how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

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Minobu
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how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

I am seriously going to say something that none of us have said concerning the Nam Namu issue.

Yesterday whilst reading Murano's book in the section of the Mandala and the section on the Eternal Buddha, it came to me .

The five characters ,Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo ,is the title of the Lotus Sutra

The seven characters Nam Mu Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo is the Odaimoku.

So this is what happened...people...common people with this teaching in hand, after Nichiren's death, started to change stuff and stuff ..it becomes ok to do such and such.

Narwhal telling us recently he finds certain aspects of Nichiren's teachings just fear mongering,

ShoShu teaching that Lord Guru Sakyamuni the Eternal Buddha is of no use or a junk buddha no longer in use. He is now inconsequential

Now without Nam Mu there is no Odaimoku.

And as we know the Odaimoku is The Eternal Buddha Lord Sakyamuni ..

so we find that as we started to chant faster and faster the U sound disappears...Not only that but it is ok to just say Nam and no longer include the kanji symbol for MU ..what ever meaning is in that Kanji character is of no use to some...it's easier to chant omitting it completely

In reality it's not about how it sounds it is about what you chant, and the meaning innate to it .

Those two characters Nam Mu have a deep innate meaning...people go oh the meat of the chant is MyoHo RenGe Kyo and nam and namu are the same meaning...

ignoring the fact that these characters are of themselves what makes up the real meaning of Odaimoku..that being The Eternal Buddha ...the five characters by themselves are the title ..in order for it to become Odaimoku you add Nam Mu characters...not just Nam...

Each of the characters in Odaimoku hold huge meaning...the act of dropping one cause ..meh we are still devoting ourselves to the chant is so off base..What sort of devotion is that anyway? ...flake city ! .

The Odaimoku only becomes Odaimoku with all seven characters...the fact people have dropped one seems of no consequence and the intelligentia have deemed it so. They explain it away like it's of no consequence.

Well folks guess what else...

you strive to become a Bodhisattva of the Earth , call yourself one of these...and yet you ignore the fact that These Bodhisattvas when emerging from the Earth greeted Lord Sakyamuni Buddha because they all knew Him as their Teacher...

If you take faith in Lord Sakyamuni Buddha as The Gohonzon in your heart....He will appear in your heart and if you are diligent become part of His Sangha...proving who you really are...

But thinking others are this Buddha who taught the Four Leaders and had relationship with all the BOA does not lead you to becoming part and parcel to His Sangha.....


so anyone got any other changes to discuss.

and to anyone who says we have been down this route too many times ...show me where anyone points out without the 7 characters you only end up with the title and not The Eternal Buddha...it has not been pointed out ...
Each character holds huge meaning ....slipping one out and using the Intelligentia to explain it away and dismiss a character as not really necessary is huge ...HUGE !


The Eternal Buddha is not the title of The Lotus Sutra... The Eternal Buddha manifests with strong faith in The Odaimoku, and the realization that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Original Buddha depicted down the centre of Gohonzon in 7 characters for a reason.
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Minobu
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

We know Nichiren Shonin when wetting His ink stone and Writing about Namu Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo He never dropped the Mu character .
Yet to reinforce it is ok to chant with only Nam when translating His Gosho and Writings some people omit the Mu in the Gosho . It makes the common uneducated folk feel like it is ok cause Nichiren Shonin wrote it this way...See look at the translation it's not Nam Mu it's nam only...

But He never did...

i think the least one can do is to translate these writings as close as possible to the Original Intent .

the other thing is this...

One of the reason Shoshu believes Nichiren Shonin to be The Eternal Buddha is the way it is inscribed on their Dai Gohonzon..

It's an anomaly that Nichiren Shonin's Signature touches the Odaimoku .

All Gohonzons The Odaimoku is inscribed with all the Characters touching one another...A symbol They Are One Thing ...

His signature is always a little off to the side and never touching..

because of it touching on The Dai gohonzon they get the whole ..oh look He is showing us He is The Eternal Buddha...

another reason to see He never inscribed the Dai Gohonzon..


But the big take away is this ....The 7 Characters touch each other ....think about it...

Then you got me ...if you recall...noticing the 3 drops or strokes that no one can interpret ...coming off the Odaimoku and seemingly dripping into Nichiren Shonin's Signature...on the Shutei Gohonzon..

the verdict is still out on that one as to why...
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by _johnarundel_ »

Hey Minobu,

Hope all is well.

