Correcting wrong thought

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illarraza
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Correcting wrong thought

Post by illarraza »

Correcting wrong thought was the practice of Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren. Since, for this time and place, our practice accords with the Noble Eightfold Path and the world is steeped in wrong thought, action, etc., the Lotus Sutra gives us a directive to correct wrong thought. It is not for the sake of being argumentitive, it is for the benefit of the person and society. This is also known as the forceful practices (shakubuku) of the Lotus Sutra. True, there are some of us who are "gentle and pliant" who are unwilling or unable to perform the forceful practices. In that case, they perform the gentle practices (shoju) of the Lotus Sutra, setting an example for others. However, Nichiren teaches that even if one is able only to perform the gentle practices, they should support those who are capable and willing to speak and act forcefully. Just some food for thought and a nidus for discussion if you agree or disagree.
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by reiun »

For some, your recommended approach will not be a problem, as long as you accept they may turn self-righteous proselytization back on you.
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Well, the question is how do "forceful methods" differ from simply "acting like an ass".

Interestingly, one advantage of modernity is that we actually have a lot of data on how people change, when they actually decide to change.

Generally the outlook for the "forceful" variety of change is not very good. Telling people where they are wrong or condemning them does not yield very effective results overall. There are times where "tough love" type approaches might be needed, but (at least if we go by the studies that exist on this) their effectiveness is dwarfed by things like simply asking people compelling questions.

So, if one spends all their time just telling others they are wrong, there is a good chance the vast majority of that effort is going to go to waste.
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Minobu
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by Minobu »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 11:34 pm Well, the question is how do "forceful methods" differ from simply "acting like an ass".

Interestingly, one advantage of modernity is that we actually have a lot of data on how people change, when they actually decide to change.

Generally the outlook for the "forceful" variety of change is not very good. Telling people where they are wrong or condemning them does not yield very effective results overall. There are times where "tough love" type approaches might be needed, but (at least if we go by the studies that exist on this) their effectiveness is dwarfed by things like simply asking people compelling questions.

So, if one spends all their time just telling others they are wrong, there is a good chance the vast majority of that effort is going to go to waste.
:good:

I agree here whole heartedly...great reminder...


Nichiren Shonin never said one thing against any of the Buddha's Teachings...He was loyal and true.

His view of the whole time and capacity which he draws from TenTAi the Great and the Lotus sutra He does not back down on ..it nearly got Him killed and /He was tossed in exile...

Some say this and some say that...

But I think it was what became of Buddhism from his inside look at the aristcocity and the gap between the Peasants.

So like burning bras to start a movement ...get the wheel to move...He went to the extreme and it pissed people off...

that being said...

When I do the basic practice it enhances my other meditations ...So like yeah we live in a modern world and we can make choices...

without the basic practice as a solid base ...not much happens ...I'm not educated and it's all experience for me...I know Rinpoche saw that in me...

but Like any sect one needs the pure bordering on fanatic to maintain what ever practice is handed down ...lineage and all that...


and i love those people that stick to it..without them it gets watered down...and totally changed...


so for me i see the beauty in it all...
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by Minobu »

I should have used the words “those he keep the religion pure”. Instead of fanatics. Fanatics is way off the mark. Or what I was trying to convey
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by tkp67 »

Admittedly it is a bit lengthy but it illustrates the predicates Nichiren had for propagating the lotus sutra. The internet and the western peoples who use it are not places where dharma is understood as it was in Japan. Correction is a bit of the cart leading the horse as I see it.

The following does show that Nichiren considered many factors of which a connection the true dharma was the ultimate objective regardless of potential scenario.

Question: What about the passage in the Lotus Sutra that says, “Do not preach this sutra to persons who are without wisdom”?2

Answer
: When I speak of understanding capacity, I am referring to preaching by a person of wisdom. Again, one should preach only the Lotus Sutra even to those who slander the Law, so that they may establish a so-called “poison-drum relationship” with it. In this respect, one should proceed as Bodhisattva Never Disparaging did.

However, if one is speaking to persons who one knows have the capacity to become wise, then one should first instruct them in the Hinayana teachings, then instruct them in the provisional Mahayana teachings, and finally instruct them in the true Mahayana. But if speaking to those one knows to be ignorant persons of lesser capacity, then one should first instruct them in the true Mahayana teaching. In that way, whether they choose to believe in the teaching or to slander it, they will still receive the seeds of Buddhahood.

