The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

[narhwal90]

I'll leave you folks to your ways.

A fair point. On the whole I'm not disagreeing with your assesment Q- SG study seems a lot like lego's to me today, and my focus is metalworking. I find their study material to be a useful place to orient vocabulary and context for more precise searches elsewhere.

[tkp67]

Sure. But then again, how hard are we going to start grasping interpretations we are now sure are the most correct?

I am sure plenty of examples of stagnation are seen in any school or tradition one cares to observe.

is that self derived or teacher taught?

Both, I expect. I've done plenty of stagnation myself trying it solo. From talking to the roshi I'm working with, there are plenty of examples of the other case.

A roshi teaches Shakyamuni's enlightenment from the perspective of the Lotus Sutra?

I validated my position with a teacher who practices Nichiren buddhism. I also introduced him to the forums so he could proof my position. He has been given access to the main temple on dozens of occasions.

I did my due diligence here. I also have spent my life applying equanimity, compassion and loving kindness through a variety of expedients. Weathering a wealth of suffering for the purpose of protecting others from the cause and effect is where I spent a grand portion of that time. The founder of buddhism did the same. This is why Nichiren teaches doubt and disparaging as being detrimental to grasping the Lotus. He doesn't dismiss the traditions at face value but rather he criticizes their lack of recognition of one another.

That was the whole reason Nichiren was able to propogate the Lotus. Various people whose teachings could be traced back to Shakyamuni held the teachings in contest. Shakyamuni desired that the Lotus be taught at such a time.

This is why when someone balks at the superiority of Shakyamuni's enlightenment it is proof they are attached to cause and not invested in the effect.

They aren't examining it from the theoretical position of his enlightenment without beginning, but from the provision of this existence. It isn't about individual superiority but superiority in realization. There is no blemish that exists in Shakyamnui's enlightenment nor does the true aspect vary due to conditions. The superiority is in the body of potential benefactors. I.E. All sentient beings. This is what he saw, this is what he said.

[Malcolm]

There is no blemish that exists in Shakyamnui's enlightenment...

There are no blemishes in the awakening of any buddha. The awakening of all buddhas is just the same.

[Giovanni]

is that self derived or teacher taught?

Both, I expect. I've done plenty of stagnation myself trying it solo. From talking to the roshi I'm working with, there are plenty of examples of the other case.

A roshi teaches Shakyamuni's enlightenment from the perspective of the Lotus Sutra?

I validated my position with a teacher who practices Nichiren buddhism. I also introduced him to the forums so he could proof my position. He has been given access to the main temple on dozens of occasions.

I did my due diligence here. I also have spent my life applying equanimity, compassion and loving kindness through a variety of expedients. Weathering a wealth of suffering for the purpose of protecting others from the cause and effect is where I spent a grand portion of that time. The founder of buddhism did the same. This is why Nichiren teaches doubt and disparaging as being detrimental to grasping the Lotus. He doesn't dismiss the traditions at face value but rather he criticizes their lack of recognition of one another.

That was the whole reason Nichiren was able to propogate the Lotus. Various people whose teachings could be traced back to Shakyamuni held the teachings in contest. Shakyamuni desired that the Lotus be taught at such a time.

This is why when someone balks at the superiority of Shakyamuni's enlightenment it is proof they are attached to cause and not invested in the effect.

They aren't examining it from the theoretical position of his enlightenment without beginning, but from the provision of this existence. It isn't about individual superiority but superiority in realization. There is no blemish that exists in Shakyamnui's enlightenment nor does the true aspect vary due to conditions. The superiority is in the body of potential benefactors. I.E. All sentient beings. This is what he saw, this is what he said.

“ protecting others from the cause and effect”. I don’t understand. Are you saying that you can prevent others from the result of their karma?.

[Minobu]

This is why when someone balks at the superiority of Shakyamuni's enlightenment it is proof they are attached to cause and not invested in the effect.

indeed it is worrisome that some Nichiren Demoniantions end up somehow getting some message through where they defile Lord Guru Sakyamuni the Eternal Buddha ,

this whole he is a defunct or the use of harsher words is troubling. Junk buddha comes to mind.

Especially for me now that I am coming to terms with my realizing Bodhisattva Jogyo is an emanation Of Lord Sakayamuni Buddha.

[narhwal90]

is that self derived or teacher taught?

