Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:20 am i just cannot believe Nichiren would teach that the Buddha nature is absent till you hear the ODaimoku.
Yes. It doesn't make sense. That's why it seems to refer only to one aspect of the Buddhanature - the ability to perceive it, which is initiated when you hear the teaching for the first time. In that same text Nichiren explains the Gohonzon. Its the moment of transmission of the Daimoku. When one sits before the mandala and invokes the Daimoku, one is at the ceremony in the air receiving the teaching.

It also doesn't make sense because he and his followers are supposed to be Bodhisattvas of the Earth who already received the teaching in the remote past.

Arguably there is some transcendence of time.

As Malcolm suggested a while ago, and as Vasubandhu commented, the ceremony in the air may be Shakyamuni in Samboghakaya form teaching in Akanistha.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:54 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:20 am i just cannot believe Nichiren would teach that the Buddha nature is absent till you hear the ODaimoku.
Yes. It doesn't make sense. That's why it seems to refer only to one aspect of the Buddhanature - the ability to perceive it, which is initiated when you hear the teaching for the first time.
It’s the difference between what is termed natural gotra and activated gotra. All sentient beings have the former, only those who have taken the bodhisattva vow have the latter. I suspect this Yogacara idea is behind the distinction being made here, notion one does not have Buddhanature until you hear the teachings. I suspect much is being lost in translation, and as far as I know there is very little serious work on Nichiren Buddhism by academic scholars outside of Japan.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:58 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:54 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:20 am i just cannot believe Nichiren would teach that the Buddha nature is absent till you hear the ODaimoku.
Yes. It doesn't make sense. That's why it seems to refer only to one aspect of the Buddhanature - the ability to perceive it, which is initiated when you hear the teaching for the first time.
It’s the difference between what is termed natural gotra and activated gotra. All sentient beings have the former, only those who have taken the bodhisattva vow have the latter. I suspect this Yogacara idea is behind the distinction being made here, notion one does not have Buddhanature until you hear the teachings. I suspect much is being lost in translation, and as far as I know there is very little serious work on Nichiren Buddhism by academic scholars outside of Japan.
That is interesting. I suspect the Yogacara influence comes in through Tiantai/Tendai, and so the direct connection may be obscured. Where can one find explanations on the natural and activated gotra?

And your observation about Nichiren Buddhism scholarship sounds right. I don't think anyone in the West has dug much deeper than to look at the subject from a historical perspective. The investigations of the teachings themselves have only been scratching the surface. I suspect there is a lot more vajrayana integrated into his teachings. The problem in the West is the investigation is not that deep. In Japan, the scholars tend to be sectarians who take Nichiren's criticisms of Shingon at face value and so can't bring themselves to consider that Vajrayana is at play. I brought up Lucia Dolce's study suggesting the influence of Vajrayana to some Japanese Nichiren scholars and they reacted very negatively. I was actually surprised at their response.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:13 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:58 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 12:54 pm

Yes. It doesn't make sense. That's why it seems to refer only to one aspect of the Buddhanature - the ability to perceive it, which is initiated when you hear the teaching for the first time.
It’s the difference between what is termed natural gotra and activated gotra. All sentient beings have the former, only those who have taken the bodhisattva vow have the latter. I suspect this Yogacara idea is behind the distinction being made here, notion one does not have Buddhanature until you hear the teachings. I suspect much is being lost in translation, and as far as I know there is very little serious work on Nichiren Buddhism by academic scholars outside of Japan.
That is interesting. I suspect the Yogacara influence comes in through Tiantai/Tendai, and so the direct connection may be obscured. Where can one find explanations on the natural and activated gotra?

And your observation about Nichiren Buddhism scholarship sounds right. I don't think anyone in the West has dug much deeper than to look at the subject from a historical perspective. The investigations of the teachings themselves have only been scratching the surface. I suspect there is a lot more vajrayana integrated into his teachings. The problem in the West is the investigation is not that deep. In Japan, the scholars tend to be sectarians who take Nichiren's criticisms of Shingon at face value and so can't bring themselves to consider that Vajrayana is at play. I brought up Lucia Dolce's study suggesting the influence of Vajrayana to some Japanese Nichiren scholars and they reacted very negatively. I was actually surprised at their response.
The Mahayanasutralamkara.

By the 12th century, Esoteric Buddhism is baked into all schools in Japan, IMO.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Did Nichiren Shonin create an entirely different Buddhism for our time

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:18 pm The Mahayanasutralamkara.

