How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

[Minobu]

So there was never a time when there were beings of light , sorry i don't think so.
So Desire did not creep into this thus creating Samsara, sorry i do not think so.

Samsara , all of samsara is suffering due to desire.

I will fetch the book and try to find you the text where this was first introduced to me.

till then
maybe Malcolm can give us the text where there has always been Buddhas and Buddhas.


also whilst you are here.
QQ you are the guy that professes the time that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha who described in the Lotus Sutra when He first attained Buddhahood means He is The Eternal Buddha.

And yet even though it is an incredibly long time , it is still finite and has a point.

this was the reason i explored him being the Eternal Buddha.
which does not make sense if you read His explanation of when He actually did Attain Buddhahood.


another thing...

Stephen Hawking has this theory that the universe , big bangs after big bangs after big bangs , is so long time eventually bends upon itself making it like a loop. So he added he understands why we can remember yesterday but why are not able to remember tomorrow.


as for Karma
So yeah but what of this whole concept of blowing it all out..when all Karma is totally blown out ...what then. Is that not the goal of saving and liberating all sentient beings trapped in the six realms of Samsara.

and what of the Pure Lands produced by those who attain Buddhahood , what design is that built from...and i don't mean fanciful wondrous magic trees and wish granting jewels about..and such...the actual realm...it's the same realm , i think, as the realm before desire crept into the picture...

I think a quick think about the vedic principle of Paramatman is in order.

[Minobu]

hmmmm

Honbutsu (本佛) refers to Shakyamuni Buddha as he is revealed in the Original Gate teaching (honmon 本門).

Original Enlightenment (hongaku 本覚) is the teaching that we embody enlightenment as-is. The caveat is that ordinary sentient beings are not aware of this original state and mistake it as something else, which leads to suffering, samsara, etc. The distinguishing characteristic of a buddha is that they see things as they really are, while sentient beings do not.

[Minobu]

I had this discussion with Rinpoche once in a meeting at His Gompa.
He talked of this Original state and how it ...forget how we got to the next ...do not want to put words in his Mouth..

any way I asked ..and I interpreted His look and no response as well...i dunno...

So i asked.

If this state was so perfect then how did we all end up in this nightmare ?

I recall one woman giving out a LOL...a yelp...

Last time i saw here was she was sitting next to the kid who won an award for that movie..the sixth sense.
I forget what award show it was..

anyway i see it because the thing is DESIRE crept into that state ...I guess because it could.

Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo produces both defilement and enlightenment..

so the game is afoot.

[Minobu]

First there is reality, suchness, dharmatā, śunyatā, etc. The realization of that reality is called "dharmakāya." When dharmakāya is realized, then the rūpakāyas can manifest. Dharmakāya isn't a thing, it is a realization.

and yet the Mahayana is said to be inspired by the Dharmakaya Body of the Buddha..hundreds of years after His passing,.so He gets to do things with it thereby it is not just a realization.

[LastLegend]

I think it was jake who made a post somewhere about Saha or dharma realms is the Dharmakaya of Mahavairocana. I believe it!

[Minobu]

I think it was jake who made a post somewhere about Saha or dharma realms is the Dharmakaya of Mahavairocana. I believe it!

It isn't related to what I'm talking about.

but thanks for trying to be helpful as always.

[tkp67]

If this state was so perfect then how did we all end up in this nightmare ?

I would have to dig up the exact reference but iirc in the Brahma's Net Sutra there is a reference to brahma giving rise to creation in his own mind for companionship. It is terrible paraphrasing and how it was said was poignant. It exists in other systems as well and my understanding is simply this.

The backdrop is mankind has yet to understand that their own mind interprets reality so the agency really lie within. This does not necessarily dismiss some past observations about reality but majority of the time it is seen through external agency. This was probably really critical for starting civilizations. That is to have some sort of uniform external agency in which to understand interconnections. Baby steps however.

So it seemed to say that Brahma's mind itself gave rise to brahmen, perhaps even for virtuous reasons. In the act of giving rise to such things corruption was formed. Almost like it is a saying every human mind gives rise to specific realms for reasons such as these and in the course of the mind manifesting such thoughts samsara natural manifests as well. I believe this is what the buddha meant when he said that there is a buddha abiding in every expedient.

The take away is within our own individual existences these things play out on an individual basis based on cause, conditions and capacities.

I will look for the reference if you like. I had read it some time ago but it was peculiar enough I felt important enough to safe for future reference. Also this is not a validated interpretation this is the first time I ever shared it so there I cannot say it is the correct remembrance or interpretation.

[LastLegend]

I think it was jake who made a post somewhere about Saha or dharma realms is the Dharmakaya of Mahavairocana. I believe it!

It isn't related to what I'm talking about.

but thanks for trying to be helpful as always.

I could be way off and weird...and contrary to Trikaya. My thought is what isn’t Dharmakaya?

[Queequeg]

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/K/14

[Malcolm]

If this state was so perfect then how did we all end up in this nightmare ?

I would have to dig up the exact reference but iirc in the Brahma's Net Sutra there is a reference to brahma giving rise to creation in his own mind for companionship.

