How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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tkp67
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:14 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:10 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 2:59 pm
No it is not what Nichiren taught it is “your teacher’s”view. And you should be honest when hijacking
I am talking about emanations specifically. The perspective of Nichiren as "true" eternal buddha does not downgrade Shakyamuni's enlightenment.


:anjali:
full stop ..right there..when you say
does not downgrade Shakyamuni's enlightenment.
you are down grading the fact Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is The eternal Buddha.

the OP is about how Nichiren fits into being The Eternal Buddha Sakyamuni .


ok so we are now discussing...sorry folks for going all crazy.
Nichiren as the eternal buddha is not an offence to Shakyamuni. I offer the Lotus itself as proof. The proof all Nichiren traditions rely on. The fact that you want to keep Shakyamuni separate is provisional and is an attempt to undo what he has already declared.
Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
equal to me, without any distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc ... 2#para-295

Expedient Means

Nichiren warned of the dangers of mixing provisional teachings with lotus teachings before one had grasped the Lotus because this type of confusion occurs.
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:16 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:01 am What does it mean to be an Emanation of Gautama Buddha, like the ones mentioned as His Emanations in the Lotus Sutra?
along with the emergence of the stupa of Tathagata Prabhutaratna.
i'm trying to come to terms with rev Murano and his saying due to the position of Taho Buddha on Gohonzon Nichiren is saying that this Buddha represents all Buddhas of the past.
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:24 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:14 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:10 pm

I am talking about emanations specifically. The perspective of Nichiren as "true" eternal buddha does not downgrade Shakyamuni's enlightenment.


:anjali:
full stop ..right there..when you say
does not downgrade Shakyamuni's enlightenment.
you are down grading the fact Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is The eternal Buddha.

Nichiren as the eternal buddha is not an offence to Shakyamuni.

thats not what i was talking about.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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Minobu wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:17 pm According to Rev. Murano in his book he explains that the two siddham characters and various Bodhisattvas on Gohonzon are Emanations of the Eternal Buddha Lord Sakyamuni Buddha .

At least this is how I read it.

This thread is as much a question as a possibility of me realizing something.

So if the Four Leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth are Emanations of The Eternal Buddha , then Bodhisattva Jogyo is an emanation of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha The Eternal Buddha .
which would make Him an emanation of the Eternal Buddha making him essentially The Eternal Buddha.

thoughts?
When you suggest anything is "essentially" something, you are reducing it to one thing, and that's not tenable. Nothing compounded is something simpliciter, ie. nothing is just a rock, or a person, or a buddha, or whatever. So long as the thing we are talking about is compounded, its not essentially anything in particular. Its a provisionally organized confluence of causes and conditions, which are in turn provisionally organized confluences of causes and conditions, ad inifinitum, until you relent and admit that there's no core in this mystical matroyshka doll we call the self.

You'd be on firmer ground if you'd just take what Nichiren wrote about himself as your starting point.

In a sense, of course, we are all emanations of buddha. That is the point of buddhanature teachings. Sure, we could in some sense say Nichiren is an emanation of Shakyamuni. He never made such a claim, instead suggesting he was an emissary, specifically, Bodhisattva Visistacaritra. He also likened himself to Bodhisattva Sadaparibhuta, a previous birth of Shakyamuni in the remote past when he was a bodhisattva (which of course was really a play for the benefit of beings). He made statements like, "I am the pillar of Japan!", but he never said, "I am the primordial Buddha!" because that would be ridiculous and he knew better.

I will venture that calling Nichiren Hombutsu (Original Buddha) is a training in the sense that we look on our teacher as the Buddha. This is highly developed in Tibetan Buddhism, but it is also a critical view in Mahayana in general. This does not sit easily in Nichiren's thought because so much is made of the dictum, "Rely on the Dharma and not on people."

Life is much easier when you decide its easier not to hold twisted gymnastics poses and cross your eyes just so you can see the mystical stuff somebody says is there.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:32 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:17 pm According to Rev. Murano in his book he explains that the two siddham characters and various Bodhisattvas on Gohonzon are Emanations of the Eternal Buddha Lord Sakyamuni Buddha .

At least this is how I read it.

This thread is as much a question as a possibility of me realizing something.

