Original enlightenment , Honbutsu, Primordial Buddha

[Minobu]

They all seem to be about the same concept or entity?

Honbutsu is a Ten Dai thing, First introduced by them apparently. how much did Nichiren adopt into his teachings?

There is no definitive text on the Primordial buddha that is agreed upon as far as i am aware.
and yet it is discussed and some believe it to be true.

Is Original Enlightenment a concept of it's own or is it another way of describing Honbustu ?

Or is it a modern term , again from Honbutsu?

Is there a way of discussing this that does not end up in an Eternal Buddha sectarian discussion ?

Was Honbutsu devised in order to proclaim an Eternal Buddha?

[Queequeg]

They all seem to be about the same concept or entity?

Honbutsu is a Ten Dai thing, First introduced by them apparently. how much did Nichiren adopt into his teachings?

There is no definitive text on the Primordial buddha that is agreed upon as far as i am aware.
and yet it is discussed and some believe it to be true.

Is Original Enlightenment a concept of it's own or is it another way of describing Honbustu ?

Or is it a modern term , again from Honbutsu?

Is there a way of discussing this that does not end up in an Eternal Buddha sectarian discussion ?

Was Honbutsu devised in order to proclaim an Eternal Buddha?

Honbutsu (本佛) refers to Shakyamuni Buddha as he is revealed in the Original Gate teaching (honmon 本門).

Original Enlightenment (hongaku 本覚) is the teaching that we embody enlightenment as-is. The caveat is that ordinary sentient beings are not aware of this original state and mistake it as something else, which leads to suffering, samsara, etc. The distinguishing characteristic of a buddha is that they see things as they really are, while sentient beings do not.

The fuller teaching on this is summed up in ichinen sanzen. For Zhiyi, the practice of the ichinen sanzen teaching is Sudden and Perfect Contemplation taught in Mohezhikuan/Makashikan. Nichiren claimed to distinguish his teaching be pointing out that for Zhiyi, ichinen sanzen is based on the Expedient Means Chapter while his is based on the Life Span chapter. Where Zhiyi taught a contemplation, Nichiren taught that the practice is chanting the daimoku.

In Hongaku, samsara and nirvana are said to be the same. Some people purportedly dumbed this down into equating nirvana into some aspect of samsara.

[FiveSkandhas]

Oh boy a chance to plug one of my all time favorite works: Original Enlightenment and the Transformation of Medieval Japanese Buddhism by Prof. Jacqueline Stone of Princeton.

All the answers are in this masterful tome, including an interesting chapter on "Tendai-Hokke Interactions." Original Enlightenment thought passed freely back and forth through Tendai and Nichiren lineages, which were much more friendly than generally thought and carried on a long tradition of mutual interaction and influence, especially in the Kanto region away from elite centers like Enrakuji.

[illarraza]

They all seem to be about the same concept or entity?

Honbutsu is a Ten Dai thing, First introduced by them apparently. how much did Nichiren adopt into his teachings?

There is no definitive text on the Primordial buddha that is agreed upon as far as i am aware.
and yet it is discussed and some believe it to be true.

Is Original Enlightenment a concept of it's own or is it another way of describing Honbustu ?

Or is it a modern term , again from Honbutsu?

Is there a way of discussing this that does not end up in an Eternal Buddha sectarian discussion ?

Was Honbutsu devised in order to proclaim an Eternal Buddha?

You are not alone David. Someone wrote:

"The Eternal Shakyamuni is very clearly an extremely interpretive translation of the term honbutsu. I already know that it does not appear in the Lotus Sutra. I will try to find where it appears in the Gosho and we can discuss it further.."