Nope, that's not how it is framed by the Buddha:

10. 'There comes a time, Vasettha, when, sooner or later after a long period, this world contracts. At a time of contraction, beings are mostly born in the Abhassara Brahma world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious — and they stay like that for a very long time. But sooner or later, after a very long period, this world begins to expand again. At a time of expansion, the beings from the Abhassara Brahma world, [85] having passed away from there, are mostly reborn in this world. Here they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self- luminous, moving through the air, glorious--and they stay like that for a very long time.
11. 'At that period, Vasettha, there was just one mass of water, and all was darkness, blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared, no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not distinguished, nor months and fortnights, no years or seasons, and no male and female, beings being reckoned just as beings. And sooner or later, after a very long period of time, savoury earth spread itself over the waters where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that forms itself over hot milk as it cools. It was endowed with colour, smell and taste. It was the colour of fine ghee or butter, and it was very sweet, like pure wild honey.
12. 'Then some being of a greedy nature said: "I say, what can this be?" and tasted the savoury earth on its finger. In so doing, it became taken with the flavour, and craving arose in it. Then other beings, taking their cue from that one, also tasted the stuff with their fingers. They too were taken with the flavour, and craving arose in them. So they set to with their hands, breaking off pieces of the stuff in order to eat it. And [86] the result of this was that their self-luminance disappeared. And as a result of the disappearance of their self-luminance, the moon and the sun appeared, night and day were distinguished, months and fortnights appeared, and the year and its seasons. To that extent the world re-evolved.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/religion/f2 ... asutta.pdf

[tkp67]

If this state was so perfect then how did we all end up in this nightmare ?

I would have to dig up the exact reference but iirc in the Brahma's Net Sutra there is a reference to brahma giving rise to creation in his own mind for companionship.

Nope, that's not how it is framed by the Buddha:

10. 'There comes a time, Vasettha, when, sooner or later after a long period, this world contracts. At a time of contraction, beings are mostly born in the Abhassara Brahma world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious — and they stay like that for a very long time. But sooner or later, after a very long period, this world begins to expand again. At a time of expansion, the beings from the Abhassara Brahma world, [85] having passed away from there, are mostly reborn in this world. Here they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self- luminous, moving through the air, glorious--and they stay like that for a very long time.
11. 'At that period, Vasettha, there was just one mass of water, and all was darkness, blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared, no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not distinguished, nor months and fortnights, no years or seasons, and no male and female, beings being reckoned just as beings. And sooner or later, after a very long period of time, savoury earth spread itself over the waters where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that forms itself over hot milk as it cools. It was endowed with colour, smell and taste. It was the colour of fine ghee or butter, and it was very sweet, like pure wild honey.
12. 'Then some being of a greedy nature said: "I say, what can this be?" and tasted the savoury earth on its finger. In so doing, it became taken with the flavour, and craving arose in it. Then other beings, taking their cue from that one, also tasted the stuff with their fingers. They too were taken with the flavour, and craving arose in them. So they set to with their hands, breaking off pieces of the stuff in order to eat it. And [86] the result of this was that their self-luminance disappeared. And as a result of the disappearance of their self-luminance, the moon and the sun appeared, night and day were distinguished, months and fortnights appeared, and the year and its seasons. To that extent the world re-evolved.

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/religion/f2 ... asutta.pdf

OK, TY. Interesting. At some point I will try to find the other for comparison out of curiosity.

It still seems as if all of these examples in the most grand of scales have "suchness" implications on a individual scale. Some what like the fractal nature, microcosm/macrocosm aspect of phenomenon.

It makes me wonder if every mind is what is meant to be considered a world system because it interprets the totality of the world system for that individual but this is derivative of my contemplation of the various meanings within the LS not any direct teaching or commentary.

[Minobu]

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/K/14

And your point?

even a gazzillion infinite kalpas multiplied by a gazzillion trillion is still a finite number and nowhere near the length time when samsara started.

Your whole Eternal Buddha Sakyamuni thing is also way off the mark..

anyway..it doesn't matter i know what i know...

but i do like when you explained what it was like pre desire setting in

hmmmm

Honbutsu (本佛) refers to Shakyamuni Buddha as he is revealed in the Original Gate teaching (honmon 本門).

Original Enlightenment (hongaku 本覚) is the teaching that we embody enlightenment as-is. The caveat is that ordinary sentient beings are not aware of this original state and mistake it as something else, which leads to suffering, samsara, etc. The distinguishing characteristic of a buddha is that they see things as they really are, while sentient beings do not.

yuppers...you said it.


Yo Malcolm what about that text on there has always been buddhas and buddhas...or is that Malcolmism ?

[Caoimhghín]

Do you QQ and Malcolm have some inane anti Nichiren agenda here , cause it appears that way ...

have fun with that

From here, it just looks like you are manifesting deep paranoia.

Also, what you said to me literally makes absolutely no sense.

[Caoimhghín]

The whole issue can be solved right here, right now.

