Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

illarraza
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by illarraza »

tkp67 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:01 pm
Astus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:31 am
tkp67 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:06 amThus for that brief period a person chants daimoku they actually hold the whole of this experience within their mind stream. There is no practice that takes all of the requirements to fulfill the lotus sutra so one might gain the benefits therein.
Just to see if I understand you correctly. Is it the case that chanting the daimoku means that purely because of those words the Buddha's complete awakening is present in one's mind, rendering the mind of the chanter equal to that of a buddha, therefore nothing else is needed since just by chanting one has perfected everything there is to attain? Or is it that the chanting connects somehow one to the Buddha's awakening and it gradually purifies the mind over time simply by the force of that connection?
Column a or b depending on cause, capacity, condition and the time. However it is more detailed.

The Lotus Sutra gives an example of someone grasping the lotus instantly. This is because that being had already met the requirements and perfected the teachings prior.

So column a.

Now I also believe it plants a seed for some that eventually manifests on other paths (according to cause, capacity and condition). About two years ago I was speaking with a friend's mother. She is around 70 and practices kundalini yoga. She was a flower child for a bit but had left that life well over 45 years ago. I started to talk about buddhism and mentioned nam myoho renge kyo. She had said it once all those years ago. It had given her some direction spiritually albeit loosely. She did not see them (her practice or nam myoho renge kyo) as being different. I made no attempt to correct her as her practice is what keeps her thriving.

More practically for a Nichiren practitioner chanting sustainably over the course of time manifests into benefit. This is not to say this alone will work perfectly for everyone. It is not a subscription as it. Some people require more specific understanding about the provisional teachings. Some grasp these quickly some need to learn them through existence. What the sustainable use of daimoku does is works against the conditioning life struggles cause. So here column b.

There is this seeming contradiction about those who practice this buddhism. Nichiren mentions it often. Practitioners will enjoy great benefit in this life time and also suffer great resistance and difficulty. Here in is the true purpose of this practice. That one resides in the auspices of shakyamuni's enlightenment so nothing external can destroy one's inner joy that comes from one's own life force. I believe Nichiren Shoshu call it the diamond chalice. I may be off but I believe it still serves to illustrate the point.

I believe personally that every moment spent just not doubting that one has the capacity to hold this state in one's mind even under the condensation of a mantra plants seeds that plant deep roots and offer grand fruition.

:anjali:
I believe that, when you look at the Three Obstacles and Four Devils as benefit (as did Nichiren), you are near to having arrived.

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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by LastLegend »

It’s matter of Deep Faith which is respected. However, most Sutras says, “if good men and women copy this Sutra, even a page, a dhirani, will accumulate merits...” etc.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by tkp67 »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:52 pm
tkp67 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:10 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:19 pm

Nichiren fundamentally accepts the 3000 worlds principle and.claims it is hidden in the Lotus Sutra, and thus in the title, but afaik never really explains where and how.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/241

The Correct Method of Contemplation

Discussed at length in this Gosho.
I'm sorry TK I don't see it. This is one of the goshos where Nichiren relates ichinen-sanzen to the Lotus Sutra, but he does not explain why it is so beyond re-interpreting Zhyhi's work. Nichiren also claims the relationship is "unfathomable and beyond comprehension"- presumably a realization that Nichiren has had and is unable to communicate.

Nichiren invokes Zhyhi as an authority and puts him in context of the claimed supremacy of the Lotus Sutra but I don't understand why it is necesarily the case. This method of invocation of authority in support of a doctrinal position is common, Stone presents many examples of it as a method of legitimization used by the Kamakura schools- perhaps its use as a method is common elsewhere too.
I know there is a place where he points to it. Perhaps it is the line in expedient means about true aspect of phenomenon. I have to look through my notes. Remembering exactly were certain specific passages are is not necessarily a strong suit for me. He does make the same point. That this true aspect of phenomenon is only understood between buddhas. It can't be articulated conventionally since it is beyond convention. He does mention as much in that gosho.

There is always a blank spot in the middle of these discourses that is meant to be filled in by the living mind reading them. While it can't be articulated the "silhouette" can be highlighted by everything through articulation.

:anjali:
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by tkp67 »

illarraza wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:21 pm
I believe that, when you look at the Three Obstacles and Four Devils as benefit (as did Nichiren), you are near to having arrived.

Mark
I believe you are correct.

:anjali:
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Budai »

LastLegend wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:51 pm It’s matter of Deep Faith which is respected. However, most Sutras says, “if good men and women copy this Sutra, even a page, a dhirani, will accumulate merits...” etc.
So let us do such with the Buddha's great words! :thumbsup:
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by narhwal90 »

tkp67 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:42 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:52 pm
tkp67 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:10 pm

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/241

The Correct Method of Contemplation

Discussed at length in this Gosho.
I'm sorry TK I don't see it. This is one of the goshos where Nichiren relates ichinen-sanzen to the Lotus Sutra, but he does not explain why it is so beyond re-interpreting Zhyhi's work. Nichiren also claims the relationship is "unfathomable and beyond comprehension"- presumably a realization that Nichiren has had and is unable to communicate.

