Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Minobu
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:30 am I'm not so sure Minobu- why can't Nichiren and his propositions be subject to the same critical review and investigation that might be applied to the commentary of any other teacher? There are any number of commentaries and analyses of the Lotus Sutra.

So does invoking the title of the sutra instruct the follower on the contents of the sutra without any further study? Meaning, no need for goshos? Back in my Shoshu days and in SGI now there is a continuing emphasis on faith, practice, study. Meaning (to me) belief that the practice works, doing the practice, study of the practice (gosho etc), by implication all three are needed.

Besides recitation of the title, Nichiren specifcally accepts recital of the sutra, contemplation of Ichinen-sanzen and the so-called 3 Truths propositions, if the follower is capable. Is it the case that the essential practice is chanting but elaboration of the practice with more complex forms is beneficial- and therefore of some importance?
I'm only going by my unpacking this religion over the years and what i learned here at this site and innthe old days Esangha and that independant yahoo group with rev Ryui.

The Lotus Sutra talks of mappo and who will be handed the keys so to speak.

this practice actually produces wonder in as many individuals in as many wondrous ways as there are people who try it.

The non members who come to this section and set up their criteria of wisdom that has to be achieved by realizing emptiness, well none have and they talk about it all the time...your first real world clue.
none even expect to achieve what that deem necessary.

Nichiren was well studied in their what seems to be only buddhist rhetoric now these days.

None can claim that which the Lotus Sutra , the Entity of The Lotus Sutra , claim in this time.

It's The Eternal Buddhas realm and The Teaching is the very Entity itself so go argue with that.

But you only have to look for proof.

Let those that accuse Nichiren's practice of not producing the Wisdom necessary come for and show us one of their own who has.
Not going to happen ever.

peasantry narwhal ...peasantry outdo these men of Buddhist Debate.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Have you read other Mahayana Sutras?
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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tkp67 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:06 amThus for that brief period a person chants daimoku they actually hold the whole of this experience within their mind stream. There is no practice that takes all of the requirements to fulfill the lotus sutra so one might gain the benefits therein.
Just to see if I understand you correctly. Is it the case that chanting the daimoku means that purely because of those words the Buddha's complete awakening is present in one's mind, rendering the mind of the chanter equal to that of a buddha, therefore nothing else is needed since just by chanting one has perfected everything there is to attain? Or is it that the chanting connects somehow one to the Buddha's awakening and it gradually purifies the mind over time simply by the force of that connection?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Minobu wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:00 amThis quest for wisdom noble as it may feel to you , has nothing to do with the actual ability to awaken our innate Buddha nature, with this practice in Mappo.
The root cause of samsara is ignorance, to achieve permanent liberation one needs to eliminate ignorance, and wisdom is the antidote for that. If you say that wisdom is not needed for awakening, then do you also say ignorance is not the root cause? If ignorance is not the cause of samsara, what is? But if ignorance is the ultimate source, how could anything but wisdom overcome it?
case in point no one you know or will ever know experiences the realizations you and Malcolm claim to be the gold standard in Buddhism
Does that mean that Nichiren did not aim for liberation and buddhahood, because those were impossible to achieve in his opinion?
A mere uneducated illiterate peasant can awaken their innate Buddha Nature...Why...
Because their teacher is The Eternal Buddha ...what you see as some calming effect in chanting is like one fleck of ice crystal on the iceberg...
If buddhahood is the goal and the result of practice, then all practitioners should show the qualities of a buddha (see e.g.: eighteen unshared properties), shouldn't they?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Astus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:53 am
Minobu wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:00 amThis quest for wisdom noble as it may feel to you , has nothing to do with the actual ability to awaken our innate Buddha nature, with this practice in Mappo.
The root cause of samsara is ignorance, to achieve permanent liberation one needs to eliminate ignorance, and wisdom is the antidote for that. If you say that wisdom is not needed for awakening, then do you also say ignorance is not the root cause? If ignorance is not the cause of samsara, what is? But if ignorance is the ultimate source, how could anything but wisdom overcome it?
case in point no one you know or will ever know experiences the realizations you and Malcolm claim to be the gold standard in Buddhism
Does that mean that Nichiren did not aim for liberation and buddhahood, because those were impossible to achieve in his opinion?
A mere uneducated illiterate peasant can awaken their innate Buddha Nature...Why...
Because their teacher is The Eternal Buddha ...what you see as some calming effect in chanting is like one fleck of ice crystal on the iceberg...
If buddhahood is the goal and the result of practice, then all practitioners should show the qualities of a buddha (see e.g.: eighteen unshared properties), shouldn't they?
first i would like to thank the gods for the link you posted to the SGI library.
Why?

