Buddhism's causes of illness

Malcolm
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:18 pm Well obviously as anyone can see I am hard wired to believe that karma is at the root cause to what ever life moment we are in
These are the Buddha's words on the subject, perhaps they will disrupt your "hard-wiring."
Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said:

"There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?"

"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma — (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."

When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html

Thus, when you claim everything, including illness, is caused by karma, then you, like them, "go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world."
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:55 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:18 pm Well obviously as anyone can see I am hard wired to believe that karma is at the root cause to what ever life moment we are in
These are the Buddha's words on the subject, perhaps they will disrupt your "hard-wiring."
Once the Blessed One dwelled at Rajagaha in the Bamboo-Grove Monastery, at the Squirrel's Feeding Place. There a wandering ascetic, Moliya Sivaka by name, called on the Blessed One, and after an exchange of courteous and friendly words, sat down at one side. Thus seated, he said:

"There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?"

"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma — (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."

When this was spoken, Moliya Sivaka, the wandering ascetic, said: "It is excellent, revered Gotama, it is excellent indeed!...May the revered Gotama regard me as a lay follower who, from today, has taken refuge in him as long as life lasts."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html

Thus, when you claim everything, including illness, is caused by karma, then you, like them, "go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world."
is this a theravada text ?
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

again i'm hard wired to believe more aptly that all moments are influenced by karma..

now this does not mean i got punched in the nose therefore i must have punched someone in the nose in a past life...

that would be like some kind of destiny thing..or what the text is describing...

Karma is like a foggy lense...until it is cleaned all experiences are going to be imbued with it...

even if you read that text it is not denying what i see as what influences each moment.
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:57 pm
is this a theravada text ?
It is the word of the Buddha.
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:01 pm even if you read that text it is not denying what i see as what influences each moment.
It is flatly contradicting you.
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:10 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:01 pm even if you read that text it is not denying what i see as what influences each moment.
It is flatly contradicting you.
actually it is describing the punch in the nose thing...which is the first thing i learned about karma it does not work that way it is more like a foggy lense..

also it is theravada text you are using......why dodge the question..

you don't know how to interpret these things...
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:16 pm
also it is theravada text you are using......why dodge the question..
Yes, the Pali Canon is the word of the Buddha.
you don't know how to interpret these things...
You are entitled to your opinion, of course.
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:22 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:16 pm
also it is theravada text you are using......why dodge the question..
Yes, the Pali Canon is the word of the Buddha.
you don't know how to interpret these things...
You are entitled to your opinion, of course.
lol

you never allow yourself to say you are wrong..

so you to deny that karma influences each and every moment....and just sort of happens now and then
OLO...pun on lol///



shows something about you...
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:22 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:16 pm
also it is theravada text you are using......why dodge the question..
Yes, the Pali Canon is the word of the Buddha.
you don't know how to interpret these things...
You are entitled to your opinion, of course.
lol

so you to deny that karma influences each and every moment..
except that gap between moments
Genjo Conan
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Genjo Conan »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:16 pm

also it is theravada text you are using......why dodge the question..

you don't know how to interpret these things...
Much of the Pali Sutta Tipitaka corresponds to the Chinese Agamas which, as far as I know, are accepted as canonical by every branch of East Asian Mahayana. Unfortunately, the Agamas haven't been translated into English as thoroughly as have the Pali Nikayas, so it's often easier to cite to the Pali.

In this case, the Sivaka Sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 36:21, corresponds with Samyuktagama 977, which is available in Chinese here: https://suttacentral.net/sa977/lzh/taisho. If there's an English translation available on the web, I can't find it, but Google Translate seems to show that the upshot of the sutra is the same as the Pali text.

Additionally, this person on the Sutta Central website translates the key part of the Sutra like this:
“Sometimes suffering arises from wind, and sentient beings experience it. Sometimes it arises from bile. Sometimes it arises from phlegm. Sometimes it arises from equal parts (of the previous three). Sometimes they harm themselves. Sometimes other harm them. Sometimes the cause is the season.”

The sutras spends time explaining the last three. Harming themselves means self-mortifying practices of the heretics. Harmed by others means physical violence and abuse. The seasons refers to extreme weather like storms, heat waves, and extremely cold winters.

After that, the sutra goes into the mental bonds that cause suffering: Greed, anger, torpor, discontent-regret, and doubt. These are eliminated by the eightfold path.
YMMV--I don't know Chinese, so can't speak to the accuracy of the translation, but it seems to line up with the translations from the Pali.