Malcolm, if you dare venture back into the thread, if you ever spoke on DharmaWheel about a prior state when beings were fed on celestial foodstuffs described as made of light, you would have been talking about the various foodstuffs the degenerating beings ate successively, including the materials that coalesced on the surface of the ancient Ocean, right? The Aggaññasutta has all of this in it. I think a citation of the Aggaññasutta or parallel material is being misremembered and misconstrued.

[Minobu]

The whole issue can be solved right here, right now.

Malcolm, if you dare venture back into the thread, if you ever spoke on DharmaWheel about a prior state when beings were fed on celestial foodstuffs described as made of light, you would have been talking about the various foodstuffs the degenerating beings ate successively, including the materials that coalesced on the surface of the ancient Ocean, right? The Aggaññasutta has all of this in it. I think a citation of the Aggaññasutta or parallel material is being misremembered and misconstrued.

you talk to me about being paranoid.

well you are like one of those people that respond to things only in your head..

twice now in this thread you responded to me with stuff unrelated to anything i said.

Malcolm never agreed or said anything about Beings of Light who feed on light.

he knocked me big time...this user i believer his name smjc..he came to the thread and showed there is such a thing.

even the gakki back n the seventies talked about it.

so like please if you are gonna post off me or talk about me ..please just keep to what i am saying..not what you want me to have said..

same thing with malcolm he used emptiness as a segue to something that i was not talking about...

i might not be totally articulate and my grammar is like a nightmare...but if you read me you can understand at least what i am saying..

and i will tell you one more thing...

lie to me lie to the world but do yourself a favour and never lie to yourself.




I've said all there is to say...i will dig out this book and photo the whole thing this Rinpoche wrote about beings of light and slowley how they started to build the desire realms...

You do realize all of samsara is created from Karma...the air the trees the paint on your walls ..all here due to karma...

Now thank the gods and the enlightened ones for they are like sort of creators that have made this place some sort of beautiful instead of all noxious fumes and shit...

you feel that ?

[Caoimhghín]

so like please if you are gonna post off me or talk about me ..please just keep to what i am saying..not what you want me to have said..

I don't find you the easiest to read. I thought that the reason you called Malcolm a troll was because he wasn't being honest or wasn't being consistent when he explained that there is no first Buddha because there have always been Buddhas. "Ādibuddha" isn't a particular person in linear time. Were you not going on a while ago about how Malcolm had supposedly said to you that there was a pre-ignorance state to the cosmos and was refusing to talk further about it? If you don't think I'm remembering correctly, you can say so.

Only Beings of Light existed...thats what best describes them...desire crept in ...thus Samsara snowballed into this

The Aggaññasutta is the only sutta that deals with the origins of the kāmadhātu that has any details like you are positing in your original enlightenment riffs. Maybe someone explained the sūtra to you a long time ago? Either way, if you don't want me responding to you, I'll stop directly quoting you in my posts and instead, if I think there's been a mistake, I'll just make a general comment.

I promise not to bring up the Aggaññasutta anymore. I've said my piece to do with it.

[Minobu]

so like please if you are gonna post off me or talk about me ..please just keep to what i am saying..not what you want me to have said..

I don't find you the easiest to read. I thought that the reason you called Malcolm a troll was because he wasn't being honest or wasn't being consistent when he explained that there is no first Buddha because there have always been Buddhas. "Ādibuddha" isn't a particular person in linear time. Were you not going on a while ago about how Malcolm had supposedly said to you that there was a pre-ignorance state to the cosmos and was refusing to talk further about it? If you don't think I'm remembering correctly, you can say so.

Only Beings of Light existed...thats what best describes them...desire crept in ...thus Samsara snowballed into this

The Aggaññasutta is the only sutta that deals with the origins of the kāmadhātu that has any details like you are positing in your original enlightenment riffs. Maybe someone explained the sūtra to you a long time ago? Either way, if you don't want me responding to you, I'll stop directly quoting you in my posts and instead, if I think there's been a mistake, I'll just make a general comment.

I promise not to bring up the Aggaññasutta anymore. I've said my piece to do with it.

I called him a troll due to him saying there has always been buddhas and buddhas...in a thread which is dealing with a Nichiren issue...

and there is no text that will confirm this so he is trolling...I've asked him a few times...forever if you consider Hawking's theory of time...lol...

so stop assuming what people are saying...i'm sure malcolm heard me so thats all that is important...

you being a Tendai priest and all should realize that Original enlightenment comes from you guys which Nichiren adopted and Nichiren shoShu tweeked.


sort of worried that narwhal might lock down thread soon ...
so maybe stop this banter.

[Minobu]

i don't know if its a coincidence or a(said in me best Tony montana voice ) " How you say....I'm a Parranoy .

but just when i make head way on some guy that is like on my case about something bingo the thread gets locked and i'm left holding soggy newspapers.

[Caoimhghín]

you being a Tendai priest and all

I am not a Tendai priest. Look back through your PM's to me and mine back and you will find that I relayed that I did not become a priest and am not a Tendai Buddhist.

[Queequeg]

even a gazzillion infinite kalpas multiplied by a gazzillion trillion is still a finite number and nowhere near the length time when samsara started.

You've gone to your stupid place. I'll leave you down that hole. Its one of those moods you go through. See ya on the other side, bud.