It shows that we are not a bunch of ignorant boors ..I'm not attacking knowledge , in fact all I've ever done here is learn and ask questions.

It's not longer a matter of just ignorance being the barrier to achieve liberation during mappo.

Everyone including you are like the poorest of the poor when it comes to the capacity to actually develop from the past practices.

It's like teaching quantum physics to chimps. They just do not benefit by it.

This is what i'm pointing to and the fact remains , you seem to be avoiding the actual question, no one attains the realizations you people pay for to learn how to do. Show me one.

So you end up trolling internet forums with puffed up go nowhere bravado . Lots of knowledge but no actual results.
The best you people can offer is death bed enlightenment..which no one can verify ...how people buy into that , well you have the infrastructure to do so and make huge money from.

So all that knowledge in the SGI library you linked to proves one thing...it's not the knowledge that will liberate you but the relationship with The Eternal Buddha Sakyamuni . When you chant the title of The Lotus Sutra you are calling forth the Ultimate Reality ..And most important you are like recieving direct everything you need from Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.

It's spelled out clearly in The Lotus sutra and verified and put to the test by such Masters as Zhiyi and Venerable Mai Lo and Venerable Dengyo the Great and Finally from the life of Bodhisattva Jogyo in the body of Nichiren DaiShonin.

so deny Lord Sakyamuni Buddha and The Lotus Sutra and fail./
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Great Deep Faith!

Astus should read Avatamsaka Sutra which the first Chapter talks about Samantabhadra similarly this Bodhisattva is mentioned in last chapter of Lotus Sutra.

https://selfdefinition.org/buddhism/Gar ... -Sutra.pdf

Astus sir, this passsge is from Avatamsaka Sutra:

Tenth Vow
"Moreover, good man, to transfer all merits and virtues universally is explained like this: all merits and virtues, from the first vow, to pay homage and respect up to and including the vow to accommodate and benefit all living beings throughout out the Dharma realm (cosmos) and to the limits of empty space. I vow all living beings will be constantly happy without sickness or suffering. I vow that no one will succeed in doing any evil, but that all will quickly perfect their cultivation of good karma. I vow to shut the door to evil destinies and open the right paths of humans, gods and that of Nirvana. I will stand in for living beings and receive all the extremely severe fruits of suffering which they bring around with their evil karma. I will liberate all these beings and ultimately bring them to accomplish unsurpassed Bodhi (Buddhahood). The Bodhisattva cultivates transference’s in this way.

This type of work is not unknown and not understood by Sravakayana because they carry erroneous views and logic.😄
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Minobu wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:33 pmAnd most important you are like recieving direct everything you need from Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.
Receiving what from Shakyamuni? If the Dharma, then what about what we have at hand from him, that is, the sutras themselves?
It's spelled out clearly in The Lotus sutra and verified and put to the test by such Masters as Zhiyi and Venerable Mai Lo and Venerable Dengyo the Great and Finally from the life of Bodhisattva Jogyo in the body of Nichiren DaiShonin.
As far as I know, the masters Zhiyi, Zhanran (Miaole), and Saicho (Dengyo) taught mainly the practices of calming and insight, like the contemplation on the three thousand worlds in a single thought. If theirs are valid teachings, how do those relate to chanting the title of the Lotus Sutra?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Astus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 9:31 am
tkp67 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:06 amThus for that brief period a person chants daimoku they actually hold the whole of this experience within their mind stream. There is no practice that takes all of the requirements to fulfill the lotus sutra so one might gain the benefits therein.
Just to see if I understand you correctly. Is it the case that chanting the daimoku means that purely because of those words the Buddha's complete awakening is present in one's mind, rendering the mind of the chanter equal to that of a buddha, therefore nothing else is needed since just by chanting one has perfected everything there is to attain? Or is it that the chanting connects somehow one to the Buddha's awakening and it gradually purifies the mind over time simply by the force of that connection?
Column a or b depending on cause, capacity, condition and the time. However it is more detailed.

The Lotus Sutra gives an example of someone grasping the lotus instantly. This is because that being had already met the requirements and perfected the teachings prior.

So column a.

Now I also believe it plants a seed for some that eventually manifests on other paths (according to cause, capacity and condition). About two years ago I was speaking with a friend's mother. She is around 70 and practices kundalini yoga. She was a flower child for a bit but had left that life well over 45 years ago. I started to talk about buddhism and mentioned nam myoho renge kyo. She had said it once all those years ago. It had given her some direction spiritually albeit loosely. She did not see them (her practice or nam myoho renge kyo) as being different. I made no attempt to correct her as her practice is what keeps her thriving.

