Why did Nichiren Shonin leave TenDai

[Minobu]

Politics and power are not separate from salvation of all sentient beings. Filtering one or the other does not reflect reality.

to put emphasis on power and politics would require someone to produce proof Nichiren was motivated by these things and not salvation. His writings are clear on the salvation aspect.

Putting academic social political perspectives on buddhist religious tradition is unreasonable.

So you don't think His Exile to Sado, the attempt to behead Him and all the rest wasn't political?

for me it is proof politics was the main reason for those events...not just His view on The Lotus Sutra ...

[Minobu]

Common now people we are on a boat that barely makes it not even a ship. Just get into that nature and finish the job. Stop having fun .

Said in my best Royal voice...yes tis all very common...


i think spell check by the way did a lil mess up with come on ...lol...

i think minobu got spelled checked into minibus and i thought someone once was taking the piss outta me..

ok no more fun stuff..



it's just the silence on my question is killing me ...

[tkp67]

Politics and power are not separate from salvation of all sentient beings. Filtering one or the other does not reflect reality.

to put emphasis on power and politics would require someone to produce proof Nichiren was motivated by these things and not salvation. His writings are clear on the salvation aspect.

Putting academic social political perspectives on buddhist religious tradition is unreasonable.

So you don't think His Exile to Sado, the attempt to behead Him and all the rest wasn't political?

for me it is proof politics was the main reason for those events...not just His view on The Lotus Sutra ...

I am certain that it was his desire to pay back his debt to the people of Japan and the buddha of the ten directions and three times not some personal desire for political power and recognition.

800 years or so after his passing I think the political motivations being held up as primary misses the point entirely. At best.

[narhwal90]

tkp, you really need to read some goshos.

[Minobu]

Politics and power are not separate from salvation of all sentient beings. Filtering one or the other does not reflect reality.

to put emphasis on power and politics would require someone to produce proof Nichiren was motivated by these things and not salvation. His writings are clear on the salvation aspect.

Putting academic social political perspectives on buddhist religious tradition is unreasonable.

So you don't think His Exile to Sado, the attempt to behead Him and all the rest wasn't political?

for me it is proof politics was the main reason for those events...not just His view on The Lotus Sutra ...

I am certain that it was his desire to pay back his debt to the people of Japan and the buddha of the ten directions and three times not some personal desire for political power and recognition.

800 years or so after his passing I think the political motivations being held up as primary misses the point entirely. At best.

maybe it is me and my inability to articulate and my grammar TKP67...but Nothing I said was meant to say Nichiren was political...

I was expressing His battle with politicians and Buddhist sects that became political...and that was only part of His reasons...

i never saw Him as some political activist....just saw the corruption and the misappropriation of the Teachings for purposes other than saving sentients..

[tkp67]

tkp, you really need to read some goshos- that is entirely incorrect.

I have and I posted the references.

The sticking point is his internal motivation. Is it more political of more buddhist? I claim it is buddhist and his wisdom was such he recognized that there was no separation between head of state and the lowest member of society. No different than Shakyamuni himself.

It also fulfills both their claims that this was the intent of the sutra in the first place.

I can put this together from the writings and the lotus. I don't believe source needs to be specific to one writer or translation either.

[tkp67]

So you don't think His Exile to Sado, the attempt to behead Him and all the rest wasn't political?

for me it is proof politics was the main reason for those events...not just His view on The Lotus Sutra ...

I am certain that it was his desire to pay back his debt to the people of Japan and the buddha of the ten directions and three times not some personal desire for political power and recognition.

800 years or so after his passing I think the political motivations being held up as primary misses the point entirely. At best.

maybe it is me and my inability to articulate and my grammar TKP67...but Nothing I said was meant to say Nichiren was political...

I was expressing His battle with politicians and Buddhist sects that became political...and that was only part of His reasons...

i never saw Him as some political activist....just saw the corruption and the misappropriation of the Teachings for purposes other than saving sentients..

It wasn't addressed to your understanding but to those who claim Nichiren's motivation was driven by political desires. It has become the basis for invalidating this tradition as worthy.

[Minobu]

I am certain that it was his desire to pay back his debt to the people of Japan and the buddha of the ten directions and three times not some personal desire for political power and recognition.

800 years or so after his passing I think the political motivations being held up as primary misses the point entirely. At best.

maybe it is me and my inability to articulate and my grammar TKP67...but Nothing I said was meant to say Nichiren was political...

