The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

reiun
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by reiun »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:27 pm
One needs to rely on newer translations, if one is not inclined to learn languages.
Well, certainly, you must be very proud of your linguistic accomplishments. I'm not sure if you understand, though, how such advice comes off.
PeterC
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by PeterC »

reiun wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:00 am Good to know that nonwestern=non-scholarly. But then that raises the issue of questioning historical, scholarly works from that perspective. Certainly this is not an issue of false humility on your part, but without lines of specific attribution, and a rationale why texts are bad only because they are old and well-established, a question may arise.
Nothing Malcolm said should be viewed as dismissing the work of earlier translators. The first translators working in an unfamiliar field have a hugely difficult task - it's like walking into a dark room, feeling your way around and telling people what it looks like. The ability to speak a language is equivalent to being able to walk and feel. But you are still a long way away from understanding why, for instance, the furniture is laid out in a certain way.

If you're going to, for instance, translate Chinese Buddhist texts into English, understanding classical Chinese is only the starting point. You need to have a functional understanding of sanskrit and how the translations into Chinese were done, what choices were made on terminology, what concepts were imported/paralleled from pre-existing Chinese philosophy, etc. Then, you need to know what doctrines the original Sanskrit was referring to, and what novel doctrines originated in China, before you can understand what the text is saying about those doctrines. Then, you make choices about what words you use to convey all of that in English or whatever other language you're translating into. But if you're the first person doing this, and you're writing for an audience who doesn't have any of this background, how do you explain your choices, when your audience doesn't even know what you're referring to? It's really, really hard. Later translators can at least refer to what choices prior translators made, what the terms refer to in their context, and explain why they made their own choices. So translation is really a cumulative exercise, where we collectively develop a better understanding over time. But often translators won't explain their choices in detail, particularly if they're going for a more loose / poetic rendering, so the reader has a difficult time seeing what exactly the translator has done.

I used the example of Chinese texts, and those are relatively speaking quite easy, since they're heavily studied, the process for sinicizing sanskrit technical terms is well understood, etc. When you get into more obscure areas, it becomes exponentially more difficult. Take Dzogchen, where Malcolm primarily works. Much of the fundamental material is still untranslated - Malcolm is actually working on some important parts of that. But even if you speak Tibetan, to really understand what the texts are saying, you need a *lot* of explanation from teachers - which they won't give casually, even getting a reading transmission can be a big deal. And some of these texts are huge and extremely complex - sometimes there aren't many lamas that can explain them very well.

So where does that leave, for example, a Dzogchen practitioner who doesn't speak Tibetan? Well, the right long-term solution is to learn Tibetan. But at a minimum, you need to know the technical vocabulary in the original language, and know what it refers to in Sanskrit, so that you can relate those terms to what you read in translations - otherwise you're pretty much lost. Then you need to get advice on which translations to read, which is pretty easy - people frequently ask here for suggestions of translations of specific texts.

There isn't a hard cutoff after which translations become reliable. Some fields are more established than others, but even that isn't a guarantee. For instance, the Pali canon is extremely well-understood, but that didn't stop a major publisher recently putting out a poetic butchering of it that was rapidly condemned, and often the most popular older translations become entrenched. This is something even Xuan Zang had to deal with - he was frustrated with a number of the choices Kumarajiva made, but his alternatives didn't all catch on.

Unlike JD, I think poetic translations are, frankly, counter-productive. They attract the more uninformed readers who seize on impressive-sounding english words, and try to discern the meaning from them. This is exactly what you should *not* be doing with a translation. If they get casual readers interested in the dharma, sure, that's good, but overall they're dangerous.

Finally, there is always the option of just opting out of this - just becoming the sort of practitioner that gets instructions from the teacher, does that to the letter, and doesn't get into the philosophy at all. One can absolutely achieve results purely through experiential realization. Whether that's a good or a bad approach for western students is a matter for debate. But it's an option, and some traditions favor it.
amanitamusc
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by amanitamusc »

reiun wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:21 am In fact, an academic, insofar as holding a degree in his field, and having published. What to make of this
Not much when it comes to Dzogchen where practice of the subject is paramount if you are translating.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by amanitamusc »

reiun wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:08 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:27 pm
One needs to rely on newer translations, if one is not inclined to learn languages.
Well, certainly, you must be very proud of your linguistic accomplishments. I'm not sure if you understand, though, how such advice comes off.
Malcolm's statement is just common sense.Your post on the other hand is truly daft but understandable since your most active topic is "Music Time"
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

amanitamusc wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:33 am
reiun wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:08 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:27 pm
One needs to rely on newer translations, if one is not inclined to learn languages.
Well, certainly, you must be very proud of your linguistic accomplishments. I'm not sure if you understand, though, how such advice comes off.
Malcolm's statement is just common sense.Your post on the other hand is truly daft but understandable since your most active topic is "Music Time"
Hey hey, let's be nice.

