The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

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The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Budai »

In the excerpt from the Lotus Sutra below, here is what the Buddha says about His being Enlightened before Gaya, in the rest of the Chapter, which is a great and important read, He talks about how long He has been Enlightened. It is more than asamkhyas of kalpas according to His description, so many, many, many eons ago He became Enlightened as Bodhisattva Never Disparaging. Was that another way for Him to expound the Way, and was He already Enlightened then? Did He expound that He was just a Bodhisattva for those to follow His example, it’s not quite a little Law to delight that that is when He came to Enlightenment, but was it the first time? That is one question to ask, but it can be meditated on as secondary. My primary question is as is more than asamkhyas of kalpas in the future from that, as being about what was the difference for Buddha before and after Gaya? They are related questions though, but one must be answered to be built upon first.
”Good men, the Thus Come One observes how among living beings there are those who delight in a little Law, meager in virtue and heavy with defilement. For such persons I describe how in my youth I left my household and attained anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. But in truth the time since I attained Buddhahood is extremely long, as I have told you. It is simply that I use this expedient means to teach and convert living beings and cause them to enter the Buddha way. That is why I speak in this manner.

"Good men, the scriptures expounded by the Thus Come One are all for the purpose of saving and emancipating living beings. Sometimes I speak of myself, sometimes of others: sometimes I present myself, sometimes others; sometimes I show my own actions, sometimes those of others. All that I preach is true and not false.

...

"Because living beings have different natures, different desires, different actions, and different ways of thinking and making distinctions, and because I want to enable them to put down good roots, I employ a variety of causes and conditions, similes, parables, and phrases and preach different doctrines. This, the Buddha's work, I have never for a moment neglected.

"Thus, since I attained Buddhahood, an extremely long period of time has passed. My life span is an immeasurable number of asamkhya kalpas, and during that time I have constantly abided here without ever entering extinction. Good men, originally I practiced the bodhisattva way, and the life span that I acquired then has yet to come to an end but will last twice the number of years that have already passed. Now, however, although in fact I do not actually enter extinction, I announce that I am going to adopt the course of extinction. This is an expedient means which the Thus Come One uses to teach and convert living beings.
-Lotus Sutra, Chapter 16, The Life Span of the Tathagata

Before Gaya, during His ascetic practice, He was starving Himself, not drinking, not eating, taking a few breaths, meditating in a cave, one would hardly call this the Middle-Way being expressed openly. Before that His Path was not as arduous as when He reached His breaking point and accepted a bowl of rice from a woman and went on the Middle-Way. Before He was still seeming to be a learner, asking a lot of questions from various hermits and Sages, meditating, but also outdoing His Teachers and the other students, moving on from place to place because He had learned “all that He had to learn” from the various places He had traveled to to find information on Spiritual life. He outdid His Teachers until He embarked on a complete lonesome journey, and those ascetics that followed Him also engaged in difficult bodily practice that is generally not sponsored in Buddhism today. But in all of that there was a purpose.

But when He sat down at Gaya, He put it all together, He Transcended it all and found The Mystic Law of Supreme Perfect Enlightenment, and of Myoho Renge Kyo Awaken in Him. He came to Enlightenment again in that life, but that is only told to those who delight in the little Law. In reality, the Lotus Sutra and Gautama say that He was already Enlightened. So here is my question. What is the difference before and after Gaya for Buddha, if He was already Enlightened, and what are the next steps after Gaya? Does one continue to see just how blue the blue sky can be until they can see into other planets? Though they may pick up what those planets look like by their Omniscience?

At what age did Nichiren acheive an open Enlightenment? Was there such a moment? Is there such a thing written in His letters? What did Nichiren write about this subject? I read the Lotus Sutra a lot and I return every now and then to certain letters, and I remember that Nichiren said He was a Buddha, but in a certain letter He was saying that He still hopes to attain Buddhahood. So these are deep questions I am pondering. A Nichiren or Lotus Sutra Mahayana respecting perspective would be appreciated. If anyone has anything to add to this topic or any answers to any of my questions I would appreciate that. Thank you.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by markatex »

The Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha was enlightened all along. His enlightenment at Bodh Gaya, as well as his previous lives, were all expedients, teaching devices. He says in the Lotus Sutra that he is always considering how to lead all beings to Buddhahood. That’s what he’s been doing since the remotest past, before and after Bodh Gaya.