I was expressing His battle with politicians and Buddhist sects that became political...and that was only part of His reasons...

i never saw Him as some political activist....just saw the corruption and the misappropriation of the Teachings for purposes other than saving sentients..

It wasn't addressed to your understanding but to those who claim Nichiren's motivation was driven by political desires. It has become the basis for invalidating this tradition as worthy.

No one said that in this thread...you are reading into something that is not there especially when you say

who claim Nichiren's motivation was driven by political desires

show me where you have a basis for this claim in this thread..

i suck at grammar but i dio not put words into people's mouths in order to proclaim some agenda..
it drives me bonkers when people do that and then when asked to show the post ...they go silent or just insult me.


now please as per your claim..fetch it please...

[tkp67]

Minobu I suggest you track down a copy of Stone's Medeival Kamakura Buddhsim text and read it; you will find Pure Land was not the reason he left Tendai.

anyway so Narhwal why did He leave the whole chant Nam Amida Butsu out entirely of His Dharma. And what else did He not go along with..

I will leave the detailed study up to you to correct your own claim, however the major reasons Nichiren left related to his view that the institution was oriented around politics and power, not addressing the needs of the common people. As a commoner himself he did not have the political/financial influence to achieve much from inside the institution so whatever the merits of his single practice idea were they would not be accepted; in fact him expounding his own practice in front of others led to some tense moments and his subsequent departure from Tendai.

as requested Minobu

[tkp67]

maybe it is me and my inability to articulate and my grammar TKP67...but Nothing I said was meant to say Nichiren was political...

I was expressing His battle with politicians and Buddhist sects that became political...and that was only part of His reasons...

i never saw Him as some political activist....just saw the corruption and the misappropriation of the Teachings for purposes other than saving sentients..

It wasn't addressed to your understanding but to those who claim Nichiren's motivation was driven by political desires. It has become the basis for invalidating this tradition as worthy.

No one said that in this thread...you are reading into something that is not there especially when you say

who claim Nichiren's motivation was driven by political desires

show me where you have a basis for this claim in this thread..

i suck at grammar but i dio not put words into people's mouths in order to proclaim some agenda..
it drives me bonkers when people do that and then when asked to show the post ...they go silent or just insult me.


now please as per your claim..fetch it please...

His motivation was to save all people without any discrimination between any faction (politician, priest or peasant). His expositions were to get all people of Japan to recognize one source of teachings.

[tkp67]

A more important question would be how does one measure what his true intention? By the words in the Gosho? Academic discourse? Contemplated meanings? End to end cause and effect over the term? His behavior as a human being?

And ultimately how is meaning manifested in this tradition today accordingly.

[narhwal90]

Again, Stone has a concise summary of Nichiren's early relationship with Pure Land, and within Tendai- along with his actions and events which lead to his 1st and 2nd exile, his responses and subsequent events. I just reviewed that section of her book, from page 242; about 20 pages addressing the major events in that timeframe, along with the development of his single-practice doctrine. That is the summary- the Nichren section of the text is much larger.

There is no simple, correct and complete answer to such questions.

[tkp67]

Again, Stone has a very concise summary of Nichiren's early relationship with Pure Land, and within Tendai- along with his actions and events which lead to his 1st and 2nd exile, his responses and subsequent events. I just reviewed that section of her book, from page 242; about 20 pages addressing the major events in that timeframe, along with the development of his single-practice doctrine. That is the summary- the Nichren section of the text is much larger.

There is no simple, correct and complete answer to such questions.

Well my dear friend I think that is the point here.

The answer possesses attributes beyond that identifiable by the ordinary mind.

I can't give you a complete discourse on them but it stands to reason this is because he displayed properties of a high level sage if not a high level bodhisattva or whatever designation a particular reader finds acceptable for comparison.

Of primary importance however is that the intent of these practices offer benefit and buddhism based on political construction/deconstruction doesn't seem a suitable choice in 2021. However this is my opinion. Perhaps if politics draws someone to the dharma it is better than them not being drawn to the dharma. The later part I am quite ambivalent to because I don't have political motivations one way or another. Very honestly if I can't find an answer inside myself I can't report understanding it but I won't deny that it might exist and reasonably so.

[narhwal90]

Topic temporarily locked for review.