me and ask why I did this to them, when they flourish they thank me for it. Please Buddha can you go and explain to them that their fortune and misfortune has nothing to do with Me."

With that Buddha taught everyone about cause and effect and Karma.

My comments are very specific to these claims

(4) attack by demons (bacteria, virus, fungi); (5) the work of devils (depression, bipolar, schizophrenia)

This might satisfy as a tie in to the post Narhwal90 was kind enough to let stand even though it lacked contextual commentary.

These subtle over reaches when accepted as truth make the tradition look as reasonable as the Abrahamic religions look to an atheist.

[Minobu]

TKP, all suffering and joy is due to Karma.
focusing on one illness and saying this or that is fine...it's not about psychiatry here it's about the effects of Karma, and the expiation of such and more importantly learning from the teachings from the Buddha about Karma.

Everyone eventually except a few burnt seeds will practice this Buddhism eventually.

Malcolm and Padmavonsambha will one day in the future finally be able to practice True Buddhism during Mappo,and get rid of their nihilistic views and their confusion over Karma.

i don't think anyone here at DW is a burnt seed.

there is this story children are told.

One day Buddha was visiting Lord Brahma , and He Saw Lord Brahma very disturbed.

He asked what was wrong and Lord Brahma said "I'm lord Brahma and as you know i hear everything sentients talk about . When they are ill they complain to me and ask why I did this to them, when they flourish they thank me for it. Please Buddha can you go and explain to them that their fortune and misfortune has nothing to do with Me."

With that Buddha taught everyone about cause and effect and Karma.

My comments are very specific to these claims

(4) attack by demons (bacteria, virus, fungi); (5) the work of devils (depression, bipolar, schizophrenia)

This might satisfy as a tie in to the post Narhwal90 was kind enough to let stand even though it lacked contextual commentary.

These subtle over reaches when accepted as truth make the tradition look as reasonable as the Abrahamic religions look to an atheist.

So you people are saying suffering is not caused by karma..it just happens ?

[Minobu]

to everyone else:


it is very hard to accept that what ever your illness or problem in life , financial, social is on you.

People don't understand that it is all karmic related. good or bad it is on you...that is the strength of Buddhism...no blame, no justification...in the end it is on you...

[Minobu]

To clarify the causes for illnesses, there are six categories. First are illnesses caused by an imbalance of the four elements. Second are illnesses caused by one’s inability to control one’s appetite. Third are illnesses caused by an imperfect practice of meditation. Fourth are illnesses caused by demons entering into one’s body. Fifth are illnesses caused by the work of devils. Sixth are illnesses caused by the manifestation of one’s karma.

(Gosho, p. 911)

But what would be the cause to attract lets say a demon to enter your body and not another...

why would someone attract such a thing...where is the person's merit to not have such a thing happen..

if it happens ..anything happens it must be a cause in the individual to attract such a thing..

you have to have a cause for it to manifest...riches...no cause no riches...

you don't get rich cause you have zero merit for such a thing...


it's one thing to describe reason and why the illness occurs...then treat it...but what is the magnet that attracts it in the first place...karma is like gravity at times...you bring stuff upon yourself...

[Minobu]

Regarding the causes of illness, Nichiren Daishonin quoted the Great Teacher Tiantai's Maka shikan:

To clarify the causes for illnesses, there are six categories. First are illnesses caused by an imbalance of the four elements. Second are illnesses caused by one’s inability to control one’s appetite. Third are illnesses caused by an imperfect practice of meditation. Fourth are illnesses caused by demons entering into one’s body. Fifth are illnesses caused by the work of devils. Sixth are illnesses caused by the manifestation of one’s karma.

(Gosho, p. 911)

Whether we are sick or healthy, we must never neglect our practices of chanting Daimoku to the Gohonzon and doing shakubuku. True joy and happiness are derived from practicing the Law.

ok just thought of this...

we read these things and learn....This is describing different reason fro illness..

Just like Malcolm quoted from a sutra very similar reason for illness.

now in this one added to the others is illness due to Karma...thats like saying there is a sixth reason in and of itself...


but when we study Karma we find that all suffering is on us...no one to blame but yourself...we are all on our oddy knocky when it comes to developing and ripening Karma.

you just made the mistake , like Malcolm did as well, of taking a text and reading into it like evangelicals read the bible.


oh it says here there five and the sixth is karma...see THEN !!!! those others are not karmically caused...

and then when we study karma we find all things are karmically caused there are no coincidences in Buddhism...all have a cause and a effect..


you are describing 6 reasons for illness...all of them come under the heading of aspects of illness...some are just karmically created others are demons entering your body...BUT "You manifested these due to your Karma"

the 6th one is just another of the six reasons...but it's not a karma teaching ...

toodles.

