poison drum/organizations

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Minobu
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poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

So as everyone knows in and out of Nichiren denominations it is so sectarian.

Like each denomination accuses the other of being wrong.

That being said, is it possible for the poison drum to manifest as a whole Nichiren denomination , attracting certain poison drum individuals there by allowing for the medicine to do it's thing.
The medicine being the Lotus sutra.

And eventually they too will attain full blown Buddhahood

And also if someone abandons all Nichiren Denominations and goes to another style of religion or Buddhist School , that would not be poison drum but more of going Tai Tan.
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tkp67
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:50 pm So as everyone knows in and out of Nichiren denominations it is so sectarian.

Like each denomination accuses the other of being wrong.

That being said, is it possible for the poison drum to manifest as a whole Nichiren denomination , attracting certain poison drum individuals there by allowing for the medicine to do it's thing.
The medicine being the Lotus sutra.

And eventually they too will attain full blown Buddhahood

And also if someone abandons all Nichiren Denominations and goes to another style of religion or Buddhist School , that would not be poison drum but more of going Tai Tan.
The lotus is representative of one's life so wouldn't that imply the poison drum exists on an individual level? When one recognizes the lotus and offer alms, etc wouldn't this mean one embraces the lotus and wouldn't doubting or distorting that the lotus that is one's own life evoke the poison drum relationship?

While organizations do create specific framework for dharma propagation and interpretation is still dependent on an individual person's own mind.
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Minobu
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 2:16 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 5:50 pm So as everyone knows in and out of Nichiren denominations it is so sectarian.

Like each denomination accuses the other of being wrong.

That being said, is it possible for the poison drum to manifest as a whole Nichiren denomination , attracting certain poison drum individuals there by allowing for the medicine to do it's thing.
The medicine being the Lotus sutra.

And eventually they too will attain full blown Buddhahood

And also if someone abandons all Nichiren Denominations and goes to another style of religion or Buddhist School , that would not be poison drum but more of going Tai Tan.
The lotus is representative of one's life so wouldn't that imply the poison drum exists on an individual level? When one recognizes the lotus and offer alms, etc wouldn't this mean one embraces the lotus and wouldn't doubting or distorting that the lotus that is one's own life evoke the poison drum relationship?

While organizations do create specific framework for dharma propagation and interpretation is still dependent on an individual person's own mind.
I see the whole thing happening here and offline in various denominations as poison drum.

When an organization influences their members to produce hatred in several Nichiren denomination is it poison drum?

Do the people involved in vast numbers a product of poison drum?


edit: omits past bullshit, as seen and experienced by me from several sides.
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Minobu
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

I've had a Nichiren Shu priest and a few members talk ill of the gakki
I've had gakki say horrible things , and lies ,against anything that is not their organization and i have had Nichiren shoshu say horrible things against gakki.

I think there is a way out from a grass roots level.
Due to The Power of Gohonzon.

The laity has to step up and rid ourselves of this nightmare.

thats the benefit of poison drum.
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

And if anyone thinks this is not happening today...i have swamp land illegally for sale
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Shotenzenjin »

Minobu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 4:11 pm And if anyone thinks this is not happening today...i have swamp land illegally for sale
You mean sectarianism between groups and orgs is still happening?

I'm not surprised. But try not to get too caught up with it. . In some cases centuries of feuds and sectarian fighting.

The best thing to do is to accept it as what it is . human behaviour. Everyone needs a tribe I guess. One way to handle it is to not trash talk other orgs or other groups with whom one finds disagreement.

YMMV
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Like smoke that reaches far beyond the clouds.--nichimoku shonin. Third high priest of Nichiren Shoshu

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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

I have a dream that one day all Nichiren Denominations will see they have more in common with each other than these differences of opinion.

It's the leadership that keeps us apart.

Without the differences they lose power and authority.
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Shotenzenjin »

Minobu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:22 pm I have a dream that one day all Nichiren Denominations will see they have more in common with each other than these differences of opinion.

It's the leadership that keeps us apart.

Without the differences they lose power and authority.
Differences sure matter. But differences is what makes the world go round. So.

Respecting each other's differences while knowing commonalities and shared history is a good way through it.
Generation's shall pass, our determination shall grow, at the foot of Mount Fuji
Like smoke that reaches far beyond the clouds.--nichimoku shonin. Third high priest of Nichiren Shoshu

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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:26 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:22 pm I have a dream that one day all Nichiren Denominations will see they have more in common with each other than these differences of opinion.