There are certainly differences between sravaka texts and Mahayana texts, and we should be conscious of those differences, but sometimes Buddhavacana is just Buddhavacana.
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:22 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:16 pm
also it is theravada text you are using......why dodge the question..
Yes, the Pali Canon is the word of the Buddha.
you don't know how to interpret these things...
You are entitled to your opinion, of course.
lol

you never allow yourself to say you are wrong..
On this point, I am not wrong.
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:00 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:22 pm

Yes, the Pali Canon is the word of the Buddha.



You are entitled to your opinion, of course.
lol

you never allow yourself to say you are wrong..
On this point, I am not wrong.
ok so malcolm thinks that karma happens now and then...it sort of crops up and wham happens...so it's like a thing waiting to happen to him...

I think it influences each and every moment....
Buddhism is about blowing out all the Karma...whether it is good or bad karma ...if you need a label.

once freed you no longer are forced into a samsaric realm ...and yet if enlightened when this happens can choose to enter a realm for some reason...more than likely to help those who have no idea whats happening...

case closed.

thank you malcolm for showing us what you think and how you post.
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:14 pm

ok so malcolm thinks that karma happens now and then...it sort of crops up and wham happens...so it's like a thing waiting to happen to him...
No. I think karma is caused by affliction (kleśa) and results (vipāka) in suffering (dukkha).

BTW, there is no daylight between how affliction, karma, and suffering are presented in Mahāyāna sūtras and Śrāvakayāna sūtras. For example, Nāgārjuna's Commentary on his Heart of Dependent Origination:


Question: Which links are affliction, which are action karma, and which are suffering? Into which of these twelve will [affliction, action, and suffering] be included?

Reply:

The first, eighth and ninth links are affliction.

The first of the twelve links is ignorance (āvidya); the eighth link is craving (ṭṛṣṇā); the ninth link is addiction, (upādana). These three should be understood as affliction. If is asked which of those [twelve links] is action:

The second and the tenth links are action.

The second link is formations (saṃskāra) and the tenth link is existence (bhāva). These two dharmas can be understood to be included in action.

Also, the remaining seven links are suffering.

Question: Those different [previous dharmas] were included in defilement and action, but which are the seven different remaining?

Reply: Those can be understood to be included in suffering. These terms consciousness (vijñāna), name and form (nāmarūpa), six sense bases (ṣada-āyatana), contact, (sparśa), sensation (vedana), birth (jati), and aging and death (jarāmaraṇa) are inclusive of the sufferings such as the suffering of being separated from what is pleasant, meeting with what is unpleasant, and abandonment of the pleasurable.


So you see, the ultimate cause of suffering is affliction, not karma. Affliction causes karma, which then results in suffering. You are not going to find in the sūtras, whether Mahāyāna or Śrāvakayāna, any explanation that diverges from this.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:28 pm You are not going to find in the sūtras, whether Mahāyāna or Śrāvakayāna, any explanation that diverges from this.
Some folks are only interested in one sutra,
sometimes only learning the title of it
And from that, they magically know more than everyone else,
and that’s plenty enough for them.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Malcolm
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Malcolm »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:28 pm You are not going to find in the sūtras, whether Mahāyāna or Śrāvakayāna, any explanation that diverges from this.
Some folks are only interested in one sutra,
sometimes only learning the title of it
And from that, they magically know more than everyone else,
and that’s plenty enough for them.
:reading:
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tkp67
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:08 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:28 pm You are not going to find in the sūtras, whether Mahāyāna or Śrāvakayāna, any explanation that diverges from this.
Some folks are only interested in one sutra,
sometimes only learning the title of it
And from that, they magically know more than everyone else,
and that’s plenty enough for them.
:reading:
The state of awareness is not magic it just lacks self without a compromise to pure boundless compassion in regards to sentient life.

It is how the storehouse of buddhist wisdom is accessed. Once again nothing magical to it at all.

It functions based on desire and intent. Once again not magic but an inherent human capacity which humans choose to express or not.

Practicing this sutra is voluntary and the benefits immeasurable.

As far as illness a buddha or great bodhisattva can manifest or choose birth in any form. They abide in all phenomenon. A birth as a human is precious so the karma causing achievement is fortunate unless one believes they were a human king in their past life. Illness may be a gift and a cause. Nichiren teaches poison to medicine and quotes Nagarjuna "the lotus sutra is like a great physician who turns poison to medicine".

I have posted the citations before but would be glad to post them again since they seem forgotten. Please just let me know it would be my pleasure.

:anjali:
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:28 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:14 pm

ok so malcolm thinks that karma happens now and then...it sort of crops up and wham happens...so it's like a thing waiting to happen to him...
No. I think karma is caused by affliction (kleśa) and results (vipāka) in suffering (dukkha).