More practically for a Nichiren practitioner chanting sustainably over the course of time manifests into benefit. This is not to say this alone will work perfectly for everyone. It is not a subscription as it. Some people require more specific understanding about the provisional teachings. Some grasp these quickly some need to learn them through existence. What the sustainable use of daimoku does is works against the conditioning life struggles cause. So here column b.

There is this seeming contradiction about those who practice this buddhism. Nichiren mentions it often. Practitioners will enjoy great benefit in this life time and also suffer great resistance and difficulty. Here in is the true purpose of this practice. That one resides in the auspices of shakyamuni's enlightenment so nothing external can destroy one's inner joy that comes from one's own life force. I believe Nichiren Shoshu call it the diamond chalice. I may be off but I believe it still serves to illustrate the point.

I believe personally that every moment spent just not doubting that one has the capacity to hold this state in one's mind even under the condensation of a mantra plants seeds that plant deep roots and offer grand fruition.

:anjali:
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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LastLegend wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:17 pm Can merit be turned into wisdom?
LastLegend wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:56 pm Great Deep Faith!
I believe this to be the case. If one has great deep faith (and desire) to evoke merit for the purpose of wisdom in the name of the world honored buddha it brings one through the doorway of Shakyamnui's enlightenment and into the storehouse of wisdom of the buddhas of the three times and ten directions.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Astus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:01 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:33 pmAnd most important you are like recieving direct everything you need from Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.
Receiving what from Shakyamuni? If the Dharma, then what about what we have at hand from him, that is, the sutras themselves?
It's spelled out clearly in The Lotus sutra and verified and put to the test by such Masters as Zhiyi and Venerable Mai Lo and Venerable Dengyo the Great and Finally from the life of Bodhisattva Jogyo in the body of Nichiren DaiShonin.
As far as I know, the masters Zhiyi, Zhanran (Miaole), and Saicho (Dengyo) taught mainly the practices of calming and insight, like the contemplation on the three thousand worlds in a single thought. If theirs are valid teachings, how do those relate to chanting the title of the Lotus Sutra?
Nichiren fundamentally accepts the 3000 worlds principle and.claims it is hidden in the Lotus Sutra, and thus in the title, but afaik never really explains where and how.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Exactly that! Meaning of merit transference given the intention of practitioners is liberation from samsara.

Personally, however I don’t believe Our Shakyamuni is the primordial Buddha. It’s perfectly fine for Nichiren to believe in such.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Astus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:01 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:33 pmAnd most important you are like recieving direct everything you need from Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.
Receiving what from Shakyamuni? If the Dharma, then what about what we have at hand from him, that is, the sutras themselves?
It's spelled out clearly in The Lotus sutra and verified and put to the test by such Masters as Zhiyi and Venerable Mai Lo and Venerable Dengyo the Great and Finally from the life of Bodhisattva Jogyo in the body of Nichiren DaiShonin.
As far as I know, the masters Zhiyi, Zhanran (Miaole), and Saicho (Dengyo) taught mainly the practices of calming and insight, like the contemplation on the three thousand worlds in a single thought. If theirs are valid teachings, how do those relate to chanting the title of the Lotus Sutra?
I'm going to say Adieu .

Nichiren was once a TenDai Priest and learned all there was to know from them as well as studying all that was available in Japan at the time.

He created an entirely new approach , which I believe is intuit from Dharma Kaya .

We believe it stems from the Lotus Sutra where Lord Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha states "I have not yet revealed the Truth "

Nichiren took it from there..

have fun hope you find what you are looking for..

i would be the first one to rejoice if any of the realizations you and Malcolm talk of come true for you...i wish you only success..

it would mean a lot if one person was able to do your thing and come out a Buddha and show us all...


good luck

i'm off for another sabbatical from DW..
Last edited by Minobu on Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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I believe MahaVairocana is the ancient Buddha.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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i apologize for bringing dirt into the thread..i deleted it and hopefully no one is posting off the original if so please delete in your post..

it was a low blow of me....

my previous post
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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Minobu wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:21 pm
Astus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:01 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:33 pmAnd most important you are like recieving direct everything you need from Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.
Receiving what from Shakyamuni? If the Dharma, then what about what we have at hand from him, that is, the sutras themselves?
It's spelled out clearly in The Lotus sutra and verified and put to the test by such Masters as Zhiyi and Venerable Mai Lo and Venerable Dengyo the Great and Finally from the life of Bodhisattva Jogyo in the body of Nichiren DaiShonin.
As far as I know, the masters Zhiyi, Zhanran (Miaole), and Saicho (Dengyo) taught mainly the practices of calming and insight, like the contemplation on the three thousand worlds in a single thought. If theirs are valid teachings, how do those relate to chanting the title of the Lotus Sutra?
I'm going to say Adieu .