It's the leadership that keeps us apart.

Without the differences they lose power and authority.
Differences sure matter. But differences is what makes the world go round. So.

Respecting each other's differences while knowing commonalities and shared history is a good way through it.
differences of opinion in religious edicts, is not the same as ,differences is what makes the world go round.


this is the key , but only if the leaders sit down together and all of them make this a goal
Respecting each other's differences while knowing commonalities and shared history is a good way through it.
just saying such and such organization respects religious tolerance and then behind the public they sit people down and say this is the only way, Nichiren meant it to be.
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Shotenzenjin »

Minobu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:30 pm
Shotenzenjin wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:26 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:22 pm I have a dream that one day all Nichiren Denominations will see they have more in common with each other than these differences of opinion.

It's the leadership that keeps us apart.

Without the differences they lose power and authority.
Differences sure matter. But differences is what makes the world go round. So.

Respecting each other's differences while knowing commonalities and shared history is a good way through it.
differences of opinion in religious edicts, is not the same as ,differences is what makes the world go round.


this is the key , but only if the leaders sit down together and all of them make this a goal
Respecting each other's differences while knowing commonalities and shared history is a good way through it.
just saying such and such organization respects religious tolerance and then behind the public they sit people down and say this is the only way, Nichiren meant it to be.
Well let's agree to disagree regarding differences, I include in that differences between sects or schools.
Generation's shall pass, our determination shall grow, at the foot of Mount Fuji
Like smoke that reaches far beyond the clouds.--nichimoku shonin. Third high priest of Nichiren Shoshu

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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... VKyEQ_cxK9
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:50 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:30 pm
Shotenzenjin wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:26 pm

Differences sure matter. But differences is what makes the world go round. So.

Respecting each other's differences while knowing commonalities and shared history is a good way through it.
differences of opinion in religious edicts, is not the same as ,differences is what makes the world go round.


this is the key , but only if the leaders sit down together and all of them make this a goal
Respecting each other's differences while knowing commonalities and shared history is a good way through it.
just saying such and such organization respects religious tolerance and then behind the public they sit people down and say this is the only way, Nichiren meant it to be.
Well let's agree to disagree regarding differences, I include in that differences between sects or schools.
No biggy, Dawg
I feel ya.

this is the real though


Respecting each other's differences while knowing commonalities and shared history is a good way through it.
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Shotenzenjin »

Minobu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 11:00 pm
Shotenzenjin wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:50 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 7:30 pm

differences of opinion in religious edicts, is not the same as ,differences is what makes the world go round.


this is the key , but only if the leaders sit down together and all of them make this a goal



just saying such and such organization respects religious tolerance and then behind the public they sit people down and say this is the only way, Nichiren meant it to be.
Well let's agree to disagree regarding differences, I include in that differences between sects or schools.
No biggy, Dawg
I feel ya.

this is the real though


Respecting each other's differences while knowing commonalities and shared history is a good way through it.
Agree."-)
Generation's shall pass, our determination shall grow, at the foot of Mount Fuji
Like smoke that reaches far beyond the clouds.--nichimoku shonin. Third high priest of Nichiren Shoshu

Hokekko of true Buddhism https://nstny.org

Introduction to Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... VKyEQ_cxK9
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by tkp67 »

Personally I think Nichiren foresaw these differences. It isn't different than what Shakyamuni taught about his own teachings. That over time they would propagate and change losing potency thus he taught the lotus sutra as did Shakyamuni. Nichiren equates displaying the same behaviors as Shakyamuni as telling in regards to understanding one's status as a thus come one. So in this way I see Nichiren as the father of the burning house who embodies his practitioners to be the same for themselves and others in a perfect economy of effort.

The various provinces of Japan vary in size, population and geographical location yet they all represent one aspect under the title Japan.

Since the mind navigates existence through provision it becomes conditioned to provision. It is such a constant that it requires diligent practice to break this conditioning. Thus the single precept practice that allows one to objectify the true aspect of shakaymuni's enlightenment works to accomplish as much.

This is why on one hand while one may point to all the difference of opinion among the various entities that practice Nichiren Buddhism these different positions are all working to reconcile those specific positions to the lotus sutra.

