Buddhism's causes of illness

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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:56 am
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:43 am
tkp67 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:43 pm Illness may be a gift and a cause. Nichiren teaches poison to medicine and quotes Nagarjuna "the lotus sutra is like a great physician who turns poison to medicine".


:anjali:
so would you at least consider ....for a teensy wintzy moment...that He means the poison may come in many forms or afflictions...but the medicine is working on the Karma.

give a starving man a fish and feed him for a day .Teach him to fish and feed him for life.

In this way i use the metaphor...

Cure a man of an affliction...and make him happy today...

show him how to end the continual encounters with afflictions

and teach him the way to Buddhahood...total freedom.
Sure but these things called poisons and medicines are perspectives of the same phenomenon.

The phenomenon doesn't matter the perspective does.

The latent ability to turn poison to medicine is inherent.

If there is a greater gift than that I would interested to know of it.

At some point one needs to consider who was the buddha speaking to when he said what he said and what was the purpose. The perceived context is reflective of the realm that mind is manifesting. The ten realms exist in all things because that latent potential exists in all minds.
Life at each moment encompasses the body and mind and the self and environment of all sentient beings in the Ten Worlds as well as all insentient beings in the three thousand realms, including plants, sky, earth, and even the minutest particles of dust. Life at each moment permeates the entire realm of phenomena and is revealed in all phenomena.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/1

On Attaining Buddhahood in This Lifetime
ok very nice ..but way too intellectual for me ...

so can we start with

just this one question ...

what phenomenon ?
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tkp67
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by tkp67 »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%85kh%C4%81ra

Saṅkhāra

perhaps this will suffice as the Nichiren descriptive doesn't define phenomena just their types.
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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So i'm curious TKP...

what do think is the cause for these various afflictions mentioned in Gosho and Sutra .

you know my take it is Karma...



Saṅkhāra is pointing to sunyata for me anyway...

Can you be more specific than this..
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:28 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:14 pm

ok so malcolm thinks that karma happens now and then...it sort of crops up and wham happens...so it's like a thing waiting to happen to him...
No. I think karma is caused by affliction (kleśa) and results (vipāka) in suffering (dukkha).

So the affiliation that caused the sentient to suffer arose out of no karmic cause on the part of the sentient ...but then created Karma...

:shrug:

edit simpler

So the affliction arose on it's own accord with no karma cause .....and then karma was created.

:shrug:
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:28 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:14 pm

ok so malcolm thinks that karma happens now and then...it sort of crops up and wham happens...so it's like a thing waiting to happen to him...
No. I think karma is caused by affliction (kleśa) and results (vipāka) in suffering (dukkha).

So the affiliation that caused the sentient to suffer arose out of no karmic cause on the part of the sentient ...but then created Karma...

:shrug:

edit simpler

So the affliction arose on it's own accord with no karma cause .....and then karma was created.

:shrug:
-->affliction-->action-->suffering-->affliction-->action-->suffering-->
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:53 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:36 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:28 pm

No. I think karma is caused by affliction (kleśa) and results (vipāka) in suffering (dukkha).

So the affiliation that caused the sentient to suffer arose out of no karmic cause on the part of the sentient ...but then created Karma...

:shrug:

edit simpler

So the affliction arose on it's own accord with no karma cause .....and then karma was created.

:shrug:
-->affliction-->action-->suffering-->affliction-->action-->suffering-->
so what is the cause of affliction...maybe if you can tell me that i could understand..

this is the sticking point for me Malcolm..

every effect has it's cause...

to start with affliction...out of nowhere seems contrary to cause and effect...


then it's like you say after affliction suffering...i get that but then you end up with Karma...

how is that ...it's like we are working out our karma from my angle...you got karma ...it is the cause of this sentient's affliction to bring about suffering...

but you say
No. I think karma is caused by affliction (kleśa)

do you see my problem here...in how i view the sequence of events...there has to be a cause for affiliation to arise...and i'm not talking about like well you got a virus...or you have a cancer tumour, or your humours are so out of whack...or on and on...this is all for treatment...


what is the cause for the virus to cause an affliction and then cause a suffering...
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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The affliction arises from ignorance.
Ignorance is, by definition, a minus. A negative. A lacking of some thing. it refers to that which is not there.
It’s like when you are driving and you get lost.
So, that which is ‘not there’ can also manifest a result. But you can’t point to an action (karma) as a cause for that, because no intention was there. You don’t intend to get lost.
Likewise, nobody tries to ‘not know’ the true nature of things, or the true nature of mind.
Not knowing, however, doesn’t prevent the accumulation of positive or negative karma. So, beings wander through endless lifetimes of suffering in the darkness, not even knowing there is a way out.
In that sense, you are correct in that much of what we experience is rooted in karma. But not everything.
EMPTIFUL.
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:36 pm The affliction arises from ignorance.
i don't see how the common cold arises from ignorance..but lets say for argument's sake it does...

what is the cause of this ignorance in the sentient to bring about the affliction which causes suffering...
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:41 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:36 pm The affliction arises from ignorance.
i don't see how the common cold arises from ignorance..but lets say for argument's sake it does...

what is the cause of this ignorance in the sentient to bring about the affliction which causes suffering...
What I posted.
Ignorance isn’t a thing.
Ignorance is the lack of a thing (the thing is wisdom).
Since it’s not a thing, it is not a thing produced.
Since it's not a thing produced, it’s not a result.
(of action or intention).
Since it is not a result, it has no cause.