[PadmaVonSamba]

So you people are saying suffering is not caused by karma..it just happens?

First of all, “not caused by karma” and “just happens” are not the only two options. Everything that occurs is the result of a cause. That’s true. But the cause isn’t always a person’s karma even though something is happening to that person.

Secondly, how a being experiences arising conditions is due to their karma. This doesn’t mean that what arises is the result of their karma.

For example, if you offer an ice cream cone with sprinkles to a hungry ghost whose mouth and neck are red and sore with inflammation, they will think maybe it’s a cactus with bits of glass stuck into it.
Although as humans we experience the ice cream as soothingly satisfying, the hungry ghost perceives it as just another type of torture.

Or, in a more common example, a person who is consumed by greed may in fact be a millionaire but at the same time constantly have the experience of never having enough to be satisfied.

Or, since we are referring to illnesses, a person born with a cognitive disability, as long as they are loved and respected along with everyone else, may never experience their limitations as suffering, just as I do not experience my inability to do calculus as suffering.

Likewise, most women (in the west, anyhow) do not regard having been born female as being the result of some negative actions in a past life. Yet, this is precisely how being born female has been regarded for centuries in much of Asia, not to mention the terrible deeds a father must have committed in past lives to in this life have daughters rather than sons!

The nature of arising causes and conditions is emptiness. They have no intrinsic value on their own. That’s why I suggested earlier that the “everything that happens to you is caused by karma” theory holds up if one believes in a permanent self (atma) but otherwise, not so much.

[tkp67]

TKP, all suffering and joy is due to Karma.
focusing on one illness and saying this or that is fine...it's not about psychiatry here it's about the effects of Karma, and the expiation of such and more importantly learning from the teachings from the Buddha about Karma.

Everyone eventually except a few burnt seeds will practice this Buddhism eventually.

Malcolm and Padmavonsambha will one day in the future finally be able to practice True Buddhism during Mappo,and get rid of their nihilistic views and their confusion over Karma.

i don't think anyone here at DW is a burnt seed.

there is this story children are told.

One day Buddha was visiting Lord Brahma , and He Saw Lord Brahma very disturbed.

He asked what was wrong and Lord Brahma said "I'm lord Brahma and as you know i hear everything sentients talk about . When they are ill they complain to me and ask why I did this to them, when they flourish they thank me for it. Please Buddha can you go and explain to them that their fortune and misfortune has nothing to do with Me."

With that Buddha taught everyone about cause and effect and Karma.

My comments are very specific to these claims

(4) attack by demons (bacteria, virus, fungi); (5) the work of devils (depression, bipolar, schizophrenia)

This might satisfy as a tie in to the post Narhwal90 was kind enough to let stand even though it lacked contextual commentary.

These subtle over reaches when accepted as truth make the tradition look as reasonable as the Abrahamic religions look to an atheist.

So you people are saying suffering is not caused by karma..it just happens ?

Not at all. What I am making clear is the demons and devils of the six illnesses are not caused by specific microbiological imbalances or specific physiological differences.

The buddha and Nichiren often talked around certain specifics because out of context of one's own life they won't remain accurate. Mapping specific ailments as root causes to a teaching that is meant to reveal sublime thought processes in a otherwise healthy mind is a counter productive and dangerous over reach.

The willingness to compromise the Hippocratic oath for zeal is a red flag to some.

[Minobu]

So you people are saying suffering is not caused by karma..it just happens?

First of all, “not caused by karma” and “just happens” are not the only two options. Everything that occurs is the result of a cause. That’s true. But the cause isn’t always a person’s karma even though something is happening to that person.

Secondly, how a being experiences arising conditions is due to their karma. This doesn’t mean that what arises is the result of their karma.

For example, if you offer an ice cream cone with sprinkles to a hungry ghost whose mouth and neck are red and sore with inflammation, they will think maybe it’s a cactus with bits of glass stuck into it.
Although as humans we experience the ice cream as soothingly satisfying, the hungry ghost perceives it as just another type of torture.

Or, in a more common example, a person who is consumed by greed may in fact be a millionaire but at the same time constantly have the experience of never having enough to be satisfied.

Or, since we are referring to illnesses, a person born with a cognitive disability, as long as they are loved and respected along with everyone else, may never experience their limitations as suffering, just as I do not experience my inability to do calculus as suffering.