Nichiren Daishonin's signature right under the Daimoku is not only on the Dai-Gohonzon. Also, if you look at most of Nikko Shonin's Gohonzons, the signature Nichiren is right under the Daimoku. Based on the doctrines of Nichiren Shoshu, I personally do not feel it is appropriate to post a picture of Nikko Shonin's Gohonzon, but you can look it up on the internet and you will see what I am saying.
"The five characters of Myoho-Renge-Kyo are the core of the Lotus Sutra and the origin of all Buddhas throughout the entire world. Upon seeing the signs that these five characters now must be propagated, I, Nichiren, have set the precedent, today, at the beginning of the Latter Day of the Law."

- Nichiren Daishonin, “Shuju onfurumai-gosho” 種種御振舞御書


https://www.nichirenshoshu.or.jp/eng/daishonin.html
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Bois de Santal
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Bois de Santal »

I can assure you that the characters for Nam Mu do not have huge meaning. They were chosen for the approximation of their sound to the sanskrit Namas. They evidently do have some meaning but I have never yet heard any explanation of why those two in particular were chosen. Suffice to say that many characters can have the pronunciation 'Nam' and many others can have the pronunciation 'Mu' so there was some logic used to decide which of the candidates would be chosen.

These characters were chosen by Chinese sages well over 1500 years ago. And the pronunciation then was certainly not Namu. The characters were borrowed and the pronunciation was 'japonified'. (is that a word? better than japanesed, anyway.) Given the huge changes in pronunciation over the centuries it is quite probably that Nichiren never exactly chanted 'Namu' either.

But above all you need to get used to the fact that chinese characters do not have a fixed pronunciation. Every region from vietnam through the vastness of china, into korea and over into japan use or have used chinese characters for hundreds of years and their pronunciation has differed from region to region and evolved over time.

The other factor you need to consider is that the number of romanised syllables of chinese characters has never matched the number of characters.

The daimoku is not a mantra and should never be considered as such. But the japanese version does have a pleasing harmonious flow to it, with or without the first 'u'. It trips off the tongue more easily than Namas Saddharma Pundarike sutram, that's for sure. (Or maybe not - check out these videos on youtube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8-RJw9G7Tc and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zIf5aIF_rk ).
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Queequeg »

NO CHARACTERS ARE DROPPED. THE PRONUNCIATION CHANGES, THAT IS ALL. CHINESE CHARACTERS ARE NOT PHONETIC. THEY ARE IDEOGRAMS. unless they are phonetic.

STOP CONFUSING YOURSELF AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO KNOWS EVEN LESS THAN YOU.

南無妙法蓮華経 = namumyohorengekyo
南無妙法蓮華経 = nammyohorengekyo
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Queequeg
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Queequeg »

Here is a very simple rule that will help all of you navigate each other's attachments:

Ask the host how they say it. Follow their lead in their home. If you're on neutral ground, defer to the older person.

If this is what you get stuck on, then you're completely missing the point of Ekayana.

This is the kind of nonsense that brought me to say, "Enough. I'm done." You expect to save sentient beings, but only if they meet you on your ground. This is the poison. This is Mara. These are the devils and obstacles. This is a circular firing squad. I took the dictum - look at their lives to see the truth of their Dharma. I looked for 46 years. All I saw was arguments, schism, self destruction. Well, not all. That's what made leaving hard. But when it mattered, when there was pride on the line, or money, or whatever samsaric carrot, it was intolerance and schism.

How do you expect to encourage anyone in their faith? A person comes with an ember of faith and your blast of hot air makes it go out.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Minobu
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

_johnarundel_ wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:27 pm Hey Minobu,

Hope all is well.

Nichiren Daishonin's signature right under the Daimoku is not only on the Dai-Gohonzon. Also, if you look at most of Nikko Shonin's Gohonzons, the signature Nichiren is right under the Daimoku. Based on the doctrines of Nichiren Shoshu, I personally do not feel it is appropriate to post a picture of Nikko Shonin's Gohonzon, but you can look it up on the internet and you will see what I am saying.
it's about the Sig actually touching the Odaimoku.
None inscribed by Nichiren Shonin do this...