Colds and viruses have causes but unless the person who catches one does so intentionally (or recklessly meaning with knowledge of the risk, thus not out of ignorance) then it can’t be determined that catching an illness is the result of karma.
EMPTIFUL.
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:41 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:36 pm The affliction arises from ignorance.
i don't see how the common cold arises from ignorance..but lets say for argument's sake it does...

what is the cause of this ignorance in the sentient to bring about the affliction which causes suffering...
Suffering conditions affliction, which causes karma, which causes more suffering, which conditions more affliction, etc. There is no beginning in other words.
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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just for the record...i've been wrong all along...
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:07 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:41 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:36 pm The affliction arises from ignorance.
i don't see how the common cold arises from ignorance..but lets say for argument's sake it does...

what is the cause of this ignorance in the sentient to bring about the affliction which causes suffering...
Suffering conditions affliction, which causes karma, which causes more suffering, which conditions more affliction, etc. There is no beginning in other words.
There are also positive mental factors and states in the Sravakayana and the Mahayana, in sutras and abhidharma, like for example Root of the beneficial lack of greed, Root of the beneficial lack of hatred, and Root of the beneficial lack of ignorance, (from Vasubandhu and Arthviniscaya sutra commentary). You can put these three, or one or two of them, in the beginning of the twelve Nidanas, and you will get a more positive flavor to the whole thing of becoming and the cessation of negative mental factors. There are also other positive mental factors mentioned in the sutras and abhidharma, like for example Five spiritual faculties, the Five powers, etc... and the Ten wholesome mental factors (kuśala mahābhūmikā dharmāḥ) which accompany the wholesome consciousnesses (kusala citta):
Śraddhā - faith
Vīrya - energy
Hrī - shame at doing evil
Apatrāpya - decorum, regard for consequence
Alobha - non-attachment
Adveṣa - non-aggression
Praśrabdhi - calmness
Upekṣā - equanimity
Apramāda - conscientiousness
Ahiṃsā - non-injuriousness
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

Aemilius wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 7:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:07 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:41 pm
i don't see how the common cold arises from ignorance..but lets say for argument's sake it does...

what is the cause of this ignorance in the sentient to bring about the affliction which causes suffering...
Suffering conditions affliction, which causes karma, which causes more suffering, which conditions more affliction, etc. There is no beginning in other words.
You can put these three, or one or two of them, in the beginning of the twelve Nidanas
But here the point is to explain the etiology of illness.
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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Not wishing to be splitting hairs, but I have heard that the states of dhyana and prajña can also be causes of illness. Has it not been said that illness can be, or it should be seen as, sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya? -Somewhere in the tantric or mahayana tradition?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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Aemilius wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:35 pm Not wishing to be splitting hairs, but I have heard that the states of dhyana and prajña can also be causes of illness.

I suppose a state of Dhyana could reveal some hidden negative factor within our minds that we were previously unaware of; but I’m not sure that would actually cause illness, unless maybe we’re so in denial about what we see, that it makes us sick. Meaning that we grasp said negativity as real and vehemently reject it at the same time. I’m just speculating on what you might mean here.

Or perhaps there could be times where through our practice, we eliminate some old karma, and in doing so make way for some other different old karma to crop up that otherwise would not have cropped up until later...(?)

Has it not been said that illness can be, or it should be seen as, sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya? -Somewhere in the tantric or mahayana tradition?

The only thing I can think of even remotely similar to that, is where teachings have said something about seeing obstacles as Siddhis, or something like that. Although maybe it has also been said in terms of the Rupakaya, and not just Siddhis...
Last edited by Sādhaka on Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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Sādhaka wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:57 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:35 pm
Has it not been said that illness can be, or it should be seen as, sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya? -Somewhere in the tantric or mahayana tradition?

The only thing I can think of even remotely similar to that, is where teachings have said something about seeing obstacles as Siddhis, or something like that. Although maybe it has also been said in terms of the Rupakaya, and not just Siddhis...

What I am remembering is at least in the Mahamudra instructions of the 9th Karmapa, -I hope that is the correct number-, can't find it now, but something similar is in a text of Jigtem Sumgon:

"These are the instructions for taking thoughts, mental afflictions, illness (nad), and demons (gdon) as the path. These, too, are to be practised as not arising from anywhere, not disappearing anywhere, abiding neither outside nor inside, and not existing anywhere, that is, they are the four kāyas. In the instruction translated below, afflictions and illnesses seem to be mentioned at the beginning as the armour of the outer view. Concerning the afflictions, Jigten Sumgön mentions (as he does in his Single Intention 6.17) that one would have to be very attentive concerning even the most subtle evil. Proceeding like that, the virtuous disciplined conduct is never interrupted. Concerning illnesses, the instruction translated below states that neither the illnesses of the outer body nor the sufferings of the inner mind are to be abandoned. That is, they are not to be seen as a “bad” thing to be removed, but rather as something to be taken as the path. In general, instructions of how to take thoughts, mental afflictions, illnesses, and demons as the path can be found in many teachings of Jigten Sumgön (which can hopefully be explored on another occasion)."
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

Aemilius wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:43 am
Sādhaka wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:57 pm
Aemilius wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:35 pm



The only thing I can think of even remotely similar to that, is where teachings have said something about seeing obstacles as Siddhis, or something like that. Although maybe it has also been said in terms of the Rupakaya, and not just Siddhis...

