How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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Minobu
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How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

According to Rev. Murano in his book he explains that the two siddham characters and various Bodhisattvas on Gohonzon are Emanations of the Eternal Buddha Lord Sakyamuni Buddha .

At least this is how I read it.

This thread is as much a question as a possibility of me realizing something.

So if the Four Leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth are Emanations of The Eternal Buddha , then Bodhisattva Jogyo is an emanation of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha The Eternal Buddha .
which would make Him an emanation of the Eternal Buddha making him essentially The Eternal Buddha.

thoughts?
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by mansurhirbi87 »

could we not say that the eternal buddha is the same that the buddha nature ?
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

mansurhirbi87 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 2:11 am could we not say that the eternal buddha is the same that the buddha nature ?
Good question , best asked of Malcolm.

According to Malcolm the Primordial Buddha would be DharmaKaya.
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

I guess this is why The Four leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth are placed beside the other emanations of Lord Skayamuni Buddha on Gohonzon.

then of course the famous " I Inscribe my Life in sumi ink "

It just seems to make sense to me.

And i think it would be hard to refute...if so i would welcome the refute.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Budai »

What does it mean to be an Emanation of Gautama Buddha, like the ones mentioned as His Emanations in the Lotus Sutra?
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:01 am What does it mean to be an Emanation of Gautama Buddha, like the ones mentioned as His Emanations in the Lotus Sutra?
Good question
I’m not able to answer that. But I’ll give it a stab.
I think when people use the word Gautama they are strictly speaking about the historical Buddha in a Theravada sense
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tkp67
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

I thought the same thing but was corrected by my teacher.

Emanations come from within. The four Bodhisattva represent aspects of shakyamuni's enlightenment. The Buddhas of the ten directions and three times are provision for which all Nichiren practitioners manifest in their own life as required.

This is not a provisional vehicle.
In essence, the appearance of the treasure tower indicates that on hearing the Lotus Sutra the three groups of voice-hearers perceived for the first time the treasure tower within their own lives. Now Nichiren’s disciples and lay supporters are also doing this. In the Latter Day of the Law, no treasure tower exists other than the figures of the men and women who embrace the Lotus Sutra. It follows, therefore, that whether eminent or humble, high or low, those who chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo are themselves the treasure tower, and, likewise, are themselves the Thus Come One Many Treasures. No treasure tower exists other than Myoho-renge-kyo. The daimoku of the Lotus Sutra is the treasure tower, and the treasure tower is Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

At present the entire body of the Honorable Abutsu is composed of the five elements of earth, water, fire, wind, and space. These five elements are also the five characters of the daimoku. Abutsu-bō is therefore the treasure tower itself, and the treasure tower is Abutsu-bō himself. No other knowledge is purposeful. It is the treasure tower adorned with the seven kinds of treasures—hearing the correct teaching, believing it, keeping the precepts, engaging in meditation, practicing assiduously, renouncing one’s attachments, and reflecting on oneself. You may think you offered gifts to the treasure tower of the Thus Come One Many Treasures, but that is not so. You offered them to yourself. You, yourself, p.300are a Thus Come One who is originally enlightened and endowed with the three bodies. You should chant Nam-myoho-renge-kyo with this conviction. Then the place where you chant daimoku will become the dwelling place of the treasure tower. The sutra reads, “If there is any place where the Lotus Sutra is preached, then my treasure tower will come forth and appear in that spot.”2 Faith like yours is so extremely rare that I will inscribe the treasure tower especially for you. You must never transfer it to anyone but your son. You must never show it to others unless they have steadfast faith. This is the reason for my advent in this world.

Abutsu-bō, you deserve to be called a leader of this northern province. Could it be that Bodhisattva Pure Practices has been reborn into this world as Abutsu-bō and visited me? How wonderful! How marvelous! I do not understand how it is that you have such faith. I will leave it to Bodhisattva Superior Practices when he appears, as he has the power to know these things. I am not saying all this without good reason. You and your wife should worship this treasure tower privately. I will explain more later.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/31

On the Treasure Tower
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:17 pm According to Rev. Murano in his book he explains that the two siddham characters and various Bodhisattvas on Gohonzon are Emanations of the Eternal Buddha Lord Sakyamuni Buddha .

At least this is how I read it.

This thread is as much a question as a possibility of me realizing something.

So if the Four Leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth are Emanations of The Eternal Buddha , then Bodhisattva Jogyo is an emanation of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha The Eternal Buddha .
which would make Him an emanation of the Eternal Buddha making him essentially The Eternal Buddha.

thoughts?
Two but not two and one but not one.