I don't think it is unfair to think this is an ongoing dynamic. That throughout time lotus practitioners have seen the world through the lens of provision before they understood the true aspect so transcending difference is part of the traditional practices. The process is a developmental and has been happening for a very long time. Not unique to any one no matter how unqiue the circumstances might be. This might be the ultimate meaning of understanding the nature of these things through function instead of name because names evoke conditioning. Function might be a more magnanimous means. I can't express my gratitude for those few posts of Ronny Marsh (iir the name correctly)
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:04 am Personally I think Nichiren foresaw these differences. It isn't different than what Shakyamuni taught about his own teachings. That over time they would propagate and change losing potency thus he taught the lotus sutra as did Shakyamuni. Nichiren equates displaying the same behaviors as Shakyamuni as telling in regards to understanding one's status as a thus come one. So in this way I see Nichiren as the father of the burning house who embodies his practitioners to be the same for themselves and others in a perfect economy of effort.

The various provinces of Japan vary in size, population and geographical location yet they all represent one aspect under the title Japan.

Since the mind navigates existence through provision it becomes conditioned to provision. It is such a constant that it requires diligent practice to break this conditioning. Thus the single precept practice that allows one to objectify the true aspect of shakaymuni's enlightenment works to accomplish as much.

This is why on one hand while one may point to all the difference of opinion among the various entities that practice Nichiren Buddhism these different positions are all working to reconcile those specific positions to the lotus sutra.

I don't think it is unfair to think this is an ongoing dynamic. That throughout time lotus practitioners have seen the world through the lens of provision before they understood the true aspect so transcending difference is part of the traditional practices. The process is a developmental and has been happening for a very long time. Not unique to any one no matter how unqiue the circumstances might be. This might be the ultimate meaning of understanding the nature of these things through function instead of name because names evoke conditioning. Function might be a more magnanimous means. I can't express my gratitude for those few posts of Ronny Marsh (iir the name correctly)
i have no idea what you are talking about.

but for starters could you explain what you mean by when you say this many times in a lot of your posts
shakaymuni's enlightenment
then when you say
the true aspect of shakaymuni's enlightenment
for me The Lotus Sutra is an actual entity not a story, as malcolm says.

the Eternal Buddha is The Lotus sutra.

when you say Sakyamuni's enlightenment it's like he attained some enlightenment under a tree. Or even like He understood something.
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:40 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:04 am Personally I think Nichiren foresaw these differences. It isn't different than what Shakyamuni taught about his own teachings. That over time they would propagate and change losing potency thus he taught the lotus sutra as did Shakyamuni. Nichiren equates displaying the same behaviors as Shakyamuni as telling in regards to understanding one's status as a thus come one. So in this way I see Nichiren as the father of the burning house who embodies his practitioners to be the same for themselves and others in a perfect economy of effort.

The various provinces of Japan vary in size, population and geographical location yet they all represent one aspect under the title Japan.

Since the mind navigates existence through provision it becomes conditioned to provision. It is such a constant that it requires diligent practice to break this conditioning. Thus the single precept practice that allows one to objectify the true aspect of shakaymuni's enlightenment works to accomplish as much.

This is why on one hand while one may point to all the difference of opinion among the various entities that practice Nichiren Buddhism these different positions are all working to reconcile those specific positions to the lotus sutra.

I don't think it is unfair to think this is an ongoing dynamic. That throughout time lotus practitioners have seen the world through the lens of provision before they understood the true aspect so transcending difference is part of the traditional practices. The process is a developmental and has been happening for a very long time. Not unique to any one no matter how unqiue the circumstances might be. This might be the ultimate meaning of understanding the nature of these things through function instead of name because names evoke conditioning. Function might be a more magnanimous means. I can't express my gratitude for those few posts of Ronny Marsh (iir the name correctly)
i have no idea what you are talking about.

Everyone has a name but everyone's name is different. The function of name is to be identified and in this purpose naming conventions have similar function. However individual names have cultural, ethnic and other characteristics which people do not all identify in the same way. Not only are individual names different but they are perceived different.