First, from the writings of Nichiren Daishonin:

“Thus it was revealed that Shakyamuni had long been the Buddha since the eternal past and it became clear that various Buddhas in other worlds were all manifestations of Shakyamuni Buddha. Now, however, as Shakyamuni was proved to be the Eternal Buddha, those Buddhas in the Flower Garland Sutra, or Buddhas in the Hodo, Hannya, or Great Sun Buddha sutras all became subordinates of Shakyamuni Buddha.” (Kaimoku Sho, p. 174, translated by Kyotsu Hori, 1987)

and

“Since Shakyamuni Buddha is eternal and all other Buddhas in the universe are His manifestations...” (Kaimoku Sho, translated by Kyotsu Hori, p.176).

and

“Since Sakyamuni Buddha is eternal and all other Buddhas in the universe are His manifestations, then those great bodhisattvas converted by manifested Buddhas are also disciples of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha. If the “Life Span of the Buddha” chapter had not been expounded, it would be like the sky without the sun and moon, a country without a king, mountains and rivers without gems, or a man without a soul.” (Noppa, pg. 176, Kaimoku Sho)

and

“Shakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will he be born in the future. He exists forever, throughout the past, present and future.” (P.100)

And from the Lotus Sutra Chapter 16, the Lifespan of the Tathagata verse section which we chant every day:

"But forever here preaching the law."

And:

"I forever remain in this [world]"

And:

"And then I tell all creatures
That I exist forever in this world"

Therefore, once expedients are abandoned:

"I [Shakyamuni] tell all creatures that I [Shakyamuni] exist forever in this world."

"By the power of tactful methods
Revealing [myself] extinct and not extinct"

"[If] in other regions there are beings
Reverent and with faith aspiring
Again I am in their midst"

"other regions" means everywhere, means past present and future and means eternal:

"I behold all living creatures
Sunk in the sea of suffering
Hence I do not reveal myself"

Beholding all living beings means omnipresent.

"Hence I [Shakyamuni] do not reveal myself" (although "I" am always present.)

"Till, when their hearts are longing,
I appear to preach the Law:"

"I therefore appear to all living creatures."

All living creatures include those who have existed since time without beginning, those who now exist, and those who will exist in the infinite future.

" always on the Divine Vulture Peak
And in every other dwelling place".

This is self explanatory.

"Tranquil is this realm of mine,
Ever filled with heavenly beings,"
Parks, and many palaces
With every kind of gem adorned,
Precious trees full of blossoms and fruit,
where all beings take their pleasure"

Again, "ever" is forever [eternal] and "all" is all throughout the Three Existences. This passage brings up a very important point: Not only the Buddha Shakyamuni of the Juryo Chapter is eterna but so is his land and the masses of beings.

''But all who perform virtuous deeds
And are gentle and upright
These all see that I exist."

Again, "all" is all. Those who existed, exist and will exist(from the standpoint of the Truth of Temporary Existence) who perform virtuous deeds and are gentle and upright, these beings see that Shakyamuni Buddha always exists. Does that mean that those who don't see the Buddha are not virtuous and upright?

"For the Buddha's words are true, not false.
Like the Physician who with clever device,
In order to cure his demented sons,
Though indeed alive, annonces his own death
Yet can not be charged with any falsehood,
I, too, being father of this world,
Who heals all misery and affliction,
For the sake of the perverted people,
Though truly alive, say extinct;

Who is the father of this Saha world who heals all misery and all affliction? There can not be two fathers. This would have been an opportune time for Shakyamuni to announce a Buddha more original than himself [as the father of the world] but, as we see, the Buddha Shakyamuni, consistent from beginning to end, again announces, "I".

"I, ever knowing all beings"

Again, the words "I", "ever" and "all".

"Expound their every Law"

Buddha Shakyamuni of the Juryo Chapter, as he, Nichiren, and we state, teaches every Law.

"Ever making this my thought:
How shall I cause all the living
To enter the Way supreme
and speedily accomplish Buddhahood?"

By Nichiren's own admission, he slandered the Lotus Sutra in prior existences and that's why he had to undergo severe pesecutions for the sake of the Lotus Sutra in this lifetime. That is why we, the Bodhisattvas of the Earth also experience hardships and obstacles in this very life and, as Nichiren, have the greatest breakthroughs.

[narhwal90]

Please note the forum policy on quoting, available here https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 68#p397068

[Queequeg]

They all seem to be about the same concept or entity?

Honbutsu is a Ten Dai thing, First introduced by them apparently. how much did Nichiren adopt into his teachings?

There is no definitive text on the Primordial buddha that is agreed upon as far as i am aware.
and yet it is discussed and some believe it to be true.

Is Original Enlightenment a concept of it's own or is it another way of describing Honbustu ?