Nichiren spoke of himself as Jogyo Bodhisattva, the leader of the bodhisattvas who the Buddha charged with spreading the Lotus Sutra during the Age of Mappo.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:17 pm So here is my question. What is the difference before and after Gaya for Buddha, if He was already Enlightened, and what are the next steps after Gaya?
The twelve deeds of the Buddha, including his conception, leaving home, attaining buddhahood, and parinirvana, were all just a display to benefit sentient beings. Not only this, but his career as a bodhisattva likewise was merely a display to benefit sentient beings.

The Buddha had attained buddhahood countless myriads of eons beforehand.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Budai »

Well you answered all my questions very clearly. I would like to ask: what was Gautama’s mind like throughout it all? Before Gaya and after Gaya? Why did there have to be a change through that powerful Meditation under the Bodhi tree? Why couldn’t He just fully expound the Buddhist doctrine before He sat down and attained an already attained Enlightenment? Could He have actually? I’m sure He could have, but chose to drive those Expedient Means forward in a push to show others how to come to Enlightenment.

How is one to view Him as a Buddha before Gaya? Still the World-Honored One? Yes. But playing a part of the one on the Path. So it is a deep question and I am also wondering how we view ourselves on the Path as well, whether we are voice hearers or Bodhisattvas, or secret Buddhas, or perceiving those Great Teachers like Thich Nhat Hanh and Garchen Rinpoche who do not hide their Enlightenment, is there a before and after Gaya for them too? Gaya is the model for so many Buddhists, Enlightened and unenlightened, it is really the staple of modern Buddhists for so many in how they must attain Awakening, so I am wondering, if Gautama was already Enlightened before that, what does that mean throughout that essence, to how one really comes to Enlightenment? I would Love a personal council with the World-Honored One on this, but there are also some very knowledgable people here who follow great Teachers and understand Nichiren Buddhism very well, so feel free to answer. As my goal is Enlightenment. :namaste:

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Malcolm »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:22 am Well you answered all my questions very clearly. I would like to ask: what was Gautama’s mind like throughout it all? Before Gaya and after Gaya? Why did there have to be a change through that powerful Meditation under the Bodhi tree? Why couldn’t He just fully expound the Buddhist doctrine before He sat down and attained an already attained Enlightenment? Could He have actually? I’m sure He could have, but chose to drive those Expedient Means forward in a push to show others how to come to Enlightenment.
Just a show for those tired of samsara.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Natan »

Yeah well.... With a grain of salt. Guru Buddha Vajradhara is the nature of mind. Anyone can say the same. Write good and it will be so.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by tkp67 »

Könchok Chödrak wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:22 am Well you answered all my questions very clearly. I would like to ask: what was Gautama’s mind like throughout it all? Before Gaya and after Gaya? Why did there have to be a change through that powerful Meditation under the Bodhi tree? Why couldn’t He just fully expound the Buddhist doctrine before He sat down and attained an already attained Enlightenment? Could He have actually? I’m sure He could have, but chose to drive those Expedient Means forward in a push to show others how to come to Enlightenment.

How is one to view Him as a Buddha before Gaya? Still the World-Honored One? Yes. But playing a part of the one on the Path. So it is a deep question and I am also wondering how we view ourselves on the Path as well, whether we are voice hearers or Bodhisattvas, or secret Buddhas, or perceiving those Great Teachers like Thich Nhat Hanh and Garchen Rinpoche who do not hide their Enlightenment, is there a before and after Gaya for them too? Gaya is the model for so many Buddhists, Enlightened and unenlightened, it is really the staple of modern Buddhists for so many in how they must attain Awakening, so I am wondering, if Gautama was already Enlightened before that, what does that mean throughout that essence, to how one really comes to Enlightenment? I would Love a personal council with the World-Honored One on this, but there are also some very knowledgable people here who follow great Teachers and understand Nichiren Buddhism very well, so feel free to answer. As my goal is Enlightenment. :namaste:

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
I believe the answer is to be found in the Lotus Sutra that was the life of Siddhārtha Gautama.

As Nichiren taught it, Gautama himself needed to understand the nature of provision and true within his own existence in order to teach it. If he knew this clearly out of the womb would he have begrudged those earlier years in the palace pretending not to know there was suffering outside the gates?