So if the Four Leaders of the Bodhisattvas of the Earth are Emanations of The Eternal Buddha , then Bodhisattva Jogyo is an emanation of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha The Eternal Buddha .
which would make Him an emanation of the Eternal Buddha making him essentially The Eternal Buddha.

thoughts?
When you suggest anything is "essentially" something, you are reducing it to one thing, and that's not tenable. Nothing compounded is something simpliciter, ie. nothing is just a rock, or a person, or a buddha, or whatever. So long as the thing we are talking about is compounded, its not essentially anything in particular. Its a provisionally organized confluence of causes and conditions, which are in turn provisionally organized confluences of causes and conditions, ad inifinitum, until you relent and admit that there's no core in this mystical matroyshka doll we call the self.

You'd be on firmer ground if you'd just take what Nichiren wrote about himself as your starting point.

In a sense, of course, we are all emanations of buddha. That is the point of buddhanature teachings. Sure, we could in some sense say Nichiren is an emanation of Shakyamuni. He never made such a claim, instead suggesting he was an emissary, specifically, Bodhisattva Visistacaritra. He also likened himself to Bodhisattva Sadaparibhuta, a previous birth of Shakyamuni in the remote past when he was a bodhisattva (which of course was really a play for the benefit of beings). He made statements like, "I am the pillar of Japan!", but he never said, "I am the primordial Buddha!" because that would be ridiculous and he knew better.

I will venture that calling Nichiren Hombutsu (Original Buddha) is a training in the sense that we look on our teacher as the Buddha. This is highly developed in Tibetan Buddhism, but it is also a critical view in Mahayana in general. This does not sit easily in Nichiren's thought because so much is made of the dictum, "Rely on the Dharma and not on people."

Life is much easier when you decide its easier not to hold twisted gymnastics poses and cross your eyes just so you can see the mystical stuff somebody says is there.
when i said
When you suggest anything is "essentially" something,
this is due to my grammar and inability to articulate at times. I get what you mean though...the whole inherency thing..
that aside..

what i see is that Nichiren did claim to be Bodhisattva Jogyo.

Now if all these Bodhisattvas and Buddhas on Gohonzon are emanations of Lord Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha ,and Bodhisattva Jogyo is one as well...

that gave me the idea that in this way Nichiren Shonin is an emanation of the Eternal Buddha.

unfortunately i'm not educated in grammar , as you know i only graduated grade nine. so just take what i say like actual conversation.

not making excuses i do try.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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I think from a developmental perspective your interpretation and expression are reasonable, honorable and appropriate.

Nichiren writes that this is the ultimate teaching of Shakyamuni and that if it were less than this difficult it wouldn't be the path to the great vehicle.

I do believe at a point such as this the biggest obstacle becomes doubt in our own understand and the understanding of others. As the degenerate age would have it everything seems at odds so it seems the task becomes avoiding that from manifesting internally. Since we are born into an age where everything is at odds most people accept this as true reality so it is expressed everywhere.

Difficult times indeed.

:anjali:
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:44 pm when i said
When you suggest anything is "essentially" something,
this is due to my grammar and inability to articulate at times. I get what you mean though...the whole inherency thing..
that aside..

what i see is that Nichiren did claim to be Bodhisattva Jogyo.

Now if all these Bodhisattvas and Buddhas on Gohonzon are emanations of Lord Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha ,and Bodhisattva Jogyo is one as well...

that gave me the idea that in this way Nichiren Shonin is an emanation of the Eternal Buddha.

unfortunately i'm not educated in grammar , as you know i only graduated grade nine. so just take what i say like actual conversation.

not making excuses i do try.
Grammar aside - if we ever meet and you see my real, relaxed, spontaneous personality, not this one that's concerned with communicating clearly, I speak with a lot of dropped consonants and (dated) colloquial slang. Word.

The Gohonzon is a mandala. If there is any doubt about its tantric influences, notice that Fudo Myoo and Aizen Myoo, references to the Vajradhatu and Garbhadhatu mandalas, that appear on almost every extant mandala he inscribed.

The central deity on his Mandala is 南無妙法蓮華経 written down the center. Everything else emanates out, as suggested by the extended lines drawn out of the written characters.