Both, I expect. I've done plenty of stagnation myself trying it solo. From talking to the roshi I'm working with, there are plenty of examples of the other case.

A roshi teaches Shakyamuni's enlightenment from the perspective of the Lotus Sutra?

I validated my position with a teacher who practices Nichiren buddhism. I also introduced him to the forums so he could proof my position. He has been given access to the main temple on dozens of occasions.

I did my due diligence here. I also have spent my life applying equanimity, compassion and loving kindness through a variety of expedients. Weathering a wealth of suffering for the purpose of protecting others from the cause and effect is where I spent a grand portion of that time. The founder of buddhism did the same. This is why Nichiren teaches doubt and disparaging as being detrimental to grasping the Lotus. He doesn't dismiss the traditions at face value but rather he criticizes their lack of recognition of one another.

That was the whole reason Nichiren was able to propogate the Lotus. Various people whose teachings could be traced back to Shakyamuni held the teachings in contest. Shakyamuni desired that the Lotus be taught at such a time.

This is why when someone balks at the superiority of Shakyamuni's enlightenment it is proof they are attached to cause and not invested in the effect.

They aren't examining it from the theoretical position of his enlightenment without beginning, but from the provision of this existence. It isn't about individual superiority but superiority in realization. There is no blemish that exists in Shakyamnui's enlightenment nor does the true aspect vary due to conditions. The superiority is in the body of potential benefactors. I.E. All sentient beings. This is what he saw, this is what he said.

Don't know tk, thats a lot of words about what is and what isn't. The roshi I'm working with doesn't work from the Lotus Sutra directly, though given Dogen's respect for it, we do spend time in its neighborhood. He works from more classically Soto texts and is not much interested in validation or not. In my hearing he has never yet disparaged another tradition, Buddhist or not, and has spent time studying if not participating in many.

[Minobu]

Yo Narwhal the Roshi you refer to ,is this the Same Roshi Leonard Cohen spent time with in California?
Saw a documentary and he and Roshi were together in Cohen's house ,where they seemed very close.

[Genjo Conan]

Cohen studied with Joshu Sasaki Roshi, who died iirc about ten years ago, so I'm doubtful it's the same guy.

[Minobu]

Cohen studied with Joshu Sasaki Roshi, who died iirc about ten years ago, so I'm doubtful it's the same guy.

So is Roshi like a title of a master then ?

Cohen devoted a few years up there . you could really see how close they were and his absolute respect for the man.

on a side note ...you might recall in the early days of Transcendental Meditation which i took at age 15 they promised it would lead to enlightenment in 20 years.
then when i joined the gakki at age 20 they promised the same , it even was in a song about Ikeda.
do your gongyo early in the morning
Daimoku late at night
gonna follow president Ikeda
make the planet peaceful and bright
shakkabukku is the way to kosen rufu

keep chantin keep chanting we just got twenty years ago..


So when i first heard cohen's song Manhatten and the line

"They sentenced me to twenty years of boredom , for trying to change the system from within "

guess what popped into me head ?

[Genjo Conan]

Cohen studied with Joshu Sasaki Roshi, who died iirc about ten years ago, so I'm doubtful it's the same guy.

So is Roshi like a title of a master then ?

Roshi's literal translation is something like "old teacher" or "old master." Traditionally it was used to refer to a senior Zen teacher who was considered to have achieved a high level of realization (I think in Rinzai it was the title conferred when someone received inka, but I'm not 100% clear on Rinzai traditions). In some Western Zen centers, the title has become a watered-down honorific for any Zen teacher, so I think its use is increasingly uninformative.

[narhwal90]

Yo Narwhal the Roshi you refer to ,is this the Same Roshi Leonard Cohen spent time with in California?
Saw a documentary and he and Roshi were together in Cohen's house ,where they seemed very close.

My guy is not he- as others pointed out, its his title. The group variably uses "roshi", his dharma name, sometimes his english name, sometimes various pairs of them together

[Minobu]

Yo Narwhal the Roshi you refer to ,is this the Same Roshi Leonard Cohen spent time with in California?
Saw a documentary and he and Roshi were together in Cohen's house ,where they seemed very close.

My guy is not he- as others pointed out, its his title. The group variably uses "roshi", his dharma name, sometimes his english name, sometimes various pairs of them together

sounds very Zen...

i always recall Rinpoche saying he thought Zen was more appropriate for western students rather than Tantra.