Or is it a modern term , again from Honbutsu?

Is there a way of discussing this that does not end up in an Eternal Buddha sectarian discussion ?

Was Honbutsu devised in order to proclaim an Eternal Buddha?

You are not alone David. Someone wrote:

"The Eternal Shakyamuni is very clearly an extremely interpretive translation of the term honbutsu. I already know that it does not appear in the Lotus Sutra. I will try to find where it appears in the Gosho and we can discuss it further.."

First, from the writings of Nichiren Daishonin:

“Thus it was revealed that Shakyamuni had long been the Buddha since the eternal past and it became clear that various Buddhas in other worlds were all manifestations of Shakyamuni Buddha. Now, however, as Shakyamuni was proved to be the Eternal Buddha, those Buddhas in the Flower Garland Sutra, or Buddhas in the Hodo, Hannya, or Great Sun Buddha sutras all became subordinates of Shakyamuni Buddha.” (Kaimoku Sho, p. 174, translated by Kyotsu Hori, 1987)

and

“Since Shakyamuni Buddha is eternal and all other Buddhas in the universe are His manifestations...” (Kaimoku Sho, translated by Kyotsu Hori, p.176).

and

“Since Sakyamuni Buddha is eternal and all other Buddhas in the universe are His manifestations, then those great bodhisattvas converted by manifested Buddhas are also disciples of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha. If the “Life Span of the Buddha” chapter had not been expounded, it would be like the sky without the sun and moon, a country without a king, mountains and rivers without gems, or a man without a soul.” (Noppa, pg. 176, Kaimoku Sho)

and

“Shakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will he be born in the future. He exists forever, throughout the past, present and future.” (P.100)

And from the Lotus Sutra Chapter 16, the Lifespan of the Tathagata verse section which we chant every day:

"But forever here preaching the law."

And:

"I forever remain in this [world]"

And:

"And then I tell all creatures
That I exist forever in this world"

Therefore, once expedients are abandoned:

"I [Shakyamuni] tell all creatures that I [Shakyamuni] exist forever in this world."

"By the power of tactful methods
Revealing [myself] extinct and not extinct"

"[If] in other regions there are beings
Reverent and with faith aspiring
Again I am in their midst"

"other regions" means everywhere, means past present and future and means eternal:

"I behold all living creatures
Sunk in the sea of suffering
Hence I do not reveal myself"

Beholding all living beings means omnipresent.

"Hence I [Shakyamuni] do not reveal myself" (although "I" am always present.)

"Till, when their hearts are longing,
I appear to preach the Law:"

"I therefore appear to all living creatures."

All living creatures include those who have existed since time without beginning, those who now exist, and those who will exist in the infinite future.

" always on the Divine Vulture Peak
And in every other dwelling place".

This is self explanatory.

"Tranquil is this realm of mine,
Ever filled with heavenly beings,"
Parks, and many palaces
With every kind of gem adorned,
Precious trees full of blossoms and fruit,
where all beings take their pleasure"

Again, "ever" is forever [eternal] and "all" is all throughout the Three Existences. This passage brings up a very important point: Not only the Buddha Shakyamuni of the Juryo Chapter is eterna but so is his land and the masses of beings.

''But all who perform virtuous deeds
And are gentle and upright
These all see that I exist."

Again, "all" is all. Those who existed, exist and will exist(from the standpoint of the Truth of Temporary Existence) who perform virtuous deeds and are gentle and upright, these beings see that Shakyamuni Buddha always exists. Does that mean that those who don't see the Buddha are not virtuous and upright?

"For the Buddha's words are true, not false.
Like the Physician who with clever device,
In order to cure his demented sons,
Though indeed alive, annonces his own death
Yet can not be charged with any falsehood,
I, too, being father of this world,
Who heals all misery and affliction,
For the sake of the perverted people,
Though truly alive, say extinct;

Who is the father of this Saha world who heals all misery and all affliction? There can not be two fathers. This would have been an opportune time for Shakyamuni to announce a Buddha more original than himself [as the father of the world] but, as we see, the Buddha Shakyamuni, consistent from beginning to end, again announces, "I".

"I, ever knowing all beings"

Again, the words "I", "ever" and "all".

