The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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LastLegend
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by LastLegend »

tkp67 wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:46 pm Nichiren teaches the following seeming contradiction from the Lotus.

“enjoy peace and security in their present existence.” + “Since hatred and jealousy toward this sutra abound even when the Thus Come One is in the world, how much more will this be so after his passing?”

When one has reached the stage of buddhahood in present form one enjoys peace and security while encountering hated and jealousy.
The precept of the diamond chalice is the precept that is impossible to break, like the diamond chalice. It is mentioned in the Brahmā Net Sutra, and Dengyō interprets the Buddha nature or the true aspect of all phenomena as the diamond chalice; this precept thus means to embrace the Lotus Sutra. In Nichiren Daishonin’s Buddhism, it means to embrace the Gohonzon.
You should tell them so and reproach them by citing the “Treasure Tower” chapter’s explanation of what “observing the precepts and practicing [the rules of discipline]”35 truly means. Then, pausing briefly, tell them that the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, the heart of the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, contain the benefit amassed through the countless practices and meritorious deeds of all Buddhas throughout the three existences. Then, how can these five characters not include the benefits obtained by observing all of the Buddhas’ precepts? Once the practitioner embraces this perfectly endowed wonderful precept, he cannot break it, even if he should try. It is therefore called the precept of the diamond chalice.36 Only by p.482observing this wonderful precept have the Buddhas of the three existences become Buddhas endowed with the three bodies—the Dharma body, the reward body, and the manifested body, which are each without beginning or end. The Great Teacher T’ien-t’ai wrote of this, “In the various teachings, he [the Buddha] kept this secret and did not transmit it.”37 Now in the Latter Day of the Law, any person—whether wise or ignorant, priest or lay believer, or of high or low position—who embraces Myoho-renge-kyo and practices it in accordance with the Buddha’s teaching, cannot fail to gain the fruit of Buddhahood. For precisely this reason, in reference to the votary of the Lotus Sutra in the impure and evil age after the Buddha’s passing, the sutra declares, “Such a person assuredly and without doubt will attain the Buddha way.”
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd- ... 57#para-74

The Teaching, Practice, and Proof
The method is different across all traditions, but the teaching is still Mahayana.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:09 am
illarraza wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:22 pm ...
Yeah, I agree the issue is attachment. What I meant was that at first we should understand how desire is a poison, why it has so much power over our minds... (That’s why they call it the three poisons.) Then, the Mahayana training is to practice nonattachment with desire (ie. Seeing our desires and their objects as Shunyata).

You’re absolutely right about attachment. And learning to see the negative force of desire (why they call it poison) will help to recognize what is attachment and what is untainted by attachment. Learning to discern is very important. If we don’t have this wisdom, we start embracing our desires before we have the power of non-attachment
How does attachment work in mind? 😄 The air and space right in front of our eyes...why is there crap going on in the background!?
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Budai »

LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:30 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:09 am
illarraza wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:22 pm ...
Yeah, I agree the issue is attachment. What I meant was that at first we should understand how desire is a poison, why it has so much power over our minds... (That’s why they call it the three poisons.) Then, the Mahayana training is to practice nonattachment with desire (ie. Seeing our desires and their objects as Shunyata).

You’re absolutely right about attachment. And learning to see the negative force of desire (why they call it poison) will help to recognize what is attachment and what is untainted by attachment. Learning to discern is very important. If we don’t have this wisdom, we start embracing our desires before we have the power of non-attachment
How does attachment work in mind? 😄 The air and space right in front of our eyes...why is there crap going on in the background!?
There is the idea that the mind is actually located within the heart. I had a discussion about this with some Buddhists actually, and even in some cultures the word “mind” and “heart” are the same word. So it’s really our entire Life-Force/consciousness that contains the mind, whether deluded or Buddha-Mind, and that is in our hearts, then spread out throughout the body.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citta#Usage
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:47 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:30 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:09 am

Yeah, I agree the issue is attachment. What I meant was that at first we should understand how desire is a poison, why it has so much power over our minds... (That’s why they call it the three poisons.) Then, the Mahayana training is to practice nonattachment with desire (ie. Seeing our desires and their objects as Shunyata).