Third is the consideration of time. Anyone who hopes to spread the Buddhist teachings must make certain to understand the time. For example, if a farmer were to plant his fields in autumn and winter, then, even though the seed and the land and the farmer’s efforts were the same as ever, this planting would not result in the slightest gain but rather would end in loss. If the farmer planted one small plot in that way, he would suffer a minor loss, and if he planted acres and acres, he would suffer a major loss. But if he plows and plants in the spring and summer, then, whether the fields are of superior, medium, or inferior quality, each will bring forth its corresponding share of crops.

The preaching of the Buddhist teachings is similar to this. If one propagates the teaching without understanding the time, one will reap no benefit but, on the contrary, will fall into the evil paths. When Shakyamuni Buddha made his appearance in this world, he was determined to preach the Lotus Sutra. But though the capacities of his listeners may have been right, the proper time had not yet come. Therefore, he spent a period of more than forty years without preaching the Lotus Sutra, explaining, as he says in the Lotus Sutra itself, that “the time to preach so had not yet come.”3

The day after the Buddha’s passing begins the thousand-year period known as the Former Day of the Law, when those who uphold the precepts are many while those who break them are few. The day after the end of the Former Day of the Law marks the beginning of the thousand-year period known as the Middle Day of the Law, when those who break the precepts are many while those without precepts are few. And the day after the ending of the Middle Day of the Law begins the ten-thousand-year period known as the Latter Day of the Law, when those who break the precepts are few while those without precepts are many.

During the Former Day of the Law, one should cast aside those who break the precepts, or who have no precepts p.50at all, giving alms only to those who uphold the precepts. During the Middle Day of the Law, one should cast aside those without precepts and give alms only to those who break them. And during the Latter Day of the Law, one should give alms to those without precepts, treating them in the same way as if they were the Buddha.

However, whether in the Former, the Middle, or the Latter Day of the Law, one should never in any of these three periods give alms to those who slander the Lotus Sutra, whether they keep the precepts, break the precepts, or do not receive them at all. If alms are given to those who slander the Lotus Sutra, then the land will invariably be visited by the three calamities and seven disasters, and the persons who give such alms will surely fall into the great citadel of the hell of incessant suffering.

When the votary of the Lotus Sutra denounces the provisional sutras, it is like a ruler, a parent, or a teacher disciplining a retainer, a son, or a disciple. But when practitioners of the provisional sutras denounce the Lotus Sutra, it is like retainers, sons, or disciples attempting to punish their ruler, parent, or teacher.

At present, it has been 210 or more years since we entered the Latter Day of the Law. One should consider very carefully whether now is a time best suited for the provisional sutras or Nembutsu teachings, or whether it is the time when the Lotus Sutra should spread.

Fourth is the consideration of the country. One must never fail to take into account the kind of country in which one is spreading the Buddhist teachings. There are cold countries, hot countries, poor countries, rich countries, central countries, and peripheral countries, large countries and small countries, countries wholly given over to thieving, countries wholly given over to the killing of living things, and countries known for their utter lack of filial piety. In addition, there are countries wholly devoted to the Hinayana teachings, countries wholly devoted to the Mahayana teachings, and countries in which both Hinayana and Mahayana are pursued. In the case of Japan, therefore, we must carefully consider whether it is a country suited exclusively to Hinayana, a country suited exclusively to Mahayana, or a country suited for the practice of both Hinayana and Mahayana.

Fifth is the sequence of propagation. In a country where the Buddhist teachings have never been introduced, there of course will be none who are familiar with Buddhism. But in a country where Buddhism has already been introduced, there will be those who believe in the Buddhist teachings. Therefore, one must first learn what kind of Buddhist doctrines have already spread in a particular country before attempting to propagate Buddhism there.

If the Hinayana and provisional Mahayana teachings have already spread, then one should by all means propagate the true Mahayana teaching. But if the true Mahayana teaching has already spread, then one must not propagate the Hinayana or provisional Mahayana teachings. One throws aside shards and rubble in order to pick up gold and gems, but one must not throw aside gold and gems in order to pick up shards and rubble.