Function is just function so it seems to be interpreted with less subjectivity.
but for starters could you explain what you mean by when you say this many times in a lot of your posts
shakaymuni's enlightenment
then when you say
the true aspect of shakaymuni's enlightenment
for me The Lotus Sutra is an actual entity not a story, as malcolm says.

the Eternal Buddha is The Lotus sutra.


when you say Sakyamuni's enlightenment it's like he attained some enlightenment under a tree. Or even like He understood something.
To recognize the entity of buddhahood within this sutra is done through the entity of one's life and mind not outside of it.
You must never think that any of the eighty thousand sacred teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha’s lifetime or any of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the ten directions and three existences are outside yourself. Your practice of the Buddhist teachings will not relieve you of the sufferings of birth and death in the least unless you perceive the true nature of your life.
and how it appears is a matter of cause, capacity and conditions.
Good men, the scriptures expounded by the thus come one are all for the purpose of saving and emancipating living beings. Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others; sometimes I present myself, sometimes others; sometimes I show my own actions, sometimes those of others. All that I preach is true and not false.
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 1:21 am
Minobu wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:40 am
tkp67 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 12:04 am Personally I think Nichiren foresaw these differences. It isn't different than what Shakyamuni taught about his own teachings. That over time they would propagate and change losing potency thus he taught the lotus sutra as did Shakyamuni. Nichiren equates displaying the same behaviors as Shakyamuni as telling in regards to understanding one's status as a thus come one. So in this way I see Nichiren as the father of the burning house who embodies his practitioners to be the same for themselves and others in a perfect economy of effort.

The various provinces of Japan vary in size, population and geographical location yet they all represent one aspect under the title Japan.

Since the mind navigates existence through provision it becomes conditioned to provision. It is such a constant that it requires diligent practice to break this conditioning. Thus the single precept practice that allows one to objectify the true aspect of shakaymuni's enlightenment works to accomplish as much.

This is why on one hand while one may point to all the difference of opinion among the various entities that practice Nichiren Buddhism these different positions are all working to reconcile those specific positions to the lotus sutra.

I don't think it is unfair to think this is an ongoing dynamic. That throughout time lotus practitioners have seen the world through the lens of provision before they understood the true aspect so transcending difference is part of the traditional practices. The process is a developmental and has been happening for a very long time. Not unique to any one no matter how unqiue the circumstances might be. This might be the ultimate meaning of understanding the nature of these things through function instead of name because names evoke conditioning. Function might be a more magnanimous means. I can't express my gratitude for those few posts of Ronny Marsh (iir the name correctly)
i have no idea what you are talking about.

Everyone has a name but everyone's name is different. The function of name is to be identified and in this purpose naming conventions have similar function. However individual names have cultural, ethnic and other characteristics which people do not all identify in the same way. Not only are individual names different but they are perceived different.

Function is just function so it seems to be interpreted with less subjectivity.
but for starters could you explain what you mean by when you say this many times in a lot of your posts
shakaymuni's enlightenment
then when you say
the true aspect of shakaymuni's enlightenment
for me The Lotus Sutra is an actual entity not a story, as malcolm says.

the Eternal Buddha is The Lotus sutra.


when you say Sakyamuni's enlightenment it's like he attained some enlightenment under a tree. Or even like He understood something.
To recognize the entity of buddhahood within this sutra is done through the entity of one's life and mind not outside of it.
You must never think that any of the eighty thousand sacred teachings of Shakyamuni Buddha’s lifetime or any of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas of the ten directions and three existences are outside yourself. Your practice of the Buddhist teachings will not relieve you of the sufferings of birth and death in the least unless you perceive the true nature of your life.
and how it appears is a matter of cause, capacity and conditions.
Good men, the scriptures expounded by the thus come one are all for the purpose of saving and emancipating living beings. Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others; sometimes I present myself, sometimes others; sometimes I show my own actions, sometimes those of others. All that I preach is true and not false.
tkp.
why do you refuse to answer a direct question?
Are you troubled with what you think you know?

you evade any direct question about what you refer to as :
the true aspect of shakaymuni's enlightenment
These arcane answers that only you can understand is not very helpful in forum discourse .
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Minobu
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by Minobu »

We will never find common ground to begin the healing of these rifts in Nichiren denominations without absolute honesty and clarity.
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by tkp67 »

Nichiren taught the highest and most difficult teaching. He taught the true aspect is only understood between buddhas. He also taught the four standards as framework for understanding how to proof this work meaning the confirmation you seek cannot be verbalized directly. This is no way diminishes the importance of teacher disciple within the body of Nichiren interests.
Four standards [四依] ( shie): Also, four reliances. Four standards that Buddhists must follow. According to the Nirvana Sutra and the Vimalakīrti Sutra, the four standards are (1) to rely on the Law and not upon persons; (2) to rely on the meaning of the teaching and not upon the words; (3) to rely on wisdom and not upon discriminative thinking; and (4) to rely on sutras that are complete and final and not upon those that are not complete and final.
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 3:16 am We will never find common ground to begin the healing of these rifts in Nichiren denominations without absolute honesty and clarity.
Transcending difference is foundational to this practice so I do believe that this indicates a powerful bond with Nichiren.