What I am remembering is at least in the Mahamudra instructions of the 9th Karmapa, -I hope that is the correct number-, can't find it now, but something similar is in a text of Jigtem Sumgon:

"These are the instructions for taking thoughts, mental afflictions, illness (nad), and demons (gdon) as the path. These, too, are to be practised as not arising from anywhere, not disappearing anywhere, abiding neither outside nor inside, and not existing anywhere, that is, they are the four kāyas. In the instruction translated below, afflictions and illnesses seem to be mentioned at the beginning as the armour of the outer view. Concerning the afflictions, Jigten Sumgön mentions (as he does in his Single Intention 6.17) that one would have to be very attentive concerning even the most subtle evil. Proceeding like that, the virtuous disciplined conduct is never interrupted. Concerning illnesses, the instruction translated below states that neither the illnesses of the outer body nor the sufferings of the inner mind are to be abandoned. That is, they are not to be seen as a “bad” thing to be removed, but rather as something to be taken as the path. In general, instructions of how to take thoughts, mental afflictions, illnesses, and demons as the path can be found in many teachings of Jigten Sumgön (which can hopefully be explored on another occasion)."
interesting !.

so i always have a problem with what appears as dismissing suffering due to the nature of emptiness.

Now i think what you just wrote embarks there but also one could take it as a means to be able to deal with the horror of it all.

Then also see that the path will always include suffering and that needs to be addressed.

so it's a bit of a conundrum for me...

i'm not saying i'm some sort of empath...but compassion for others has always driven me...all of my relationships with women have been the cause of helping them out and then getting involved totally...

so I'm very concerned with suffering . My semi gangster dad who sounded very brooklynesque in his accent would always say to me in a very 1920's lingo "Ya got Heart Kid !...

Nichiren's approach is not to deny where it comes from ...and to soldier on with a Buddhist practice in order to make some kind of sense to it all...

I still have the impression Karma plays a huge role....but have learned isn't the root cause to the myriad of sufferings that appear...

still that gives me no comfort at all...


Buddha came to liberate us from suffering...Lord Nagarjuna showed us the nature of it....Nichiren offers a practice to deal with it ...

We chant to overcome obstacles to our liberation...the obstacles are suffering based...whether karmic or many of the other afflictions that are present ..

we are taught that there are three poisons latent in our existence that leads to suffering... so we are fraked from the start...

the game is fraked ...so we liberate ourselves from the game...
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Minobu wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:00 pmI always have a problem with what appears as dismissing suffering due to the nature of emptiness.
something to keep in mind is that emptiness (suñata) isn’t a thing on its own. It’s not some kind of cosmic force. Emptiness can only be used to describe the true nature of (other) things. So, there isn’t really any ‘nature of emptiness’.

So, suffering (Dukkha) isn’t due to any ‘nature of emptiness’ but rather due to not realizing the true (emptiness) nature of appearances (things).
For example, we think, “this object will satisfy my craving for happiness” forgetting that the true nature of that object is emptiness, meaning dependently arising, a composite, and thus eventually destined to fail to bring lasting happiness.
EMPTIFUL.
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:36 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:00 pmI always have a problem with what appears as dismissing suffering due to the nature of emptiness.
something to keep in mind is that emptiness (suñata) isn’t a thing on its own. It’s not some kind of cosmic force. Emptiness can only be used to describe the true nature of (other) things. So, there isn’t really any ‘nature of emptiness’.
Actually there is a point where the view becomes, The emptiness of emptiness.

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:36 pm
So, suffering (Dukkha) isn’t due to any ‘nature of emptiness’ but rather due to not realizing the true (emptiness) nature of appearances (things).
For example, we think, “this object will satisfy my craving for happiness” forgetting that the true nature of that object is emptiness, meaning dependently arising, a composite, and thus eventually destined to fail to bring lasting happiness.
I don't think you even tried to see what i was talking about..

just jumped in with unrelated personal bravado of your understanding of sunyata....
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

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when i typed

so i always have a problem with what appears as dismissing suffering due to the nature of emptiness.

Now i think what you just wrote embarks there but also one could take it as a means to be able to deal with the horror of it all.
It comes from a discussion where His Holiness the Dali Lama said the concept of emptiness makes the reality of suffering bearable.

i just interpreted as i see others are explaining the nature of suffering from a deep understanding of Sunyata.

which is cool...but i have a problem with that.
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