Nichiren invokes Zhyhi as an authority and puts him in context of the claimed supremacy of the Lotus Sutra but I don't understand why it is necesarily the case. This method of invocation of authority in support of a doctrinal position is common, Stone presents many examples of it as a method of legitimization used by the Kamakura schools- perhaps its use as a method is common elsewhere too.
I know there is a place where he points to it. Perhaps it is the line in expedient means about true aspect of phenomenon. I have to look through my notes. Remembering exactly were certain specific passages are is not necessarily a strong suit for me. He does make the same point. That this true aspect of phenomenon is only understood between buddhas. It can't be articulated conventionally since it is beyond convention. He does mention as much in that gosho.

There is always a blank spot in the middle of these discourses that is meant to be filled in by the living mind reading them. While it can't be articulated the "silhouette" can be highlighted by everything through articulation.

:anjali:
There is the "understanding between buddhas" sutra quote- but that doesn't convey anything to me about the 3000 worlds- which is itself an expedient concept. I sure don't want to be filling in meanings with my own imagination or intuition, I don't see any reason why its less prone to error than reason or the senses.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:02 pm There is the "understanding between buddhas" sutra quote- but that doesn't convey anything to me about the 3000 worlds- which is itself an expedient concept. I sure don't want to be filling in meanings with my own imagination or intuition, I don't see any reason why its less prone to error than reason or the senses.
Perhaps the following will make things more clear.

:anjali:
T’ien-t’ai also describes a single mind as comprising the three thousand realms. In this sense, threefold contemplation in a single mind is equal to observing a single moment of life and seeing the three thousand realms within it. At the same time, one perceives that all phenomena consist of the three thousand realms.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/dic/Content/T/122

Question: What is this Law that is superior to the threefold contemplation in a single mind?

Answer: This is truly a doctrine of the greatest significance. It concerns a realm that can only be shared between one Buddha and another, and therefore we cannot put it in words. That is why I cannot describe it to you. Thus in the Lotus Sutra the Buddha has said, “My Law is wonderful and difficult to ponder,”25 “[It] cannot be explained in words.”26 Therefore we are told that even for the Buddha of perfect enlightenment and complete reward, it is a Law that cannot be expressed in words, cannot be fathomed. How much more is this true, then, for bodhisattvas who are at the stage of near-perfect enlightenment or lower, or for ordinary mortals?

Question: If we cannot even hear what it is called, how can we know that it is a superior Law?

Answer: It is the Law that T’ien-t’ai attained through his personal enlightenment. The scholars of our present age are unaware of it because they have erred in the transmission of that teaching from one generation to the next. It is the Law or doctrine that should be carefully and unfailingly handed down in secret from one generation to the next.

However, since your intentions are surely praiseworthy, I will tell you what it is called. It is called the Law expressed in a single word. This is what the Great Teacher Dengyō meant when he wrote that “Tao-sui has transmitted to us in a single phrase the threefold contemplation in a single mind.”27

Question: I have never heard what sort of Law that may be. What is it?

Answer: In the end, it may be summed up in the one word myōhō, the wonderful Law.

Question: How do we know that this wonderful Law is superior to the threefold contemplation in a single mind?

Answer: Because the wonderful Law represents the sum of blessings that are received, whereas the threefold contemplation represents a meditative method carried out by the practitioner.

The Buddha, speaking of this wonderful Law in the Lotus Sutra, says: “This Law attained in the place of practice,”28 “My Law is wonderful and difficult to ponder,” “This Law is not something that can be understood through pondering,” “[It] cannot be explained in words.”

T’ien-t’ai states: “The character myō, or wonderful, means that which is beyond ordinary comprehension, beyond the power of words to describe, beyond the scope of the mind to imagine. Hō, or Law, means the doctrine of the Ten Worlds and the ten factors, of the oneness of cause and effect.”29

Whether we speak of the three truths or the threefold contemplation or the three thousand realms, though we may describe these as the doctrine that is unfathomable and beyond comprehension, all these concepts are based upon the personal enlightenment of T’ien-t’ai, doctrines that T’ien-t’ai was able to encompass in his thought. But this “wonderful Law” that I have been speaking of is the teacher of the Buddhas. If we go by the passages from the Lotus Sutra I have just quoted, it represents the state of life or understanding of the Buddha who attained the highest stage of perfect enlightenment, the ultimate fruits of Buddhahood, in the inconceivably remote past. It does not represent the state of life or understanding of the lord of teachings, other Buddhas, and bodhisattvas of the sutras p.516preached prior to the Lotus Sutra or of the theoretical teaching.