I believe the answers are available both in sutra, the writings of Nichiren and historical accounts of the buddha's life.

:anjali:
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:58 pm
As Nichiren taught it, Gautama himself needed to understand the nature of provision and true within his own existence in order to teach it. If he knew this clearly out of the womb would he have begrudged those earlier years in the palace pretending not to know there was suffering outside the gates?
There is no doubt that the Mahayana perspective is that the Buddha’s life was a mere display to inspire us to practice a path. So, yes, the Buddha was a buddha from infancy, and for eons beforehand.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:38 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:58 pm
As Nichiren taught it, Gautama himself needed to understand the nature of provision and true within his own existence in order to teach it. If he knew this clearly out of the womb would he have begrudged those earlier years in the palace pretending not to know there was suffering outside the gates?
There is no doubt that the Mahayana perspective is that the Buddha’s life was a mere display to inspire us to practice a path. So, yes, the Buddha was a buddha from infancy, and for eons beforehand.
That doesn't mean the experience wasn't genuine for the man named Guatama at the same time. The Simile and Parable chapter of the LS speaks to this dynamic.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:33 pm That doesn't mean the experience wasn't genuine for the man named Guatama at the same time.
The Buddha's twelve deeds are like an illusionist's trick which shows a battle between two armies. Though it seems like people are suffering and being killed, in reality no one suffers or is killed. The Buddha's twelve deeds are exactly like that. You think you see the lady sawed in half, but there isn't even a lady, let alone a saw, etc. It's all just a show.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Norwegian »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:33 pm That doesn't mean the experience wasn't genuine for the man named Guatama at the same time.
The Buddha's twelve deeds are like an illusionist's trick which shows a battle between two armies. Though it seems like people are suffering and being killed, in reality no one suffers or is killed. The Buddha's twelve deeds are exactly like that. You think you see the lady sawed in half, but there isn't even a lady, let alone a saw, etc. It's all just a show.
A play in full...
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:33 pm That doesn't mean the experience wasn't genuine for the man named Guatama at the same time.
The Buddha's twelve deeds are like an illusionist's trick which shows a battle between two armies. Though it seems like people are suffering and being killed, in reality no one suffers or is killed. The Buddha's twelve deeds are exactly like that. You think you see the lady sawed in half, but there isn't even a lady, let alone a saw, etc. It's all just a show.
I don't buy into this intellectual trip .
Suffering is real . The results of suffering are all due to another real thing, Karma.

Yeah it isn't an inherent thing but it makes the chemo no less bearable.

If it all this suffering was not real Buddha would not come to teach us how to blow it all out.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:33 pm That doesn't mean the experience wasn't genuine for the man named Guatama at the same time.
The Buddha's twelve deeds are like an illusionist's trick which shows a battle between two armies. Though it seems like people are suffering and being killed, in reality no one suffers or is killed. The Buddha's twelve deeds are exactly like that. You think you see the lady sawed in half, but there isn't even a lady, let alone a saw, etc. It's all just a show.
This still doesn't discount that in that existence his development in and out the palace up until enlightenment appeared the same. He was very clear about the truthful nature of his discourse. His experience unfolding within his own existence need not be disingenuous. It does not betray his teachings. Rather it validates the cause, condition and capacity variables that are required for the express of Buddhism itself which are a core of Nichiren's teachings.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:33 pm That doesn't mean the experience wasn't genuine for the man named Guatama at the same time.
The Buddha's twelve deeds are like an illusionist's trick which shows a battle between two armies. Though it seems like people are suffering and being killed, in reality no one suffers or is killed. The Buddha's twelve deeds are exactly like that. You think you see the lady sawed in half, but there isn't even a lady, let alone a saw, etc. It's all just a show.
Yet the body of the historical buddha was subject to life and death all the same. His ordinary existence is not a separate phenomenon independent of his enlightened state. Even for him it could have been a magic show which he came to understand in his enlightenment.