Nichiren's message is right there in those characters - Namu in the Subtle Dharma of the White Lotus Sutra. When one surrenders into the subtle dharma, where there is no self, just the expression of the teaching in the thought, word, and action, what else is that but the expression of the teaching? Nichiren taught reading the sutra with the body. IMO, if you want to understand what Nichiren thought about emanations, consider that teaching - "reading the sutra with the body."

A little kung fu cinema trope to illustrate reading with the body:

There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:25 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:16 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:01 am What does it mean to be an Emanation of Gautama Buddha, like the ones mentioned as His Emanations in the Lotus Sutra?
along with the emergence of the stupa of Tathagata Prabhutaratna.
i'm trying to come to terms with rev Murano and his saying due to the position of Taho Buddha on Gohonzon Nichiren is saying that this Buddha represents all Buddhas of the past.
i have read this book over and over .

i had to undo a lot of what i thought was "True Buddhism" .

Questions and answers on Nichiren Buddhism
by
Senchu Murano
1998

Q did you see this post above... I would love for your take on Taho Buddha and position on Gohonzon.
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:06 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:44 pm when i said
When you suggest anything is "essentially" something,
this is due to my grammar and inability to articulate at times. I get what you mean though...the whole inherency thing..
that aside..

what i see is that Nichiren did claim to be Bodhisattva Jogyo.

Now if all these Bodhisattvas and Buddhas on Gohonzon are emanations of Lord Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha ,and Bodhisattva Jogyo is one as well...

that gave me the idea that in this way Nichiren Shonin is an emanation of the Eternal Buddha.

unfortunately i'm not educated in grammar , as you know i only graduated grade nine. so just take what i say like actual conversation.

not making excuses i do try.
Grammar aside - if we ever meet and you see my real, relaxed, spontaneous personality, not this one that's concerned with communicating clearly, I speak with a lot of dropped consonants and (dated) colloquial slang. Word.

The Gohonzon is a mandala. If there is any doubt about its tantric influences, notice that Fudo Myoo and Aizen Myoo, references to the Vajradhatu and Garbhadhatu mandalas, that appear on almost every extant mandala he inscribed.

The central deity on his Mandala is 南無妙法蓮華経 written down the center. Everything else emanates out, as suggested by the extended lines drawn out of the written characters.

Nichiren's message is right there in those characters - Namu in the Subtle Dharma of the White Lotus Sutra. When one surrenders into the subtle dharma, where there is no self, just the expression of the teaching in the thought, word, and action, what else is that but the expression of the teaching? Nichiren taught reading the sutra with the body. IMO, if you want to understand what Nichiren thought about emanations, consider that teaching - "reading the sutra with the body."

A little kung fu cinema trope to illustrate reading with the body:

very cool Q .

yesterday i started a post about this and decided not to
The Gohonzon is a mandala. If there is any doubt about its tantric influences,
instead of visualized Buddhas and Ornaments and such The Gohonzon is Characters which define.

We immerse ourselves in this Mandala.

immerse is the best i can describe it...

for me it's the same as entering a pool of water.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:06 pm

The Gohonzon is a mandala. If there is any doubt about its tantric influences, notice that Fudo Myoo and Aizen Myoo, references to the Vajradhatu and Garbhadhatu mandalas, that appear on almost every extant mandala he inscribed.

i've been at this for some time now, made quite a few posts about it.

here is a good one from 2017
Minobu wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:58 pm
The most important thing is Nichiren Shonin studied all the Buddhism that was available. He understood Tantra which is never taught , and yet i see it in the very structure of Gohonzon. the whole 3D thing he tried to convey has meaning. It's like a body amongst those at Eagle Peek.
edit
i think the body i was mentioning is Bodhisattva Jogyo ...??...
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:25 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:16 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:01 am What does it mean to be an Emanation of Gautama Buddha, like the ones mentioned as His Emanations in the Lotus Sutra?
along with the emergence of the stupa of Tathagata Prabhutaratna.
i'm trying to come to terms with rev Murano and his saying due to the position of Taho Buddha on Gohonzon Nichiren is saying that this Buddha represents all Buddhas of the past.
That's my understanding of how he is interpreted. He is an extinct buddha who made a vow to appear whenever the Lotus was taught. But if you just read the Lotus Sutra, the arrangement follows the text. Consider conventions about placement - right side being the place of honor (right hand man), left being slightly lower (left hand magic), top row, next row, and then Nichiren on the ground.