"Expound their every Law"

Buddha Shakyamuni of the Juryo Chapter, as he, Nichiren, and we state, teaches every Law.

"Ever making this my thought:
How shall I cause all the living
To enter the Way supreme
and speedily accomplish Buddhahood?"

By Nichiren's own admission, he slandered the Lotus Sutra in prior existences and that's why he had to undergo severe pesecutions for the sake of the Lotus Sutra in this lifetime. That is why we, the Bodhisattvas of the Earth also experience hardships and obstacles in this very life and, as Nichiren, have the greatest breakthroughs.

If you looked at the sources that Nichiren relied on, you wouldn't have such a hard time trying to parse it out. These teachings come from Zhiyi.

[Minobu]

You are not alone David.
First, from the writings of Nichiren Daishonin:

“Thus it was revealed that Shakyamuni had long been the Buddha since the eternal past and it became clear that various Buddhas in other worlds were all manifestations of Shakyamuni Buddha. Now, however, as Shakyamuni was proved to be the Eternal Buddha, those Buddhas in the Flower Garland Sutra, or Buddhas in the Hodo, Hannya, or Great Sun Buddha sutras all became subordinates of Shakyamuni Buddha.” (Kaimoku Sho, p. 174, translated by Kyotsu Hori, 1987)

and

So I get the Lord Sakyamuni Eternal Buddha, thing now.... and i thank mark for that . Never read any gosho like that before.

Rough ride getting here dude.

you Da Man !

sorry for ragging on you in emails....

[illarraza]

You are not alone David.
First, from the writings of Nichiren Daishonin:

“Thus it was revealed that Shakyamuni had long been the Buddha since the eternal past and it became clear that various Buddhas in other worlds were all manifestations of Shakyamuni Buddha. Now, however, as Shakyamuni was proved to be the Eternal Buddha, those Buddhas in the Flower Garland Sutra, or Buddhas in the Hodo, Hannya, or Great Sun Buddha sutras all became subordinates of Shakyamuni Buddha.” (Kaimoku Sho, p. 174, translated by Kyotsu Hori, 1987)

and

So I get the Lord Sakyamuni Eternal Buddha, thing now.... and i thank mark for that . Never read any gosho like that before.

Rough ride getting here dude.

you Da Man !

sorry for ragging on you in emails....

Thanks, you made my day. Many in secular Nichiren equate Buddha nature or Buddha wisdom (Reward Body Buddha) with the Eternal Buddha or they assert that Myoho renge kyo (Dharma Body Buddha) is the Eternal Buddha. However, The Lotus Sutra and Nichiren teach that the Eternal Buddha is a Three Bodied Tathagata. This is the rationale for us attaining Buddhahood in this very body. How fortunate we are!

[Minobu]

I never really used to read gosho.
recently i have been reading a few .

So in the opening of the eyes Nichiren states many times about Lord Sakyamuni Buddha Attaining Enlightenment in the distant past....a really long time ago..and yet it is finite ..proved finite when Lord Sakyamuni and nichiren talk about him Attaining enlightenment and then other Buddhist texts describing Buddhas such as Lord Sakyamuni in the further past...
then He says Dharmakaya is eternal.

In other Gosho He talks of this entity Nam Myoho RenGe Kyo.

then He explains how This whole thing is only shared by Buddhas.

Then He inscribes gohonzon with NAMuMyoHoRenGeKyo down the centre flanked by two Buddhas

the thing is nagging at me is this...

In the lotus sutra Lord Sakyamuni calls forth all His other emanations.

but Taho Buddha is a Whole Buddha .

This could mean He is something impossible.

The three Kayas in One Place.

The Nirmanaya Kaya never leaves the pure Land of A Buddha, And the Sambhogakaya Body is The historical Body that wandered around and taught people on Earth.

I don't know...but something is telling me That this could be the Eternal Buddha although there is this other problem when Taho buddha is confused about Lord Sakyamuni's life span.

How does that part of the story fit into place...

There is this Buddha that shows up Whole ..no mention of other emanations with this One .....and He always shows up and witnesses when any Buddha is about to do the Lotus sutra thing...

a work in progress...