BTW, there is no daylight between how affliction, karma, and suffering are presented in Mahāyāna sūtras and Śrāvakayāna sūtras. For example, Nāgārjuna's Commentary on his Heart of Dependent Origination:


Question: Which links are affliction, which are action karma, and which are suffering? Into which of these twelve will [affliction, action, and suffering] be included?

Reply:

The first, eighth and ninth links are affliction.

The first of the twelve links is ignorance (āvidya); the eighth link is craving (ṭṛṣṇā); the ninth link is addiction, (upādana). These three should be understood as affliction. If is asked which of those [twelve links] is action:

The second and the tenth links are action.

The second link is formations (saṃskāra) and the tenth link is existence (bhāva). These two dharmas can be understood to be included in action.

Also, the remaining seven links are suffering.

Question: Those different [previous dharmas] were included in defilement and action, but which are the seven different remaining?

Reply: Those can be understood to be included in suffering. These terms consciousness (vijñāna), name and form (nāmarūpa), six sense bases (ṣada-āyatana), contact, (sparśa), sensation (vedana), birth (jati), and aging and death (jarāmaraṇa) are inclusive of the sufferings such as the suffering of being separated from what is pleasant, meeting with what is unpleasant, and abandonment of the pleasurable.


So you see, the ultimate cause of suffering is affliction, not karma. Affliction causes karma, which then results in suffering. You are not going to find in the sūtras, whether Mahāyāna or Śrāvakayāna, any explanation that diverges from this.
Never claimed afflictins are anything but what there are various afflication...


You see you want to analyze the bejjevvers out of Buddhism...but Nichiren understood it .what

Why Buddha's come here for ,and actually get done ,and for what reason...

Sentients affiliations .Affliction of mind body and dharma Body...

now you can go on how this is all not really happening it's all empty and an illusion...

But still buddhas come here to help sentients suffering from various afflictions..

the number one teaching which Nichiren understood...was it is all to do with Karma and here is how you eradicate Karma for yourself....

It's the one thing Buddha does not do...cure your karma...But leaves a very simple and directly effective way of relieving those afflictions...killing them permannetly...ok so they like never stop....but the train needs to be stopped....

Lotus Buddhism....It's the end all of the sutra campaign...lol...all the non buddhist teachings paving the way...making sentients ready for it....

Make no mistake Nichiren fully understood emptiness and the sutras and the whole thing...he was surrounded by masters and people like ... what you have here online...

Oh the louder they explain about the nothing of it all and the illusion...and further they can make like it is all an illusion anyway....


the further they get from the crux of Buddhism


Relieving and curing afflictions.

Oh you can meditate on Mahamudra or Dzogchen till the cows return but this is not going to relieve you of Karma...

This wakening you talk off ...what is it....have you done it ....hopefully you say yes cause it is all you talk about...

the thing does not happen for you to suddenly be awakened to some intellectual non duality non grasping moment in a meditation......it happens so you have the power to aid, to help out, to show ...it's nothing intellectual at all...zippo...whole other ting mon !


it's all compassion based...Nichiren teaches how non Buddhist religions and philosophy are stepping stones to the lotus Buddhism...


The Gakki have it 100% right...they are not some made up cult out to take over the world... Sensei Ikeda is a man of peace...

He worked very hard under Toda to help build the gakki through ACTUAL PROOF....

He was there after WWII and did the job....Healing people...getting their lives to go on....using that to teach Buddhism...

change your karma....or nothing happens....why is it every affliction you can come up with happens to sentients due to Karma...


no karma ...no suffering....

so you can read your interpretation of sunyata and MahaMudra , which basically starts out observing your mind...and then with the help of a qualified guru ...that moment where it's in between moments and thoughts...and learn how to sit there....and see many things and understand things very clearly....


but it was merit that brought you there...the type of merit ,one has to work for,,,


thats why the Gakki...KNEW and KNOW....

In the trenches with mr. and mrs Jolly so all the little Jollies can overcome some nightmare of the underprivileged to put food on table and make a better life...so many down home experiences..


they know nothing of sunyata...but they actually changed some of their Karma...

thats buddhism 101 Mappo...
Sensei ikeda was an ,and hopefully still is around....IS a man of peace...say what you will but he was there when most needed in a district ...and a chapter and onward...