I actually see Malcolm's comment as generous. Many of us don't want to spend the time learning a language. In that case, knowing that newer translations are generally more reliable than old translations is of great help. And knowing there may be more inconsistencies and flaws in older translations is also very good to know. I don't see any pride in what he said at all, he was just stating a fact. (A fact for our benefit.)

I think Malcolm is like a double edged sword. He doesn't spend much time beating around the bush to make people feel good, but gets right to the point. I've also experienced the brunt of his bluntness, and it was often a bit painful. But if what he is saying is true, then it is good. The uncomfortable way he might come across can also be a gift to your practice. Patience, endurance, courage, wisdom, letting go. So on one edge of the sword, he gives you accurate information. On the other edge, you can either choose to see pride in his words or you can choose to see generosity, patience, many years of study and experience in the buddhist world.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Stay away from ad homs please, c'mon.

Anyway, the way I tried to handle this question with the few texts I've studied over the years (and it's just a handful) is to read multiple translations, figure out which terms seem to be most in conflict, then dig deeper, often asking teachers about specific meanings of words.

Sometimes I can get very specific definitions of words by asking my teacher - subtleties of meaning that I wouldn't have access to otherwise.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Malcolm
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Malcolm »

reiun wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:08 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:27 pm
One needs to rely on newer translations, if one is not inclined to learn languages.
Well, certainly, you must be very proud of your linguistic accomplishments. I'm not sure if you understand, though, how such advice comes off.
The beings of the six realms all see water differently, some as nectar, some as boiling metal. :shrug:
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by narhwal90 »

My zen group is studying a commentary on the genjo koan right now, we follow along with several different translations of the g.k. Sometimes the differences are more helpful than the similarities.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by LastLegend »

Words in different languages carry variations of meanings...in Vietnamese Buddhism, “Đại Tịch Diệt” means “Great Death.” But what died? That’s a whole debate.

In Vietnamese Zen, seeing nature is synonymous to “Great Death.” Another way to express it is “Chứng” means witness as in see with our eyes and caught with our own hands. I don’t know if realization is equivalent to “Great Death” because realization denotes in the process of becoming aware...it’s not yet complete.

The word extinction denotes an extinction (of Dinosaurs) that never return...this is quite weird that truly awakened beings still have their skandhas in the mundane world.

Then people say the cause has ceased, but what is the cause?

I think don’t see anything wrong with using layman English words as long as an explanation is provided.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by LastLegend »

There are skandhas and karma...the skandhas seem to be the agent of creating and sustaining karma. To say the opposite of ignorance is simply to be aware is already taken care of the ignorance...it isn’t so. Even if ignorance is accurate defined which isn’t, despite translations of suttas and sutras.
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reiun
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by reiun »

amanitamusc wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:33 am Your post on the other hand is truly daft but understandable since your most active topic is "Music Time"
"amanitamusc". Oh! Read your name wrong the first time, but I've got it now. Thought it said,"I'm anti music". :oops:

Music Time is by far the most popular thread here at 183 pages and 461,212 views and counting. Audiophiles and musicians like me would naturally gravitate there. Music is full of life, and has, to some, an obvious connection to Buddhist (zen) practice through its use of improvisation, chanting, etc. (Side notes: When I visited Shasta Abbey of Jiyu Kennet Roshi in the early 70's, they chanted sutras in Gregorian mode! And at Dai Bosatsu Zendo, we were lucky to have the acclaimed shakuhachi musician Ronnie Nyogetsu Reishin Seldin as a member and concert giver.)

If you only noted my affinity for this thread but not any actual posts, here is one just for you, which I posted back in February. Perhaps you are already familiar with it? Ragas are a "tonal framework for improvisation". Note the rapport of the musicians, the exquisite interplay and blend of instruments, and the joy of audience and performers alike. I hope you might enjoy it.