When the Buddha speaks in the Lotus Sutra of that that “can only be understood and shared between Buddhas,”30 he is referring to the doctrine of the Ten Worlds and the ten factors and three thousand realms described in the theoretical teaching. He is expounding the highest degree of enlightenment achieved by the Buddha in his transient status, that is, by the lord of teachings of the theoretical teaching. But the wonderful Law, the Law that the Buddha in his original state attained as a result of the fusion of reality and wisdom, is something that the Buddha in his transient status and the other Buddhas could never encompass in their thought. Much less, then, could bodhisattvas or ordinary mortals!
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/241
Last edited by tkp67 on Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by narhwal90 »

TK, I know about those passages- these are simply claims by Nichiren that ichinen-sanzen is at the core of the Lotus Sutra, where he invokes Zhiyi for authority (and presumes to say what a person's enlightenment was or was not nearly 700 years previously) If Nichiren is enlightened, and so realizes perfect understanding such that he is qualified to teach it, why does he invoke Zhiyi instead of making the point in his own words?

Note that Nichiren uses this method of argument based on reference to authority elsewhere- reinterpreting various Tendai principles onto the basis of myoho. I could see that as expedient means to communicate with others educated in such things but I would not propose such claims to be explanations.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Minobu »

ok so like you wake me up from my sabbatical for this ? !!!
narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:10 pm TK, I know about those passages- these are simply claims by Nichiren that ichinen-sanzen is at the core of the Lotus Sutra, where he invokes Zhiyi for authority (and presumes to say what a person's enlightenment was or was not nearly 700 years previously) If Nichiren is enlightened, and so realizes perfect understanding such that he is qualified to teach it, why does he invoke Zhiyi instead of making the point in his own words?

Note that Nichiren uses this method of argument based on reference to authority elsewhere- reinterpreting various Tendai principles onto the basis of myoho. I could see that as expedient means to communicate with others educated in such things but I would not propose such claims to be explanations.
remember when Q said something like Nichiren took apart all that was available at the time and reconstructed a weird form of the millenian falcon...something like that ...same meaning...

I think He had to take the going concern of the day...like he ridiculed every sect and showed where the teachings would no longer benefit the sentients during mappo ...he was out on a ledge but had to bring the practice for the mappo days into play...

So he took everything that was feasible and mashed it together...

important thing is what we actually have....The Gohonzon..and The name of the Primordial Buddha to call upon in our lives.


If i may be so bold as to say this...look at The Gohonzon...he put on it Lord Brahma the god of Life and Lord Indra as well for protection...Everything that promised to protect the Lotus Sutra and then some in order to jerk everyone into play.


Tendai was big at the time and he went the gambit in their temples and schools...He knew it was not capable of producing Buddhahood but He kept the core ideas alive..

I think Zhiyi used all the characters in the Lotus Sutra and took their traits like Devadatta and made up the nine worlds from their personalities and actual head spaces they were in...Zhiyo then constructed some mathematical equation...i think Nichiren watered the whole tendai thing down but retained it's idea of nine worlds supported by Buddha Nature or a product of Buddha Nature...the whole thing in the Entity Gosho about Buddha Nature being neither enlightenment or defilement but produces both...

to this day none of tendai people can boast accomplishing Buddhahood...I don't think Zhiyi got there either he died before completing one of his most important works he was making for some emperor or something...there is a clue as to his life condition.

i think if you can't complete the thing you say you are brought here to do in the name of Buddhism ...well...i dunno...it's just an itch that is not supposed to be scratched i guess..

but narwhal is brave to question this..

so we have a practice that proves itself....was complete to the point you end up with forgeries and made up stuff to confuse the issue...brought on by demons and those who don't want us to be enlightened..keep the masses ignorant...don't give them the key to freedom...

so i suggest drop the worry and take what is front of you and the basics and carry on..
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Minobu »

sounds flakey ...
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Minobu »

hey it's mappo ...
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Minobu »

thats becoming like a mantra for everything thats wrong and misunderstood.

i'm outta here...
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by LastLegend »

No...it’s a good valid practice but Lotus Sutra is only one of Major Mahayana Sutras expound our Buddha.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by tkp67 »

narhwal90 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:10 pm TK, I know about those passages- these are simply claims by Nichiren that ichinen-sanzen is at the core of the Lotus Sutra, where he invokes Zhiyi for authority (and presumes to say what a person's enlightenment was or was not nearly 700 years previously) If Nichiren is enlightened, and so realizes perfect understanding such that he is qualified to teach it, why does he invoke Zhiyi instead of making the point in his own words?