Nichiren was once a TenDai Priest and learned all there was to know from them as well as studying all that was available in Japan at the time.

He created an entirely new approach , which I believe is intuit from Dharma Kaya .

We believe it stems from the Lotus Sutra where Lord Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha states "I have not yet revealed the Truth "

Nichiren took it from there..

have fun hope you find what you are looking for..

i would be the first one to rejoice if any of the realizations you and Malcolm talk of come true for you...i wish you only success..

it would mean a lot if one person was able to do your thing and come out a Buddha and show us all...


good luck

i'm off for another sabbatical from DW..
They just seem to be asking genuine questions. Why are you taking it so personally?
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:21 pm Exactly that! Meaning of merit transference given the intention of practitioners is liberation from samsara.

Personally, however I don’t believe Our Shakyamuni is the primordial Buddha. It’s perfectly fine for Nichiren to believe in such.
His enlightenment is such that it is indistinguishable from that of the primordial buddha. That is the point of his enlightenment by the lotus is to facilitate one's own connection to the same source so there is no differences. His aim to to make all beings equal to the primordial state by direct enlightenment by it.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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narhwal90 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:19 pm
Astus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:01 pm
Minobu wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:33 pmAnd most important you are like recieving direct everything you need from Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.
Receiving what from Shakyamuni? If the Dharma, then what about what we have at hand from him, that is, the sutras themselves?
It's spelled out clearly in The Lotus sutra and verified and put to the test by such Masters as Zhiyi and Venerable Mai Lo and Venerable Dengyo the Great and Finally from the life of Bodhisattva Jogyo in the body of Nichiren DaiShonin.
As far as I know, the masters Zhiyi, Zhanran (Miaole), and Saicho (Dengyo) taught mainly the practices of calming and insight, like the contemplation on the three thousand worlds in a single thought. If theirs are valid teachings, how do those relate to chanting the title of the Lotus Sutra?
Nichiren fundamentally accepts the 3000 worlds principle and.claims it is hidden in the Lotus Sutra, and thus in the title, but afaik never really explains where and how.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/241

The Correct Method of Contemplation

Discussed at length in this Gosho.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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tkp67 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:57 pm
LastLegend wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:21 pm Exactly that! Meaning of merit transference given the intention of practitioners is liberation from samsara.

Personally, however I don’t believe Our Shakyamuni is the primordial Buddha. It’s perfectly fine for Nichiren to believe in such.
His enlightenment is such that it is indistinguishable from that of the primordial buddha. That is the point of his enlightenment by the lotus is to facilitate one's own connection to the same source so there is no differences. His aim to to make all beings equal to the primordial state by direct enlightenment by it.
Some Sutra/Sutras say he became enlightened eons ago could be considered an ancient Buddha.
It’s eye blinking.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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tkp67 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:10 pm
narhwal90 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:19 pm
Astus wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 4:01 pm

Receiving what from Shakyamuni? If the Dharma, then what about what we have at hand from him, that is, the sutras themselves?



As far as I know, the masters Zhiyi, Zhanran (Miaole), and Saicho (Dengyo) taught mainly the practices of calming and insight, like the contemplation on the three thousand worlds in a single thought. If theirs are valid teachings, how do those relate to chanting the title of the Lotus Sutra?
Nichiren fundamentally accepts the 3000 worlds principle and.claims it is hidden in the Lotus Sutra, and thus in the title, but afaik never really explains where and how.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/241

The Correct Method of Contemplation

Discussed at length in this Gosho.
I'm sorry TK I don't see it. This is one of the goshos where Nichiren relates ichinen-sanzen to the Lotus Sutra, but he does not explain why it is so beyond re-interpreting Zhyhi's work. Nichiren also claims the relationship is "unfathomable and beyond comprehension"- presumably a realization that Nichiren has had and is unable to communicate.

Nichiren invokes Zhyhi as an authority and puts him in context of the claimed supremacy of the Lotus Sutra but I don't understand why it is necesarily the case. This method of invocation of authority in support of a doctrinal position is common, Stone presents many examples of it as a method of legitimization used by the Kamakura schools- perhaps its use as a method is common elsewhere too.
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Re: Able to awaken to our innate Buddha-nature through our actual practice?

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LastLegend wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 3:46 am Have you read other Mahayana Sutras?
Yes. I have read many of the other Sutras, the Pure Land Sutras, the Diamond and Heart Sutras, the Nirvana Sutra and others. They are all contained in Namu Myoho renge kyo.

Mark
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