By the 12th century, Esoteric Buddhism is baked into all schools in Japan, IMO.
I agree. There are some scholars who argue that Japanese culture, even to this day, is permeated by Esoteric ideas. I think they tend to come from Tendai or Shingon backgrounds. To everyone who has a sectarian agenda to keep Vajrayana out, this is of course not acceptable.

My understanding is that younger scholars are not as limited. Its changing. But many of those scholars have a hard time getting positions.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by narhwal90 »

Even the basic historical research available in english suggests and extensive basis vajrayana/tantric doctine and practice in Nichiren's practice, its a most interesting topic. I beg pardon for pulling these posts out into a new thread, I was hoping to continue the conversation with some clarity.

Thanks.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by Queequeg »

As far as I know, Lucia Dolce makes the connection most directly, but I think she has moved on to other subjects these days. Jackie Stone also does a bit of work in this area, but tends to stay on the Exoteric side of Tendai and Nichiren. Stone is also retired.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Minobu
Posts: 4228
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 6:57 pm

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by Minobu »

The entire concept of chanting with Gohonzon is vajrayana..it's a mandala of the Buddha.

In Tantra i took it was all visual ..Buddhas adorned with silks and holding a noose or a sword etc..

Nichiren used Characters, which are more defined..

Gakki dumbed it down into Jungian Archetypes. Maybe dumb down isn't fair..more of a way to explain to newbies..

But you immerse in the Gohonzon and try to meld with it...oneness of person and object stuff.

In tibetan tantra when you visualize yourself a Buddha , a certain aspect of Buddha , you are developing what is there already in you ...it is a method to bring it further to the fore ...it's basic medicine..

Same with Gohonzon...
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by tkp67 »

Doesn't the function of the mind/senses/gohonozon classify as tantric according to english definitions?
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by narhwal90 »

There appears to be variation in the acknowlegement of esoteric influence among Nichiren schools at least- Igarashi (2012) documents some of the variety of ritual prayer developed and offered by N.Shu. I get the impression these methods and concepts were adopted as current mikkyo technology, if you will, by the early Nichiren disciples. Nichiren employed such a device himself when visiting his dying mother.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by Queequeg »

My personal opinion, and this is all it is, I think Nichiren had a much deeper interest in Shingon than he admits. Other than Kukai's judgment that in terms of profundity of teaching the Lotus ranks third (Avatamsaka second), he doesn't have much criticism to offer. Some other observations - the beads used by Nichiren practitioners have a closer similarity to the Shingon beads than to the Tendai beads. I have no idea about the significance of that. Just a passing observation I've made.

Other than the obvious references to the Ryokai Madara (the two mandalas used in Shingon and Tendai Esoteric practice) on the Gohonzon, I don't know enough about Shingon and Tendai Esoteric practice to make further comments. I am sure a Tendai acarya trained in Mikkyo would readily see other connections.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by Queequeg »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:33 pm There appears to be variation in the acknowlegement of esoteric influence among Nichiren schools at least- Igarashi (2012) documents some of the variety of ritual prayer developed and offered by N.Shu. I get the impression these methods and concepts were adopted as current mikkyo technology, if you will, by the early Nichiren disciples. Nichiren employed such a device himself when visiting his dying mother.
Nichiren and his immediate disciples were trained in Tendai. They probably took a lot of mikkyo for granted. And many later followers continued to study at Mt. Hiei.

The idea that there was Nichiren sect wholly distinct from Tendai seems like a modern sectarian reading of history.

Do you have a citation for that Igarashi article?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by narhwal90 »

Wellesley College
Wellesley College Digital Scholarship and Archive
Honors Thesis Collection
2012

The Development of Kaji Kito in Nichiren Shu Buddhism
Kyomi J. Igarashi

http://repository.wellesley.edu/thesiscollection

been ages since I came across it, thankfully I downloaded a copy.
GDPR_Anonymized001
Posts: 1678
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:13 pm

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

Queequeg wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:23 pm As far as I know, Lucia Dolce makes the connection most directly, but I think she has moved on to other subjects these days. Jackie Stone also does a bit of work in this area, but tends to stay on the Exoteric side of Tendai and Nichiren. Stone is also retired.
Does the distinction exist for Stone et al that there is a pretty fundamental difference between having what might be considered an esoteric idea/concept or to have been influenced by esoteric thinking and the actual lineage of esoteric practice (e.g. the importance of lineage/kanjo/abhiseka)?
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by narhwal90 »