Ravi Shankar at Monterey Pop (June, 1967)
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Minobu »

And the nightmare continues
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by PeterC »

Many things from the 60s aren’t quite the same without the drugs
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Minobu
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Minobu »

what is this need to argue and play mean?
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Minobu wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:19 pm And the nightmare continues
One person's nightmare is another person's comedy.
Malcolm
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Malcolm »

PeterC wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:52 pm Many things from the 60s aren’t quite the same without the drugs
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

The unanswered questions (Skt. avyākṛta-vastu; P. avyākata-vastu; T. lung du ma bstan pa), or indeterminate questions, refer to a set of metaphysical questions that Buddha refused to answer. These questions are referred to as avyākṛta (P. avyākata), meaning "indeterminate", "unacertainable", "unaswered", etc.
https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki ... _questions


There appear to be various lists of them. Among one such list are the following:


A Realized One exists after death?
A Realized One doesn’t exist after death?
A Realized One both exists and doesn’t exist after death?
A Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death?


So if we grant this authority, it seems like exactly what goes on in Nirvana/Paranirvana is none of our business.
"One should cultivate contemplation in one’s foibles. The foibles are like fish, and contemplation is like fishing hooks. If there are no fish, then the fishing hooks have no use. The bigger the fish is, the better the result we will get. As long as the fishing hooks keep at it, all foibles will eventually be contained and controlled at will." -Zhiyi

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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by illarraza »

"How does attachment work in mind? 😄 The air and space right in front of our eyes...why is there crap going on in the background!?
[/quote]

Chanting Namu Myoho renge kyo, sooner or later in this very lifetime, one will become a truly wise man. Nichiren teaches regarding what constiutes a wise man:"Because they are not carried away by the eight winds: prosperity, decline, disgrace, honor, praise, censure, suffering, and pleasure. They are neither elated by prosperity nor grieved by decline. The heavenly gods will surely protect one who is unbending* before the eight winds."

* Or, if I may be so bold as to create a near synonym for "one who is unbending before the eight winds", one who is not attached to the eight winds."

For me personally, it is no longer a big deal whether experiencing prosperity, decline (in health or wealth for example), being disgraced (or justly or unjustly criticized) or honored, praised or censured, suffering (in pain or loss of loved ones for example), or pleasure.

Not dwelling either on my fortune nor apparent misfortune, I am not attched and continue to strengthen my faith and chant Namu myoho renge kyo to the Gohonzon.

Off the top of my head, the worst thing I could experience would be the loss of my beloved wife and children. Certainly I would grieve and after the initial months, though I might shed tears from time to time, I would continue on the path.

Nichiren writes in the Opening of the Eyes:

"Whether tempted by good or threatened by evil, if one casts aside the Lotus Sutra, one destines oneself for hell. Here I will make a great vow. Though I might be offered the rulership of Japan if I would only abandon the Lotus Sutra, accept the teachings of the Meditation Sutra, and look forward to rebirth in the Pure Land, though I might be told that my father and mother will have their heads cut off if I do not recite the Nembutsu—whatever obstacles I might encounter, so long as persons of wisdom do not prove my teachings to be false, I will never yield! All other troubles are no more to me than dust before the wind."

Therefore, were persons of wisdom to prove Nichiren's teachings false, he would change his teachings and affiliation, thus demonstrating that he was not even attached to his own teachings.

The purpose of Nichiren's and our forceful practice (shakubuku) is to refute a persons' attachment to provisional teachings and false views.

Mark
Malcolm
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by Malcolm »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 12:28 am The unanswered questions (Skt. avyākṛta-vastu; P. avyākata-vastu; T. lung du ma bstan pa), or indeterminate questions, refer to a set of metaphysical questions that Buddha refused to answer. These questions are referred to as avyākṛta (P. avyākata), meaning "indeterminate", "unacertainable", "unaswered", etc.
https://encyclopediaofbuddhism.org/wiki ... _questions


There appear to be various lists of them. Among one such list are the following:


A Realized One exists after death?
A Realized One doesn’t exist after death?
A Realized One both exists and doesn’t exist after death?
A Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death?


So if we grant this authority, it seems like exactly what goes on in Nirvana/Paranirvana is none of our business.
Actually, when something has ceased, attributions of existence or nonexistence to that are inappropriate, since as the Buddha points out:

One who has reached the end
has no criterion
by which anyone would say that —
for him it doesn't exist.
When all phenomena are done away with,
all means of speaking
are done away with as well.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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Re: The Relationship between Nirvana and Buddhahood: what constitutes a true extinction?

Post by tkp67 »

Now I expound the truth for you—
what you have attained is not extinction.
For the sake of the comprehensive wisdom of the buddha
you must expend great effort and diligence.
When you have gained such buddha attributes
as comprehensive wisdom and the ten powers,
and are endowed with the thirty-two features,
then this will be true extinction.
The buddhas in their capacity as leaders
preach nirvana to provide a rest.
But when they know you have become rested,
they lead you onward to the buddha wisdom.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/7

Parable of the Phantom City
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