If one takes the five principles outlined above into account when propagating the Buddhist teachings, then one can surely become a teacher to the entire nation of Japan. To understand that the Lotus Sutra is the king of sutras, the foremost among them all, is to have a correct understanding of the teaching.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/7

The Teaching, Capacity, Time, and Country
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by Caoimhghín »

illarraza wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 9:29 pmThis is also known as the forceful practices (shakubuku) of the Lotus Sutra.
IMO, the problem is when unlearned dilettantes unfamiliar with the actual text of the Lotus Sutra, as well as unfamiliar with the Buddhadharma in general, intuit novel interpretations of doctrine from the writings of Nichiren (which presume an audience literate in at least the very basics of "the Dharma," otherwise the various references and terms he uses are meaningless to his interlocutors), novel doctrines he never came up with that are read into his writings by bad readers. Then, those bad readers see it as their duty to engage in "forceful practices" that actively slander and symbolically "destroy" the Lotus.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:29 pm
illarraza wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 9:29 pmThis is also known as the forceful practices (shakubuku) of the Lotus Sutra.
IMO, the problem is when unlearned dilettantes unfamiliar with the actual text of the Lotus Sutra, as well as unfamiliar with the Buddhadharma in general, intuit novel interpretations of doctrine from the writings of Nichiren (which presume an audience literate in at least the very basics of "the Dharma," otherwise the various references and terms he uses are meaningless to his interlocutors), novel doctrines he never came up with that are read into his writings by bad readers. Then, those bad readers see it as their duty to engage in "forceful practices" that actively slander and symbolically "destroy" the Lotus.
that is what you wish to read into what he said.
I who practice daily see it as something other.

He is describing Shoju and shakkabukku.
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by Caoimhghín »

And I am describing how shakubuku is incompetently performed by some Nichiren Buddhists. I think the incompetent performance of shakubuku is a significant issue here in this subforum that anyone with even some basic instruction in the Dharma can see, when people feel like they ought to be correcting others when they themselves do not understand what they are talking and merely "feel like" they understand what they are talking about.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by tkp67 »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:28 pm And I am describing how shakubuku is incompetently performed by some Nichiren Buddhists. I think the incompetent performance of shakubuku is a significant issue here in this subforum that anyone with even some basic instruction in the Dharma can see, when people feel like they ought to be correcting others when they themselves do not understand what they are talking and merely "feel like" they understand what they are talking about.
Perhaps this was part of the design. Isn't that type of misinformation the type that calls for correction? If there is no one capable of making the correction what correction is there to be had? If there is someone capable of making the correction isn't this darkness giving rise to the buddha nature?

Not necessarily pretty but either is natural human birth if you look at it from the perspective of blood and guts.
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by Caoimhghín »

tkp67 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:36 pmPerhaps this was part of the design.
Seems like a bad design, if such were the case. Either way, "the design" is undefined by you, so I'll take it to mean "God's plan," which I do not believe in.
tkp67 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:36 pmIf there is no one capable of making the correction what correction is there to be had?
If no one around is informed enough to correct a Tirthika while he twists Buddhism, does he twist it at all? I think that this is a poorly-thought-through nonsense suggestion.
tkp67 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:36 pmIf there is someone capable of making the correction isn't this darkness giving rise to the buddha nature?
I'm very sorry, but I think this is more semantically-challenged nonsense. The "darkness giving rise to the buddha nature" is nonsense here from you as far as I'm concerned.

I think it's best if we don't have a long dialogue concerning this. I don't think you are ready for or prepared to participate in such a dialogue.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:28 pm And I am describing how shakubuku is incompetently performed by some Nichiren Buddhists. I think the incompetent performance of shakubuku is a significant issue here in this subforum that anyone with even some basic instruction in the Dharma can see, when people feel like they ought to be correcting others when they themselves do not understand what they are talking and merely "feel like" they understand what they are talking about.
I get what you just said here.
The point is and this sounds really fanatical...i do not adhere to it at all ..

The point is the ends justify the means.sometimes...

That being said i had to phone Mrs. Izumi , the head of Canada, we were friends and close at one time,...at home to get this chapter chief out of my apartment.

He was doing exactly what you are on about...only you have no idea...like way over the top....

Once he was accompanied by this other person...i don;t want to slander him but wowza...and they wanted me to throw out all my non Nichiren shoshu books...any book on religion that wasn't of the Gakki approval...

all due to my practice which had lapsed for some time.....

These people feel they are doing the right thing...

so yeah this could be deemed what you are talking about...

but someone with very little knowledge and has experienced the benefits of this Dharma wants to point out that this is the best and all that....

and tries really hard to convince the person....forceful...is wrong but then again maybe that person needs that in front of them...there is a point though it becomes crazy...just crazyyy and i have seen it first hand...


i guess forceful is a word best enforced by someone who understand Shoju as well...


or at least some semblance of social politeness...



all that being said some people do end up taking up the practice after such persons do the crazy...