I think meditation is very important. I let it slide and just chanted but lately i returned to using part of my day for meditation.

it's made a huge difference ..

[narhwal90]

I do both, last week has mostly been chanting/recitation; work being as it has been recently the gohonzon is doing a nice job of soaking up the aggravation- plus I just opened a new box of incense...

[illarraza]

By adopting the Lotus Sutra and ichinen-sanzen, Nichiren accepts the Lotus Sutra's 2nd chapter 10 Factors inherent in all phenomena; appearance, nature, entity, power, influence, internal cause, relation, latent effect, manifest effect, and their consistency from beginning to end. Accordingly, some of the various potentials and manifestions of the egg and the bird can be considered. By this view there is a potential for a bird in the egg.

Perhaps this could be viewed is an expedient, useful when considering questions of provisionality.

A birds egg contains nothing but liquid, yet by itself this develops into a beak, two eyes, and all the other parts which forma bird, and can fly into the sky". (MW vol , Letter to Nikke pg 259-260)

This happens by the processes of meiosis and mitosis. A Buddha is born through the process of following what the Buddha and Nichiren Daishonin taught.

A human being contains 46 chromosomes in every one of it's cells except in the sex cells which contain 23. When a sperm fertilizes an egg the 23 chromosomes from the male unite with the 23 chromosomes from the female to form 46 chromosomes. These 46 chromosome control the eventual shape, structure, and function of the human body. Normal chromosomes will beget a normal body "mind".

There are certain anomalous processes that occur within chromosomes. They are called deletions, translocations, inversions, additions and mutations. There are control mechanisms that help to prevent these processes from occurring and there are repair mechanisms that can reverse some of these abnormal processes after they occur.

The Lotus Sutra and Gosho (Law) and The Buddha unite with the faith and practice of the believer to control the "shape, structure, and function" of the believer's Buddhahood. These can be likened to chromosomes of faith.

Normal chromosomes can be likened to the correct Law, the correct Buddha, a correct faith, and a correct practice. All these normal or correct conditions must be present in order to attain Buddhahood in this lifetime. Abnormal chromosomes can be likened to an incorrect Law, any Buddha (or person) besides the Original Buddha, an incorrect faith and/or incorrect practice. Any or all of these abnormal "chromosomes" are present when one fails to attain Buddhahood in this life.

Just as deletions, inversions, translocations, additions, and mutations within chromasomes lead to various congenital defects or other diseases such as cancer, the same type of processes within the Buddhist believer leads to a life state other than Buddhahood. Nichiren states in the Kaimoku Sho,

"They will tear off the first part of the Sutra and stick it on the end, tear off the end and put it at the beginning, put the end and the beginning in the middle, and the beginning at the middle or end". This is analogous to inversions and translocations of the Law.

In The Supreme Leader Of The World, Nichiren states, "However they are alike in that they all abandoned Shakyamuni Buddha". This is analogous to deletion of the Original Buddha.

The Akimoto Gosho talks about four faults in a vessel (the vessel of our faith and practice) and explains that "The Lotus Sutra is the Dharma water of the Buddha's wisdom". Refusing to believe in or practice the Lotus Sutra or failing to believe in Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter of the Lotus Sutra is having an overturned vessel of faith and practice. This is analogous to having a mutation in one's faith or practice.

Correct faith and practice are like the enzymes that serve to maintain correct functioning, maintenance, and repair of chromosomes and lead to a good outcome [Buddhahood].

[Malcolm]

Just as deletions, inversions, translocations, additions, and mutations within chromasomes lead to various congenital defects or other diseases such as cancer...

They don't necessarily lead to congenital defects. Sometimes they lead to bipedalism, opposable thumbs, etc.

"They will tear off the first part of the Sutra and stick it on the end, tear off the end and put it at the beginning, put the end and the beginning in the middle, and the beginning at the middle or end". This is analogous to inversions and translocations of the Law.

Considering that the Saddharmapundarika Sūtra was already subject to emendations and alterations long before the time of Nichiren...It is not like the text never underwent evolution, expansion and so on, both in India and in China. The text we have now and that Nichiren had before him is not Kumarajiva's original translation.

Textual originalism is faulty method of jurisprudence, and it is also faulty method of religious exegesis.

[narhwal90]

Thread locked due to tone becoming uncivil, some posts have been moderated. Please contact a mod if you would like it unlocked to coninue on-topic conversation.