Anyway, I suppose that info with some beads and incense will give you something to do, give you the props to read the sutra with the mind and the mouth.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:25 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:25 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 3:16 pm
along with the emergence of the stupa of Tathagata Prabhutaratna.
i'm trying to come to terms with rev Murano and his saying due to the position of Taho Buddha on Gohonzon Nichiren is saying that this Buddha represents all Buddhas of the past.
That's my understanding of how he is interpreted. He is an extinct buddha who made a vow to appear whenever the Lotus was taught. But if you just read the Lotus Sutra, the arrangement follows the text. Consider conventions about placement - right side being the place of honor (right hand man), left being slightly lower (left hand magic), top row, next row, and then Nichiren on the ground.

Anyway, I suppose that info with some beads and incense will give you something to do, give you the props to read the sutra with the mind and the mouth.
i don't have beads and no incense ..just a computer screen with the Shutei Gohonzon propped up on a defunct HP printer and an online copy of gongyo from Nichiren Shoshu.

which as i stated before really helps me in conquering the problem of where and what to actually be chanting with.

omits lol...
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

oh and a candle because years ago Malcolm mentioned it was the only item necessary in Dzogchen practice.

edit also i think he mentioned something about a symbol..dunno..but the candle is important so it's like an insurance policy for me now.

recalls the donation of bricks in Lilies of the field with sidney poitier
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by markatex »

What book are you referring to? I don’t think I’m familiar with it.

There’s a sense in which we are all emanations of the Eternal Buddha. That doesn’t point to Nichiren being a Buddha that subsumes Shakyamuni, as Nichiren Shoshu teaches.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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I suppose I should read the whole thread before I post…
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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The Buddha said to the bodhisattva mahasattva Great Joy of Preaching, “This Many Treasures Buddha has taken a profound vow, saying, ‘When my treasure tower, in order to listen to the Lotus Sutra, comes forth into the presence of one of the buddhas, if there should be those who wish me to show my body to the four kinds of believers, then let the various buddhas who are emanations of that buddha and who are preaching the Law in the worlds in the ten directions all return and gather around that buddha in a single spot. Only when that has been done will my body become visible.’ Great Joy of Preaching, I will now gather together the various buddhas that are emanations of my body and that are preaching the Law in the worlds in the ten directions.”
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/11

Emergence of the Treasure Tower
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Giovanni »

Thank you Queequeg..fascinating. The idea of Gohonzon as mandala and the system as an offshoot of tantra has given me an insight into a tradition which puzzles me. If you are correct it begin to make sense.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

markatex wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 5:51 pm I suppose I should read the whole thread before I post…
I was hoping you checked in..

the book from rev. Murano i gave the whole title ...

the point i'm trying to see ...for myself actually...

is that Nichiren shonin being as He stated Bodhisattva Jogyo would mean He is an emanation of Lord Guru Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha.

Now the whole we all ur emanations of the Eternal Buddha i don;t really get...even though it's dharma.


I'm speaking in the sense that Avalokiteshvara Buddha , Manjushri Buddha and all Buddhas are Emanations of The Eternal Buddha which would follow that the Four Leaders of the Bodhisattvas of The Earth are emanations of the Eternal Buddha.

so one step further from my perspective of things....ShoShu sort of had it right...but the whole anti Lord Sakyamuni Buddha being a junk Buddha is really wrong for they don;t see....from my perspective....that in fact Nichiren shonin is an emanation of The Eternal Buddha.


you know what just forget the whole thing...it's just me...made for some post counts and views anyway...
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Queequeg »

Giovanni wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 6:13 pm Thank you Queequeg..fascinating. The idea of Gohonzon as mandala and the system as an offshoot of tantra has given me an insight into a tradition which puzzles me. If you are correct it begin to make sense.
Sure :)

Nichiren came from Japanese Tendai which has both, to use Indo-Tibetan terminology, Sutrayana and Vajrayana - in the English terminology used for Japanese Buddhism - exoteric and esoteric teachings.

There are documents where he claims entrustment of the Vajradhatu and Garbhadhatu mandalas from Mahavairochana Buddha.

This aspect of his teaching is not well received in Nichiren circles because of his explicit criticism of Shingon, a Japanese exclusively Vajrayana school. IMO, you can't understand Nichiren without the background of Vajrayana.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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:good:
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