Why think he taught himself any differently than he taught others? He wish to make all equal would be still be fulfilled in such a scenario.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:09 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:33 pm That doesn't mean the experience wasn't genuine for the man named Guatama at the same time.
The Buddha's twelve deeds are like an illusionist's trick which shows a battle between two armies. Though it seems like people are suffering and being killed, in reality no one suffers or is killed. The Buddha's twelve deeds are exactly like that. You think you see the lady sawed in half, but there isn't even a lady, let alone a saw, etc. It's all just a show.
This still doesn't discount that in that existence his development in and out the palace up until enlightenment appeared the same.
As I said, it was just play, like a magic show. The Buddha exhibited his twelve deeds for our benefit, he did not exhibit them for his own benefit.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:18 pm
Yet the body of the historical buddha was subject to life and death all the same.
Not really. It was just a show for our benefit.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:22 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:18 pm
Yet the body of the historical buddha was subject to life and death all the same.
Not really. It was just a show for our benefit.
I would like a citation from the writings of Nichiren or the Lotus Sutra please since those the tools of the Nichiren traditions.

Otherwise argumentative ascertains in a tradition you denounce and put no effort in to learn is inappropriate.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by tkp67 »

The Buddha said that in past ages
the countless buddhas who have passed into extinction
rested and abided in the midst of expedient means,
and all likewise preached this Law.

The buddhas of the present and future,
whose numbers are beyond calculation,
they too will use expedient means
in expounding this same Law.

Thus the present world-honored one,
being born and later leaving his family,
attaining the way and turning the wheel of the Law,
likewise employs expedient means in preaching.

The world-honored one preaches the true way.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/3

Simile and Parable
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:24 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:22 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:18 pm
Yet the body of the historical buddha was subject to life and death all the same.
Not really. It was just a show for our benefit.
I would like a citation from the writings of Nichiren or the Lotus Sutra please since those the tools of the Nichiren traditions.

Otherwise argumentative ascertains in a tradition you denounce and put no effort in to learn is inappropriate.
This is already pointed out in the Saddharmapundarika Sūtra, you should read it sometime:

“Noble ones, the world with its devas, humans, and asuras thinks and believes, ‘Bhagavān Śākyamuni departed from his Śākya clan into mendicancy, went to the preeminent, supreme Bodhimaṇḍa, and attained the highest, complete enlightenment of buddhahood by the city of Gayā.’ [F.118.b] However, noble ones, I attained the highest, complete enlightenment of buddhahood many hundreds of thousands of quintillions of eons ago.

And:

“Noble ones, the Tathāgata says to beings with various aspirations, few roots of merit, and many kleśas, ‘Bhikṣus, I am young; I renounced my family and it has not been long, bhikṣus, since I have attained the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood.’

And:

“Noble ones, whatever the Tathāgata has to do, that is what the Tathāgata does. The Tathāgata, who has attained perfect buddhahood a long time ago, has an immeasurable lifespan. [F.120.a] He always remains and does not pass into nirvāṇa, but creates the appearance of passing into nirvāṇa in order to benefit his students.

And:

“Noble ones,” he continued, “in the same way, although I attained the highest, complete enlightenment of perfect buddhahood countless, innumerable hundreds of thousands of quintillions of eons ago, I sometimes teach as a skillful method such as this in order to guide beings. In this matter, I am not in any way a liar.”

https://read.84000.co/translation/toh113.html

If you assert the Buddha experiences the sufferings and torments of ordinary sentient beings, you contradict your own basic sūtra.

The twelve deeds are only for show. The future buddha, Maitreya, makes the same point of the Mahāyānottaratantra, citing the Lotus Sūtra to this effect.
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Re: The Life Span of the Tathagata: Before and after Gaya.

Post by DewachenVagabond »

Minobu wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:49 pm
tkp67 wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:33 pm That doesn't mean the experience wasn't genuine for the man named Guatama at the same time.
The Buddha's twelve deeds are like an illusionist's trick which shows a battle between two armies. Though it seems like people are suffering and being killed, in reality no one suffers or is killed. The Buddha's twelve deeds are exactly like that. You think you see the lady sawed in half, but there isn't even a lady, let alone a saw, etc. It's all just a show.
I don't buy into this intellectual trip .
Suffering is real . The results of suffering are all due to another real thing, Karma.

Yeah it isn't an inherent thing but it makes the chemo no less bearable.

If it all this suffering was not real Buddha would not come to teach us how to blow it all out.
Of course suffering is real for sentient beings. Gautama was not a sentient being. He was a Buddha.
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:
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