[Minobu]

So where do i get this Taho Buddha is confused at the age of Lord Sakyamuni and maybe He is older than Him..

is this written in the Lotus sutra...or am i just misunderstanding this particular point????

it's just the whole thing is confusing..

[illarraza]

I never really used to read gosho.
recently i have been reading a few .

So in the opening of the eyes Nichiren states many times about Lord Sakyamuni Buddha Attaining Enlightenment in the distant past....a really long time ago..and yet it is finite ..proved finite when Lord Sakyamuni and nichiren talk about him Attaining enlightenment and then other Buddhist texts describing Buddhas such as Lord Sakyamuni in the further past...
then He says Dharmakaya is eternal.

In other Gosho He talks of this entity Nam Myoho RenGe Kyo.

then He explains how This whole thing is only shared by Buddhas.

Then He inscribes gohonzon with NAMuMyoHoRenGeKyo down the centre flanked by two Buddhas

the thing is nagging at me is this...

In the lotus sutra Lord Sakyamuni calls forth all His other emanations.

but Taho Buddha is a Whole Buddha .

This could mean He is something impossible.

The three Kayas in One Place.

The Nirmanaya Kaya never leaves the pure Land of A Buddha, And the Sambhogakaya Body is The historical Body that wandered around and taught people on Earth.

I don't know...but something is telling me That this could be the Eternal Buddha although there is this other problem when Taho buddha is confused about Lord Sakyamuni's life span.

How does that part of the story fit into place...

There is this Buddha that shows up Whole ..no mention of other emanations with this One .....and He always shows up and witnesses when any Buddha is about to do the Lotus sutra thing...

a work in progress...

Please also read thew Kyotsu Hori translation. Nichiren is very specifiic of an eternal lifespan and we too. In the case of the Buddha of the 16th Chapter, his Supreme and Perfect Enlightenment, likewise is eternal. Our Enlightenment, for the most part, has been interrrupted. In one sense, strong faith in Namu myoho renge kyo is in itself Enlightenment.

M

[Minobu]

I'm talking about Taho buddha being a whole Buddha and what it implies.

recently Malcolm quoted from sutra and because it talks of one of the reasons for ailments being Karma...Malcolm decided it meant not all disease is karmic based...which isn't the point at all..point being there are different reasons for different ailments....
one of which is due to karma...

But all illness that causes suffering is due to karma...and yes certain ailments are cause strictly from karma..which is the point of the sutra passage...and those would require a totally different methods to cure than the other ailments mentioned...but all are from a sentients karma at it's base point...

people misread stuff and then put there own ideas into it...
like this Whole Buddha thing...like what does that mean...it's not about emanations ..


this got me to thinking about people misreading what is written.


Malcolm's post that is almost identical to this one only he quotes from a sutra is gone now...dleteted or changed for some odd reason...

it dissapeared...

Regarding the causes of illness, Nichiren Daishonin quoted the Great Teacher Tiantai's Maka shikan:

To clarify the causes for illnesses, there are six categories. First are illnesses caused by an imbalance of the four elements. Second are illnesses caused by one’s inability to control one’s appetite. Third are illnesses caused by an imperfect practice of meditation. Fourth are illnesses caused by demons entering into one’s body. Fifth are illnesses caused by the work of devils. Sixth are illnesses caused by the manifestation of one’s karma.

(Gosho, p. 911)

those two posts got me to realize people misinterpret sutras and writings grossly.


anyway malcolm's original nonsense is gone ...but my talking about it is still there...

some weird shit is going on here...

Let me put it this way. Malcolm reads a sutra and some advice on ailments is written. All good advice.

The thing is it wasn’t discussing karma. A whole other teaching. So Malcolm decides to teach not all illness is due to karma.

Did you read the gosho passage and can you see the implication

[illarraza]

I'm talking about Taho buddha being a whole Buddha and what it implies.

recently Malcolm quoted from sutra and because it talks of one of the reasons for ailments being Karma...Malcolm decided it meant not all disease is karmic based...which isn't the point at all..point being there are different reasons for different ailments....
one of which is due to karma...