You’re absolutely right about attachment. And learning to see the negative force of desire (why they call it poison) will help to recognize what is attachment and what is untainted by attachment. Learning to discern is very important. If we don’t have this wisdom, we start embracing our desires before we have the power of non-attachment
How does attachment work in mind? 😄 The air and space right in front of our eyes...why is there crap going on in the background!?
There is the idea that the mind is actually located within the heart. I had a discussion about this with some Buddhists actually, and even in some cultures the word “mind” and “heart” are the same word. So it’s really our entire Life-Force/consciousness that contains the mind, whether deluded or Buddha-Mind, and that is in our hearts, then spread out throughout the body.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citta#Usage
We're not talking about the location of the mind... we're talking about what is attachment.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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How is attachment possible? I would say because of desire, which is the root of all suffering. That was the first Buddhist truth I heard in this life and I have held onto it since. Why is there desire? A pure mind is not constructed on the building blocks of desire or former desire. So desire is there in certain people because there is a craving to live independently from one’s Buddha-Mind and Nature, because people decide to attach themselves to things, emotions, and people, without Maitri that must be coupled with Right View, and the Noble Eightfold Path being respected. Living beings make the wrong decisions because of the factors that come from the impediments while walking the Buddha Way, which is a Perfect Way, all the while they may find certain aspects of a Right Livelihood too difficult, and choose the seemingly quick and easy path of craving, which can sometimes lead to destruction, because effort is a real thing we must respect that we need to help people with, and help them in their effort to become Buddhas, and help each other achieve Enlightenment in the Way Buddha taught. We have to be kind, and help people not give into fear. The Buddha is fearless and we must turn to His words, Sangha, Dharma, and Teachings. Om.

Om Mani Padme Hum.

Namaste.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Last edited by Budai on Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by LastLegend »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:47 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:30 am
SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:09 am

Yeah, I agree the issue is attachment. What I meant was that at first we should understand how desire is a poison, why it has so much power over our minds... (That’s why they call it the three poisons.) Then, the Mahayana training is to practice nonattachment with desire (ie. Seeing our desires and their objects as Shunyata).

You’re absolutely right about attachment. And learning to see the negative force of desire (why they call it poison) will help to recognize what is attachment and what is untainted by attachment. Learning to discern is very important. If we don’t have this wisdom, we start embracing our desires before we have the power of non-attachment
How does attachment work in mind? 😄 The air and space right in front of our eyes...why is there crap going on in the background!?
There is the idea that the mind is actually located within the heart. I had a discussion about this with some Buddhists actually, and even in some cultures the word “mind” and “heart” are the same word. So it’s really our entire Life-Force/consciousness that contains the mind, whether deluded or Buddha-Mind, and that is in our hearts, then spread out throughout the body.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citta#Usage
I don’t buy that nature mind is in the heart. Quite hard to see ‘layers’ of mind.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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SilenceMonkey wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:52 am
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:47 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:30 am

How does attachment work in mind? 😄 The air and space right in front of our eyes...why is there crap going on in the background!?
There is the idea that the mind is actually located within the heart. I had a discussion about this with some Buddhists actually, and even in some cultures the word “mind” and “heart” are the same word. So it’s really our entire Life-Force/consciousness that contains the mind, whether deluded or Buddha-Mind, and that is in our hearts, then spread out throughout the body.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citta#Usage
We're not talking about the location of the mind... we're talking about what is attachment.
If we observe closely, mind acts to get, then followed by thoughts memories and what nots.

So even in the clearest empty sky (nature), as long as there is something that still distinguishes...this is the very problem. It’s still a mind phenomenon.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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If Buddha nature has a location then it has an appearance of birth and death quite contrary to ‘no location’ mentioned in Mahaprajnaparamita Sutras.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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When that distinguishes is Truly extinguished...empty nature is Truly seen...then we are considered earth Bodhisattvas :lol:. It’s that simple :lol: .
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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Supposed in the clearest empty sky...that’s our nature, how self does form or arise from that clearest empty sky? :lol: How does appearance arise? Before appearance arises in the clearest empty sky, what arises? :lol:

Not taking about physical object...just our mind.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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Still talking about extinction...what goes into extinction :lol: ?
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:22 am Still talking about extinction...what goes into extinction :lol: ?
First off, what becomes extinct?