"When we consider the matter in this light, we can see that Vairochana Buddha seated on the lotus pedestal of the ten directions as described in the Flower Garland Sutra, the little Shakyamuni described in the Āgama sutras,53 and the provisional Buddhas described in the sutras of the Correct and Equal and the Wisdom periods such as the Golden Light, Amida, and Mahāvairochana sutras are no more than reflections of p.236the Buddha of the “Life Span” chapter. They are like fleeting reflections of the moon that float on the surfaces of various large and small bodies of water. The scholars of the various schools of Buddhism, confused as to [the nature of the Buddhas of] their own school and, more fundamentally, ignorant of [the Buddha of] the “Life Span” chapter of the Lotus Sutra, mistake the reflection in the water for the actual moon, some of them entering the water and trying to grasp it in their hands, others attempting to snare it with a rope. As T’ien-t’ai says, “They know nothing of the moon in the sky, but gaze only at the moon in the pond.” - Thew Opening of the Eyes.

Nichiren is VERY clear here. There are two other citations of "moon in the pond" in The Essence of the Lifespan Chapter and in Letter to Akimoto. I understand that Narwhal and Dharma Wheel frowns upon mere quotations but who better to quote when there are disputes about doctrine but Nichiren himself in a Nichiren Forum?

Mark
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

I think upholding Nichiren teachings simply needs to be done in smaller digestible posts.

The dynamic of mixing lotus and provision causes chaos. As lotus practitioners expedient means and the passages on leaves and branches comes to mind.

Leaves and branches do not know the way of trunks and roots, they simply are nurtured by them.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

this whole my teacher says is tedious.
everyone here is honest about where they are coming from. Are you ashamed of the gakki or something.

Only Nichiren shoshu believes that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is not the Eternal Buddha.
the Gakki has adopted that and teaches that the ceremony in air is just a metaphor.

also that Shoten Zenjin are not deities of the six realms of samsara, they are functions of the universe.

I was not prepared for the Gakki approach to what i realized.
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

illarraza wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:22 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:17 pm According to Rev. Murano in his book he explains that the two siddham characters and various Bodhisattvas on Gohonzon are Emanations of the Eternal Buddha Lord Sakyamuni Buddha .

At least this is how I read it.

This thread is as much a question as a possibility of me realizing something.

So if the Four Leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth are Emanations of The Eternal Buddha , then Bodhisattva Jogyo is an emanation of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha The Eternal Buddha .
which would make Him an emanation of the Eternal Buddha making him essentially The Eternal Buddha.

thoughts?
Two but not two and one but not one.

"When we consider the matter in this light, we can see that Vairochana Buddha seated on the lotus pedestal of the ten directions as described in the Flower Garland Sutra, the little Shakyamuni described in the Āgama sutras,53 and the provisional Buddhas described in the sutras of the Correct and Equal and the Wisdom periods such as the Golden Light, Amida, and Mahāvairochana sutras are no more than reflections of p.236the Buddha of the “Life Span” chapter. They are like fleeting reflections of the moon that float on the surfaces of various large and small bodies of water. The scholars of the various schools of Buddhism, confused as to [the nature of the Buddhas of] their own school and, more fundamentally, ignorant of [the Buddha of] the “Life Span” chapter of the Lotus Sutra, mistake the reflection in the water for the actual moon, some of them entering the water and trying to grasp it in their hands, others attempting to snare it with a rope. As T’ien-t’ai says, “They know nothing of the moon in the sky, but gaze only at the moon in the pond.” - Thew Opening of the Eyes.

Nichiren is VERY clear here. There are two other citations of "moon in the pond" in The Essence of the Lifespan Chapter and in Letter to Akimoto. I understand that Narwhal and Dharma Wheel frowns upon mere quotations but who better to quote when there are disputes about doctrine but Nichiren himself in a Nichiren Forum?

Mark
this is like conversing with chas on the alt site. lol.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:38 pm this whole my teacher says is tedious.
everyone here is honest about where they are coming from. Are you ashamed of the gakki or something.

Only Nichiren shoshu believes that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is not the Eternal Buddha.
the Gakki has adopted that and teaches that the ceremony in air is just a metaphor.

also that Shoten Zenjin are not deities of the six realms of samsara, they are functions of the universe.

I was not prepared for the Gakki approach to what i realized.
It is also what Nichiren taught. I simply stated that I interpreted it the same way because that is how I thought of it before I clarified it with my teacher.

If this causes you internal tedium I cannot help you.

I am not ashamed to discuss my own developmental perspectives and how they changed over time.

:anjali:
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Lol

Besides the lol. Conversation with you has the dangers of lockdown.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

you asked to be challenged and I gave a true report of my experience and you call it aggravating.

Please tell me what about the post about the teacher should have been different to meet your needs? Or please tell me how I should have known it was offensive.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:46 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:38 pm this whole my teacher says is tedious.
everyone here is honest about where they are coming from. Are you ashamed of the gakki or something.

Only Nichiren shoshu believes that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is not the Eternal Buddha.
the Gakki has adopted that and teaches that the ceremony in air is just a metaphor.

also that Shoten Zenjin are not deities of the six realms of samsara, they are functions of the universe.

I was not prepared for the Gakki approach to what i realized.
It is also what Nichiren taught. I simply stated that I interpreted it the same way because that is how I thought of it before I clarified it with my teacher.

If this causes you internal tedium I cannot help you.

I am not ashamed to discuss my own developmental perspectives and how they changed over time.