Note that Nichiren uses this method of argument based on reference to authority elsewhere- reinterpreting various Tendai principles onto the basis of myoho. I could see that as expedient means to communicate with others educated in such things but I would not propose such claims to be explanations.
As far as I understand it he evokes lineage of the lotus school starting with Nagarjuana as a means of acknowledging and venerating their contributions and creating end to end karmic connection to Shakyamuni. He mentions everyone in the chain as being on eagle peak at some point as if to say they had perfected and carried the teaching at the time of their existence. Constantly puts cause, condition and capacity into context. He also gives them appointments according to their expressed nature. Bodhisattva medicine king comes to mind.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Minobu »

ok so point is .
It's almost like Nichiren slapped all those mentioned in The Lotus Sutra in the face with a big "Yeah remember your promise !"

And the commonest of the common was his goal to be able to reach.

He had given up on the state of Buddhism in Japan ..

He put all the grand daddy of all stuff into play and stood back and offered his life experiences to base the outcomes on...

after all he did call down some god of the stars at just the right moment...stopped him losing his head...

prayed and caused the rain to come...

boasted about mongol like invasion of the country and was around when it happened and the Divine Wind swept them away at sea...

so where are people..

the whole practice is a cry for help ...and to who is he asking for this....

everything that is inside each one of us...

someone asked about how do they get rich in the chat thing here at DW.


so like because their is the god Agni we have fire.

all these gods from this particular family are dhamra lovers and also they make this world beautiful.

You have all the gods as part of you..

Goddess Lady Lakshmi a god of wealth and beauty is not to be prayed to but to be generated from inside ,,in a way she lies in wait.

this is what the Gohonzon is...it invokes that which is there.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:36 pm
As far as I understand it he evokes lineage of the lotus school starting with Nagarjuana
funny as you posted this i posted ..
this is what the Gohonzon is...it invokes that which is there.
every now and then we do this synchronicity thing...so many times you post exactly what i'm thinking ..or post something to answer some question i was thinking about..

too cool.


look at timestamps
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:39 pm
tkp67 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:36 pm
As far as I understand it he evokes lineage of the lotus school starting with Nagarjuana
funny as you posted this i posted ..
this is what the Gohonzon is...it invokes that which is there.
every now and then we do this synchronicity thing...so many times you post exactly what i'm thinking ..or post something to answer some question i was thinking about..

too cool.


look at timestamps
I notice. :smile: :anjali:
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:43 pm
Minobu wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:39 pm
tkp67 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:36 pm
As far as I understand it he evokes lineage of the lotus school starting with Nagarjuana
funny as you posted this i posted ..
this is what the Gohonzon is...it invokes that which is there.
every now and then we do this synchronicity thing...so many times you post exactly what i'm thinking ..or post something to answer some question i was thinking about..

too cool.


look at timestamps
I notice. :smile: :anjali:
i have this love hate relationship with you to be honest.... :tongue:
maybe we were married in the past....you act like my present and past wives.... :tongue:

hopefully you did not have too much facial hair...
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:39 pm
look at timestamps
Follow the plan.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Budai »

I think what is unique about the Lotus Sutra is that it claims that one cannot acheive Enlightenment without it's Teachings:
"The way of the bodhisattva is the same as this. As long as a person has not yet heard. Not yet understood. And not yet been able to practice this Lotus Sutra, then you should know that person is still far away from anuttara-samyak-sambodhi. Why? Because all bodhisattvas who attain anuttara-samyak-sambodhi in all cases do so through this sutra. This sutra opens the gate of expedient means and shows the form of true reality. This storehouse of the Lotus Sutra is hidden deep and far away where no person can reach it. But the Buddha, teaching, converting and leading to success the bodhisattvas, opens it up for them.
-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter Ten: The Teacher of the Law.

So this expounds thst the Ekayāna as understood as everything that is the Vehicle of the Buddhas that bring us to Enlightenment, comes from the Lotus Sutra. Of course from Theravada down to the deep Vajrayana Teachings, up to Zen and other Mahayana Teachings we have a very real Buddhism that comes from Gautama's Emanation that can bring us to Enlightenment. Powerful Buddhists are present there. But all of these Vehicles or Schools contain the Teachings of the Lotus Sutra within them. How? Because Gautama Buddha's basis for Teaching others how to come to Enlightenment comes from the Lotus Sutra. So even if one sits underneath a tree and meditates without any formal training, and Enlightenment hits them, like it hit Gautama, because they have an overbearing drive to become a Buddha and have that level of Compassion, that means they have penetrated the Teachings and meaning of the Lotus Sutra, whether they have picked up the book in that life or not. But here we have it in our Libraries, so it's important to recite, read, possess, and share, and discuss, so that all may come to Enlightenment by it's Teachings. It's that important, and the Buddha states such within it's pages.

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo!
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