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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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Still talking about extinction...what goes into extinction
Confinement and suffering.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:30 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:22 am Still talking about extinction...what goes into extinction :lol: ?
First off, what becomes extinct?

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
That’s for each individual to answer themselves.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:30 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:22 am Still talking about extinction...what goes into extinction :lol: ?
First off, what becomes extinct?

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Extinction is the wrong word. Nirvana means to go out. What goes out? The fire of suffering. Why? Its fuel, affliction, is no longer available. Pretty straightforward.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

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Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:05 am
Still talking about extinction...what goes into extinction
Confinement and suffering.
What suffers? :lol:
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Budai »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:57 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:30 am
LastLegend wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:22 am Still talking about extinction...what goes into extinction :lol: ?
First off, what becomes extinct?

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Extinction is the wrong word. Nirvana means to go out. What goes out? The fire of suffering. Why? Its fuel, affliction, is no longer available. Pretty straightforward.
I don’t think it’s the wrong word. A fire that becomes extinct is much more powerfully to be gone out forever than a mere extinguishing. I know many Buddhist who use the word extinction, and I think Burton Watson was realized considering He was a Votary of the Lotus Sutra, having translated it for the entirety of SGI on behalf of Daisaku Ikeda, a translation Ikeda approves of, where this word “extinction” is drawn from. Ikeda draws from this translation using it’s language and text in His personal writings. I have no doubts about Ikeda’s Awakened Nature either. Now, provisionally, even the Awakened could be using the wrong words, but to me it is a word that perfectly makes sense, and as you aren’t a walking fire I think the use of metaphors is okay, and even if you were, the word “extinction” would work considering it implies a nonregressive ending of afflictions, and they don’t go “go anywhere” like the composites of a fire of a flame, though the chemical reaction is gone the chemicals are still there somewhere, in the true extinction of Buddhahood material life is gone forever. But both words work. :twothumbsup:

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Last edited by Budai on Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:01 pm
I don’t think it’s the wrong word.
Ok, I defer to your superior knowledge and mastery of primary Buddhist languages and tenet systems.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by LastLegend »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:01 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:57 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:30 am

First off, what becomes extinct?

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Extinction is the wrong word. Nirvana means to go out. What goes out? The fire of suffering. Why? Its fuel, affliction, is no longer available. Pretty straightforward.
I don’t think it’s the wrong word. A fire that becomes extinct is much more powerfully to be gone out forever than a mere extinguishing. I know many Buddhist who use the word extinction, and I think Burton Watson was realized considering He was a Votary of the Lotus Sutra, having translated it for the entirety of SGI on behalf of Daisaku Ikeda, a translation Ikeda approves of, where this word “extinction” is drawn from. Ikeda draws from this translation using it’s language and text in His personal writings. I have no doubts about Ikeda’s Awakened Nature either. Now, provisionally, even the Awakened could be using the wrong words, but to me it is a word that perfectly makes sense, and as you aren’t a walking fire I think the use of metaphors is okay, and even if you were, the word “extinction” would work considering it implies a nonregressive ending of afflictions, and they don’t go “go anywhere” like the composites of a fire of a flame, though the chemical reaction is gone the chemicals are still there somewhere, in the true extinction of Buddhahood material life is gone forever. But both words work. :twothumbsup:

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
Song of Enlightenment...

Who is without thoughts? For whom do they not arise?
If they truly do not arise, this is not non-arising.
Ask a mechanical wooden puppet,
If praying for Buddhahood and applying effort, will it be attained sooner or later?


Then...unborn



How many births? How many deaths?
Birth and death, on and on, without end,
After suddenly awakening to the unborn,24
Facing horror or insult, how can one feel worry or joy?



Extinction would be a Nirvana that is a distaste for Samsara...it’s very impossible to not encounter karma in the world we live in...the question is how awakened beings handle karma? This is why there is a difference between a Sravaka and Bodhisattva.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Giovanni »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:15 pm
Könchok Chödrak wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:01 pm
I don’t think it’s the wrong word.
Ok, I defer to your superior knowledge and mastery of primary Buddhist languages and tenet systems.
:lol:
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