:anjali:
No it is not what Nichiren taught it is “your teacher’s”view. And you should be honest when hijacking
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

tkp it's hard to discuss something when someone with an entirely different take on Lord Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha is being duplicitous . not admitting where they are coming from.

I get what a great purpose the Gakki does but it is not actual Nichiren Teachings , it's based on nichiren shoshu concepts. which is cool too..i get the need for such a happening.
also ikeda's take on things for a modern sensibilities is also duplicitous to me.

i'm sorry if i don't have patience for you anymore.
Last edited by Minobu on Thu May 06, 2021 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:59 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:46 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:38 pm this whole my teacher says is tedious.
everyone here is honest about where they are coming from. Are you ashamed of the gakki or something.

Only Nichiren shoshu believes that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is not the Eternal Buddha.
the Gakki has adopted that and teaches that the ceremony in air is just a metaphor.

also that Shoten Zenjin are not deities of the six realms of samsara, they are functions of the universe.

I was not prepared for the Gakki approach to what i realized.
It is also what Nichiren taught. I simply stated that I interpreted it the same way because that is how I thought of it before I clarified it with my teacher.

If this causes you internal tedium I cannot help you.

I am not ashamed to discuss my own developmental perspectives and how they changed over time.

:anjali:
No it is not what Nichiren taught it is “your teacher’s”view. And you should be honest when hijacking
I am talking about emanations specifically. The perspective of Nichiren as "true" eternal buddha does not downgrade Shakyamuni's enlightenment.

The lifespan of bodhisattva Mahasattva and buddhas can be understood and proofed from the LS.

If you read the whole of his writings you might note that he himself identifies differently throughout.

His behavior is meant to be understood juxtapose Shakymauni's.

The conflict between the concepts doesn't exist between Shakyamuni and Nichiren and no one is saying YOU need to change your view so I don't understand why various perspectives offend you. More importantly you ask for them specifically and then react.

It is a difficult proposition that I didn't create. I do believe Nichiren encouraged examination of these things from various perspectives in part to teach people to become objective in discussions of dharma.

:anjali:
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:10 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:59 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:46 pm

It is also what Nichiren taught. I simply stated that I interpreted it the same way because that is how I thought of it before I clarified it with my teacher.

If this causes you internal tedium I cannot help you.

I am not ashamed to discuss my own developmental perspectives and how they changed over time.

:anjali:
No it is not what Nichiren taught it is “your teacher’s”view. And you should be honest when hijacking
I am talking about emanations specifically. The perspective of Nichiren as "true" eternal buddha does not downgrade Shakyamuni's enlightenment.


:anjali:
full stop ..right there..when you say
does not downgrade Shakyamuni's enlightenment.
you are down grading the fact Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is The eternal Buddha.

the OP is about how Nichiren fits into being The Eternal Buddha Sakyamuni .


ok so we are now discussing...sorry folks for going all crazy.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:01 am What does it mean to be an Emanation of Gautama Buddha, like the ones mentioned as His Emanations in the Lotus Sutra?
Supposed to mean what it means in the rest of Mahayana view. I don't know what these guys think its supposed to be. More specifically, for this forum, it should refer to the the buddhas of the ten directions who are assembled to hear Shakyamuni teach the Lotus Sutra, along with the emergence of the stupa of Tathagata Prabhutaratna.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:08 pm tkp it's hard to discuss something when someone with an entirely different take on Lord Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha is being duplicitous . not admitting where they are coming from.

I get what a great purpose the Gakki does but it is not actual Nichiren Teachings , it's based on nichiren shoshu concepts. which is cool too..i get the need for such a happening.

i'm sorry if i don't have patience for you anymore.
You don't have patience for what? If one is sure of their position other perspectives should not cause discord unless one is attached to said unsurety.

The real irony here is that if you look at the ecosystem of Nichiren organizations it appears much like the various schools that were developed from Shakyamuni's existence. That is he taught and the teachings attenuated taking different shapes and forms over time.

Yet they all lead to the same source. The source never changes. It is not created it isn't destroyed. So at some point wanting such perfect distinctions is the problem not the variety amongst the teachings.

The lotus was taught specifically for this purpose. The cacophony among practitioners is because they have yet to realize the lotus. It doesn't get more complex than this but the devil of the sixth is powerful as are the enemies and obstacles.

One's internal state is meant to be indestructible when applying this teaching correctly and correctly is best understood by the passage where Shakyamuni states Bodhisattva Never Disparage was him in a prior life and it was this bodhisattva's beahvior as a human being that facilitated Shakyamuni's world honored existence.
“Gainer of Great Authority, what do you think? The bodhisattva Never Disparaging who lived at that time—could he be unknown to you? In fact he was none other than I myself! If in my previous existences I had not accepted, upheld, read, and recited this sutra and preached it for others, I would never have been able to attain supreme perfect enlightenment this quickly. Because in the presence of those earlier buddhas I accepted, upheld, read, and recited this sutra and preached it for others, I was able quickly to attain supreme perfect enlightenment.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/20

Bodhisattva Never Disparaging
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