It is important to understand that differences in perspectives does not necessarily mean that there is a difference in goals.

If one can shed doubt that there is ill intent behind the differences in practices and perspectives and put faith in the understanding that they are simply reflective of cause, capacity and condition it makes clear that there is honesty in difference.

This is why I like the word diversity. Some people are different on purpose. I don't think people consider diversity a choice but rather an objective categorical system.
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Re: poison drum/organizations

Post by illarraza »

Correcting wrong thought is the compassionate practice for this muddled age

Someone on the Independent Sangha wrote:

"This is a point that is not only in Nichiren Buddhism - the Christians, the Jews, and other religions have broken down into different ways in which to practice. Hence sects in Buddhism. people imho strive to be individuals, unique - I am not sure many wake up and say I want to be part of a group where we all do the exact same thing. Go to a Jehova meeting, white shirts, women in dresses, the main person reading on stage reads from their bible or watchtower. they are carbon copies of each other. they do not have branches, sects or any differences between them. actually I think they are the only whole religion in the world. what you are saying sounds to me like you feel that the only way for Buddhism to be whole is be all the same. I say how boring. no need for conversation, or questions... squash all seeking spirits. Just follow the one in front of you and if you turn around the one behind is doing the same so it does not matter which direction you are going it is all the same. rather than be carbon copies why not just stop fighting? Isn't fighting anti-Buddhist? Respect and metta - compassion and understanding will bring light to Buddhism.'

Response:

Correcting wrong thought is the practice of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth in the Latter Day. It was the practice of Shakyamuni Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin. Lets take your idea to its logical conclusion...One school or individual decides it's ok to chant the Daimoku and to worship Amida Buddha. This person or sect calls itself Nichiren Daishonin's Buddhism or "I am a Nichiren Buddhist" because they chant the Daimoku of the Lotus Sutra. Many people will get the insanely wrong idea that this is correct and some will even be led to believe that Nichiren Daishonin believed that all teachings lead to Buddhahood. Another places a statue of Jesus on the altar and instructs others that individual destiny is shaped by a greater being . This person too, erroneously believes that as long as one chants the Daimoku he is a Nichiren Buddhist. Yet another is a Japanese militarist like Ishiwara who believes and teaches that Japan has a mandate to spread the Daimoku by whatever means. He assembles several divisions of zealousnyouth, arms them to the teeth and indoctrinates them with the Lotus Sutra teachings, "We do not value our own lives, we value only the Supreme Way." He leads them on a crusade against the Chinese heretics to convert them to the Daishonin's teachings. He not only calls himself a Nichiren Buddhist but others maintain that he is a great Wheel Turning King of Japan born to protect the Law by forcibly infusing and diffusing the teachings that have originated in Japan.* If you really study the teachings of Nichiren Daishonin and take the teachings of the Lotus Sutra to heart, you can never come to the interpretations and conclusions of these men. I would argue that they can chant the Daimoku day and night but that still doesn't make them Nichiren Buddhists. Those who continue to argue that all are Nichiren Buddhists who chant the Daimoku, regardless of their beliefs, will quickly destroy the sublime teachings of the Lotus Sutra. Anyone who fails to take the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter, and Nichiren Daishonin as teachers and who fails to take their teachings to heart, can not be considered a Nichiren Buddhist. We are all individuals by virtue of causes and conditions. This does not change by embracing the same Law, practice, and faith as Nichiren Daishonin. Damson, apple, pear and cherry blossoms are all flowers. They all grow from the earth and they are all nourished by a single shower of rain.

*One may only take up arms in defending the true Law and the believers. Nichiren taught that the way to spread the true Law is through a horizontal transmission [through the people] and vertical transmission [through converting the sovereign]. The vertical transmission too, according to Nichiren, is based on a constitution or decree of the sovereign making the Lotus Sutra the national religion. Both horizontal and vertical transmission is based on compassion, dialogue, and debate.
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