Likewise, most women (in the west, anyhow) do not regard having been born female as being the result of some negative actions in a past life. Yet, this is precisely how being born female has been regarded for centuries in much of Asia, not to mention the terrible deeds a father must have committed in past lives to in this life have daughters rather than sons!

The nature of arising causes and conditions is emptiness. They have no intrinsic value on their own. That’s why I suggested earlier that the “everything that happens to you is caused by karma” theory holds up if one believes in a permanent self (atma) but otherwise, not so much.

for me it is simple.
everything is cause and effect...

offering an ice cream and having someone not enjoy it is not about karma...

i have no idea how you come up with these ...what ever they are...

but lets not get confused...

every cause has it effect...

as per your view on emptiness...it's nihilistic...you cannot toss out the existence aspect of it...you end up with something like Jim Carrey thought it was all about recently when he went on to say everything is nothing....blah...blah...

Malcolm said Dharmakaya is not a thing...i never said it was but still you cannot negate a body of the body as having no existence aspect at all...

this concept of a permanent self is wrong view..i agree...it's not inherent..but that does not mean it does not have a conventional aspect to it..

the view is the middle way ....once you want to make a point and make like it's just not there at all...thats nihilism..


the purpose is to see that though it appears real and in some ways it is but actually it cannot be real due to the nature of it having no inherent aspect.

is it total illusionary...no...but we are trapped in it ...what are we trapped in..what are we....so then we start to see how this illusion relies on so many factors to appear real and inherent...but once we know it is not ...we can realize we can escape the whole nightmare illusion...how...by expiate our karma to cling ...

to cling to what...an illusion...and yet we have been trapped in something for kalpas and kalpas..is it something..no it's an illusion...is an illusion a thing....on and on and on...

[reiun]

An example of a physical illness with a karmic cause is a thalidomide child with withered limbs.

The limbs of a child born of a mother who took thalidomide during pregnancy were malformed. They did not "wither", i.e., shrivel or shrink.

If anyone had "karma" in this example, it was probably the mom.

How about those who manufactured and sold that medicine? They created for themselves the karma of not-caring and ignorance of the effects of thalidomide. (Although Distillers Biochemicals paid out approximately £28m in compensation following a legal battle, in Britain alone.)

Exactly right. Again, not the "fault" of the child.

[tkp67]

The limbs of a child born of a mother who took thalidomide during pregnancy were malformed. They did not "wither", i.e., shrivel or shrink.

If anyone had "karma" in this example, it was probably the mom.

How about those who manufactured and sold that medicine? They created for themselves the karma of not-caring and ignorance of the effects of thalidomide. (Although Distillers Biochemicals paid out approximately £28m in compensation following a legal battle, in Britain alone.)

Exactly right. Again, not the "fault" of the child.

Precisely. More importantly "fault" is not meant to be assigned in the equation. Fault and blame imply foreknowledge which in turn denies ignorance.

Life is inherited as ordinary beings don't recall choosing to be birthed let alone the specific conditions under which their birthing is to occur. Inherited as is. Taking ownership of this inheritance without understanding how it all came to be seems to be the standard starting point.

[Minobu]

Volition is the prime reason for creating Karma.
The Big Pharma company if they knew the risk and just let it go through due to the fact they could make far more money than lose it in law suits , this is not just criminal it is a huge karmic nightmare for them.

Ford allowed those wolverine tires to be continued , even though they knew they were faulty and could cause accidents which they did.
they cost to recall was more than the lawsuits ..

It came out in the end they made far more money from no recall than the lawsuits...but the damage to their brand was a lesson learned

The concept of fault of the child is interesting.

About 30 years ago something very interesting happened in NYC.
It caught my eye big time !

so there was this very popular Jewish rabbi . Very well known , saw him over time on the telly . He was political and what not .

highly respected until.....

ok so these are not direct quotes..but the event was shocking so i recall it ...the words i use will only point to what happened...

One day he said we should get over the whole holocaust issue and move on. then he said those who were in the holocaust had to be in order to correct wrongs in a past life. They needed to go through this ..

i freaked out for he was talking about karma...a little digging and i found out yeah Jews actually believe in reincarnation . for them it is all about i think twelve lives in order to get it right...

But they don't actually teach it , which is weird...it's like some thing only a very few rabbis study..the ones that go all the way with the study.


so the thing is recall when i said it's cool to say to an actor what wonderful karma you have but to a wretch in a wheelchair from some accident it's not cool...

this rabbi became a disgrace ..like a total outcast over it.