But all illness that causes suffering is due to karma...and yes certain ailments are cause strictly from karma..which is the point of the sutra passage...and those would require a totally different methods to cure than the other ailments mentioned...but all are from a sentients karma at it's base point...

people misread stuff and then put there own ideas into it...
like this Whole Buddha thing...like what does that mean...it's not about emanations ..


this got me to thinking about people misreading what is written.


Malcolm's post that is almost identical to this one only he quotes from a sutra is gone now...dleteted or changed for some odd reason...

it dissapeared...

Regarding the causes of illness, Nichiren Daishonin quoted the Great Teacher Tiantai's Maka shikan:

To clarify the causes for illnesses, there are six categories. First are illnesses caused by an imbalance of the four elements. Second are illnesses caused by one’s inability to control one’s appetite. Third are illnesses caused by an imperfect practice of meditation. Fourth are illnesses caused by demons entering into one’s body. Fifth are illnesses caused by the work of devils. Sixth are illnesses caused by the manifestation of one’s karma.

(Gosho, p. 911)

those two posts got me to realize people misinterpret sutras and writings grossly.


anyway malcolm's original nonsense is gone ...but my talking about it is still there...

some weird shit is going on here...

Let me put it this way. Malcolm reads a sutra and some advice on ailments is written. All good advice.

The thing is it wasn’t discussing karma. A whole other teaching. So Malcolm decides to teach not all illness is due to karma.

Did you read the gosho passage and can you see the implication

Although I don't always agree with Malcolm, according to Nichiren, the most serious difficult to cure illnesses, are those illnesses due to karma.

Regarding Taho Buddha, he is an Original or Ancient Buddha along with Mahavairochana, Medicine Buddha, the Buddha of the West, Amida, the Buddha of the East, basically all named Buddhas, and. of course, Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter. Manifesation Buddhas may be named or unnamed. Ancient or Original Buddhas in Lotus Sutra Buddhism are Buddhas who have attained Buddhahood in the most distant past. Manifestation Buddhas are considered Buddhas who have attained Buddhahood more recently. All Buddhas are considered Branched Off Bodies of Lord Shakya of the Original Doctrine. The Kempon Hokke has the following prayers:

Adoration to the Tathagata Taho*, Witness to the Hokke (Namu Shomyo, hokke no Taho Nyorai)
Adoration be to the Original (Ancient) Buddhas and Manifestation Buddhas of Our Own World and Other Quarters**

* A Branched-off Body of the Original Buddha Lord Shakya, the Buddha who bore witness that what Lord Shakya preached "is all true.
** The Buddhas of the Ten Directions who all are Branched Off Bodies of Lord Shakya of the Juryo Chapter. Branched off Bodies is another way of describing emanations and visa versa.

M

[Minobu]

sigh

Although I don't always agree with Malcolm, according to Nichiren, the most serious difficult to cure illnesses, are those illnesses due to karma.

and that's why it is in a category in and of itself in the sutra and in what john wrote..

but you don't get sick unless it is your karma to do so..

[Malcolm]

sigh

Although I don't always agree with Malcolm, according to Nichiren, the most serious difficult to cure illnesses, are those illnesses due to karma.

and that's why it is in a category in and of itself in the sutra and in what john wrote..

but you don't get sick unless it is your karma to do so..

The Buddha disagrees:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 83#p585383

[illarraza]

sigh

Although I don't always agree with Malcolm, according to Nichiren, the most serious difficult to cure illnesses, are those illnesses due to karma.

and that's why it is in a category in and of itself in the sutra and in what john wrote..

but you don't get sick unless it is your karma to do so..

The Buddha disagrees:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 83#p585383

I might add Malcolm, by Nichiren, the Eternal Buddha's foremost disciple and one of the most studied teachers in the history of Buddhism. Have you seen the footnotes in his writings? Many of these citations were from memory!

[Malcolm]

sigh




and that's why it is in a category in and of itself in the sutra and in what john wrote..

but you don't get sick unless it is your karma to do so..

The Buddha disagrees:

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... 83#p585383

I might add Malcolm, by Nichiren, the Eternal Buddha's foremost disciple and one of the most studied teachers in the history of Buddhism. Have you seen the footnotes in his writings? Many of these citations were from memory!

It is certain that Nichiren was a well-trained scholar.