The man was so good at it....vast amount of people end up hating the guy and with unfounded slander and do their best to bring him down....

real nice eh....been there...done that ...you saw it...

so like Malcolm you can teach death bed what ever and all this super explanation for it all not being anywhere but in your mind and then unto not even in your mind....GO BIG intellectualize ...and get it wrong dude ...all around from a Nichiren perspective...

it does not address what Nichiren and the Gakki ran with....what they knew Buddha came for ...what nichiren put his neck out for...

saving others...helping them not to just have a better life now but in future rebirths...

My ole man's last words were witnessed by people...i wasn't there but i know me ole man...He came out of a Coma looked at the people in the room and chanted Nam Myo ho Ren Ge Kyo...

now like i know he did not attain Buddhahood ...but was like showing us what was important...weird thing is one of the members who was there when he died...20 minutes after i came to him and said my final good bye and you were the best and all that ....she said after he dies his feet went from freezing cold cause my mom said they were when she said feel this...warm as toast..My mopm yelled for the doctor...said feel this...he said i know Ethel...it's been like that for some time now due to circulation..they all are like that...then she demands feel feet and he just says ...another mystery...cause this was the Christian docotr who knew his bone marow came to life and was treating him with plasmapheresisfor months when we moved to toronto...




seriously this is the Nichiren section and like he could debate with the best of the best...but his life's work is all about changing your karma...

seeing that all you go through is due to karma...and this is the only way to eradicate karma en'masses easy peasy....

Look i loved taking Lord Vajrasattva Buddha Tantra...i mean like purify each node with it.....each petal of each Chakra...

when i took Lord Yamantaka Buddha initiation a pre requisite to Lady Vajra Yogini Buddha Tantra...here listen up...


so we put the Kushi grass under our Mattress and go to the land of nod at home...
The next day Rinpoche talks about the dreams...He first explains if you saw a lot of Black in your Dream it's not really a good thing and would explain later...so he asks...people said this dream that dream i put up me hand and it's ...

So there is huge Pitch shiney Black glistening pipe ...like an oil refinery pipeline deal...and there is this piece cut out so i can see inside....It's like pure black water thick gushing through it like real fast and powerful...like niagra falls...

Rinpoche says that represents your Karma...i said .....there was soooo much...everyone laughs ....laughing he said.....you , only you can get rid of that...lots of work ahead of you...


so what ever ...I'm into what Nichiren taught...all his gosho are letters of encouragement...not all but most you read are directed at relieving the every day nightmare...of people ..just people...
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Minobu
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:52 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:28 pm You are not going to find in the sūtras, whether Mahāyāna or Śrāvakayāna, any explanation that diverges from this.
Some folks are only interested in one sutra,
sometimes only learning the title of it
And from that, they magically know more than everyone else,
and that’s plenty enough for them.
very clever....hope you find immense pleasure in posting it.
Last edited by Minobu on Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:43 pm Illness may be a gift and a cause. Nichiren teaches poison to medicine and quotes Nagarjuna "the lotus sutra is like a great physician who turns poison to medicine".


:anjali:
so would you at least consider ....for a teensy wintzy moment...that He means the poison may come in many forms or afflictions...but the medicine is working on the Karma.

give a starving man a fish and feed him for a day .Teach him to fish and feed him for life.

In this way i use the metaphor...

Cure a man of an affliction...and make him happy today...

show him how to end the continual encounters with afflictions

and teach him the way to Buddhahood...total freedom.
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tkp67
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Re: Buddhism's causes of illness

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:43 am
tkp67 wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:43 pm Illness may be a gift and a cause. Nichiren teaches poison to medicine and quotes Nagarjuna "the lotus sutra is like a great physician who turns poison to medicine".


:anjali:
so would you at least consider ....for a teensy wintzy moment...that He means the poison may come in many forms or afflictions...but the medicine is working on the Karma.

give a starving man a fish and feed him for a day .Teach him to fish and feed him for life.

In this way i use the metaphor...

Cure a man of an affliction...and make him happy today...

show him how to end the continual encounters with afflictions

and teach him the way to Buddhahood...total freedom.
Sure but these things called poisons and medicines are perspectives of the same phenomenon.

The phenomenon doesn't matter the perspective does.

The latent ability to turn poison to medicine is inherent.

If there is a greater gift than that I would interested to know of it.

At some point one needs to consider who was the buddha speaking to when he said what he said and what was the purpose. The perceived context is reflective of the realm that mind is manifesting. The ten realms exist in all things because that latent potential exists in all minds.
Life at each moment encompasses the body and mind and the self and environment of all sentient beings in the Ten Worlds as well as all insentient beings in the three thousand realms, including plants, sky, earth, and even the minutest particles of dust. Life at each moment permeates the entire realm of phenomena and is revealed in all phenomena.
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