The traditional N.Shu Aragyo ascetic practice sounds seems to incoportate esoteric concepts to some extent, though apparently not widely documented outside of N.Shu.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:39 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:33 pm There appears to be variation in the acknowlegement of esoteric influence among Nichiren schools at least- Igarashi (2012) documents some of the variety of ritual prayer developed and offered by N.Shu. I get the impression these methods and concepts were adopted as current mikkyo technology, if you will, by the early Nichiren disciples. Nichiren employed such a device himself when visiting his dying mother.
Nichiren and his immediate disciples were trained in Tendai. They probably took a lot of mikkyo for granted. And many later followers continued to study at Mt. Hiei.
As I understand things, it took quite some time for independent Nichiren institutions to manifest.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by Queequeg »

jake wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:43 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:23 pm As far as I know, Lucia Dolce makes the connection most directly, but I think she has moved on to other subjects these days. Jackie Stone also does a bit of work in this area, but tends to stay on the Exoteric side of Tendai and Nichiren. Stone is also retired.
Does the distinction exist for Stone et al that there is a pretty fundamental difference between having what might be considered an esoteric idea/concept or to have been influenced by esoteric thinking and the actual lineage of esoteric practice (e.g. the importance of lineage/kanjo/abhiseka)?
I'm sure it must.

But with Nichiren, its not clear what his Mikkyo training and initiations were, if any.

Nichiren wsa trained in a Tendai temple. He recounts doing Kokuzo practice when he was a boy. There are two documents he wrote describing encounters with Fudo and Aizen wherein he received the Taizokai and Kongokai transmissions. The sun, moon and morning star were his protectors. It seems he did receive Abhiseka, but other than those two documents, there is no evidence of this. He makes no references in his other writings, except he does refer to secret teachings he wanted to discuss with disciples. Up until the age of 30 or so, no one really knows what he was doing except that he spent time at several major monasteries in Kanto before going to Kansai where he supposedly studied at Hiei and Koya.

But, that said, I think a big part of his message was to rebel against the exclusivity of Esoteric Buddhism in those days. I think this was the same for Honen and Shinran. He was looking to open the path for all people, not just those who had the capacity and opportunity to become monks.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14462
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by Queequeg »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:49 pm The traditional N.Shu Aragyo ascetic practice sounds seems to incoportate esoteric concepts to some extent, though apparently not widely documented outside of N.Shu.
I believe that Aragyo is a relatively recent development. Don't quote me on that. If it is a recent development, it might have developed out of practices that had been carried out all along and merely formalized. IIRC, Aragyo is associated with Toki Jonin's temple. I forget the name.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
narhwal90
Global Moderator
Posts: 3509
Joined: Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:10 am
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by narhwal90 »

Queequeg wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:42 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:49 pm The traditional N.Shu Aragyo ascetic practice sounds seems to incoportate esoteric concepts to some extent, though apparently not widely documented outside of N.Shu.
I believe that Aragyo is a relatively recent development. Don't quote me on that. If it is a recent development, it might have developed out of practices that had been carried out all along and merely formalized. IIRC, Aragyo is associated with Toki Jonin's temple. I forget the name.
Yeah, Igarashi references the practices originating from Nichiei, the 10 th successor of the Shakuzenbo temple - so quite a while after Nichiren.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Vajrayana as an aspect of Nichiren practice

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:39 pm
But, that said, I think a big part of his message was to rebel against the exclusivity of Esoteric Buddhism in those days. I think this was the same for Honen and Shinran. He was looking to open the path for all people, not just those who had the capacity and opportunity to become monks.

Well, Vajrayāna tends to create brahmins where there are none, for example Tibetan "ngakpas," especially when it comes to the earlier tantras, like those that spread to China and thence to Japan.

One of the attractive features of Indian Vajrayāna is that it took rituals like homavidhi, burnt offerings, away from brahmins and recontextualized them for Buddhists. For example, Anandagarbha has a whole argument detailing why Buddhist homavidhi is superior to Brahmin homavidhi.

However, Japan, unlike Tibet, was a highly organized society where central authorities were much more present in daily life. With Tibet, you had nomads, bandits, and people pretty much doing as they pleased in areas outside of immediate urban centers and great monastic institutions.

In this sort of Japanese environment, it is easy to see how Buddhism became stratified, and why, in the 13th century, populist forms of Buddhism arose. Actually, my read of Dogen, based on recent reading, was that he was engaged in an idiosyncratic pushback against the populism that exemplified Pure Land and Nichiren, as well as a reform movement aimed at introducing 13th century, Chinese style monastic Chan Buddhism into Japan.

In Tibet, exactly the opposite was happening—there was major institutional pushback against Buddhist populism, especially against the treasure tradition. Also, Mongols were invading... (Dogen also took credit for repelling the Mongols, BTW.)
Post Reply

Return to “Nichiren”