Why ...because their spiritual aspect is being pushed ..touched..


When I was in some very heavy teachings , way over my head in Rinpoche's Gompa, ...i would try to absorb the teaching through my heart sort of...not really my heart...but like some sort of osmosis thing..

so even the loon boon on that level of understanding does great good...but i don't recommend it...

lol...

i guess if you are like Sharihotsu and see everything from the books and don't really have a spiritual side of you developed yet...you would not be able to understand that level of shakkabukku..or learning...

but yeah any inter action with the Mystic Law of the Eternal Buddha has reward beyond what you can calculate...

but i hope it's not like the only thing people do...

lol...


you should think about the whole teachings are transferred not by the word at times but by the mind of The Buddha...


edited the word lapsed.
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by tkp67 »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:52 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:36 pmPerhaps this was part of the design.
Seems like a bad design, if such were the case. Either way, "the design" is undefined by you, so I'll take it to mean "God's plan," which I do not believe in.
No I mean Nichiren's design. As in a rudimentary way to get geographically disparate people's to recognize the source of the teachings as the same. This is one characteristic of the true aspect. Equanimity. This makes people question the source of authority. In Nichiren's case all roads led to the Lotus Sutra.

How God is equated here is beyond ordinary conceptions. Remember this teaching is close to one thousand years old and if it isn't examined through fresh eyes while keeping in mind the relative context of the past distortion occurs.

tkp67 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:36 pmIf there is no one capable of making the correction what correction is there to be had?
If no one around is informed enough to correct a Tirthika while he twists Buddhism, does he twist it at all? I think that this is a poorly-thought-through nonsense suggestion.
If all the minds in attendance manifest lower realms the teaching itself cannot change this immediately through mere contact. If the mind in attendance promoting the proper understanding is not manifesting the realm that accords with the teaching there is no teaching to be had regardless of verity.

Since these practices are all pointing to internal state that cannot be directly there is no magical vernacular to be had. While command of these teachings can be measured doctrinal knowledge it does not measure that minds capacity to know itself or the minds of others. As the sutra states it can be entered by faith alone.

tkp67 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 2:36 pm
If there is someone capable of making the correction isn't this darkness giving rise to the buddha nature?
I'm very sorry, but I think this is more semantically-challenged nonsense. The "darkness giving rise to the buddha nature" is nonsense here from you as far as I'm concerned.

I think it's best if we don't have a long dialogue concerning this. I don't think you are ready for or prepared to participate in such a dialogue.
Yes, darkness in one's life gives rise to the lotus which is recognition of one's own latent buddha nature.

I notice that people with a great command of language and education don't like the rough cut of people who may not have had the luxury for such things but rather sat outside the temple walls suffering unreasonably.

From what I understand that was the whole reason we have buddhism in the first place.

Food for thought.
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by tkp67 »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:37 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:22 pmreally ....is this necessary. your tone at times seems so full of yourself...you make a lousy teacher...
I'm just being honest, and I'm neither your teacher nor TPK's.
Nichiren taught that the world honored buddha was everyone's sovereign, teacher and parent. Then he encouraged us to realize we possess the same latent capacity. He also taught our minds are constantly manifesting reality according to our desires whether one recognizes it or not. He also taught time spent avoiding this realization is not time well spent.

It may not be readily apparent unless you practice it without doubt.

So in essence we are giving birth to the world around us constantly according to whatever lens we view the world so if it isn't compatible with the LS it isn't the true aspect.

Simply but not necessarily easy.
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

tkp67 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:59 pm I notice that people with a great command of language and education don't like the rough cut of people who may not have had the luxury for such things but rather sat outside the temple walls suffering unreasonably.
What does this mean?
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

Post by tkp67 »

jake wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 4:07 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 3:59 pm I notice that people with a great command of language and education don't like the rough cut of people who may not have had the luxury for such things but rather sat outside the temple walls suffering unreasonably.
What does this mean?
People take their life positions for granted instead of understanding they are simply reflective of cause, capacity and condition. If there is no self then what is a self made man?

Words do not create discord, the human mind does.

Words do not create attachment, the human mind does.

Words do not create delusion, the human mind does.

The buddha only displayed a linguistic command over the complexity of human understanding when it was to the beneficial to others.
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Re: Correcting wrong thought

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Thread locked to cool off the argument. Please ask a mod to unlock if there is something on-topic to add.
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