The Odaimoku is an Entity , if you recall the Gosho..

So there is a reason that if you look at Gohonzon characters don't touch each other except when it comes to the ODaimoku ..

which shows you something else....think....it's an Entity ...A Living entity that people think it is ok to play around with...

People think oh it's just the same Nam Nam Mu ...it's all about sound...

I no longer buy into it...

these Kanji , even i, ignorant as Q thinks i am, know they are pictures...So lets take some of the picture out...

not me anymore...

Each Character can be talked about in depth...the realization of Each character is Huge...

So ok so you are comfortable with dropping it ...even though Nichiren shonin never did...you people obviously know better...
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:00 pm So lets take some of the picture out...
Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:50 pm NO CHARACTERS ARE DROPPED. THE PRONUNCIATION CHANGES, THAT IS ALL. CHINESE CHARACTERS ARE NOT PHONETIC. THEY ARE IDEOGRAMS. unless they are phonetic.

STOP CONFUSING YOURSELF AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO KNOWS EVEN LESS THAN YOU.

南無妙法蓮華経 = namumyohorengekyo
南無妙法蓮華経 = nammyohorengekyo
See ya folks. I'm done with it.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by narhwal90 »

Minobu, as I've suggested many times, get a copy of the Mandala Workshop books. They show a huge variety of variations of gohonzon formats by Nichiren's hand, plus dozens of others by his chief disciples too. Differences between and among them are summarized and accounted for, and tracked by when created, lineages that keep them, if and how they are copied and used as formats for other gohonzons. Errors and discrepancies between the originals and copies, forgeries and some obscure variations are also discussed.

It profoundly changed my view of what a gohonzon is. Nichiren's calligraphic style changed a lot over the years, as did his composition methods.
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:50 pm NO CHARACTERS ARE DROPPED. THE PRONUNCIATION CHANGES, THAT IS ALL. CHINESE CHARACTERS ARE NOT PHONETIC. THEY ARE IDEOGRAMS. unless they are phonetic.

STOP CONFUSING YOURSELF AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO KNOWS EVEN LESS THAN YOU.

南無妙法蓮華経 = namumyohorengekyo
南無妙法蓮華経 = nammyohorengekyo
so are you saying that the Mu character 無 can be tossed out and you still will get the the same meaning totally...

are you saying that this character 無 is meaningless....

are you saying there was never a need to place this 無 after this 南 for it is moot...

i don't think so...
i think in order to get the complete meaning behind placing this 南無 in front of the title of the Lotus Sutra does something....like turn it into ODaimoku and allow for The Entity to Exist ....

and yet because the word is devotion / taking refuge...it's not that important...you can just blur it out or not use it at all...who made up this stuff?

Have you ever thought that just maybe The Entity demands the full complement of the Seven Kanji Letters to actually become ODaimoku..


do you realize that without these two character 南無 you don't have the Entity , just a title of a Sutra...

it all developed after Nichiren Shonin passed ...from fast chanting....and it got blurred and common mortals decide it does not matter ...



now to the crux ....if one thinks that it is matter that no ideograms are dropped ...why instruct people to chant nam only...like this man teaches...

the Title is chant Daimoku properly...never mentions Namu...it seems he drops one of ideograms in his lecture...albeit it is translation but why not use the 2 ideograms as Nichiren did.






sorry but insisting that no ideograms are being dropped and yet it took me 45 years to find out why....

as i said the inteligencia think they know better than Bodhisattva Leaders...
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:14 pm Minobu, as I've suggested many times, get a copy of the Mandala Workshop books. They show a huge variety of variations of gohonzon formats by Nichiren's hand, plus dozens of others by his chief disciples too. Differences between and among them are summarized and accounted for, and tracked by when created, lineages that keep them, if and how they are copied and used as formats for other gohonzons. Errors and discrepancies between the originals and copies, forgeries and some obscure variations are also discussed.

It profoundly changed my view of what a gohonzon is. Nichiren's calligraphic style changed a lot over the years, as did his composition methods.
I'm talking about the characters touching each other...

I say none of authentique Gohonzon inscribed by Nichiren Shonin have His Sig touching the ODaimoku...if you want to show me one for sure i will have a deep think...But I think Rev Murano explained it quite lucidly.
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by narhwal90 »

OK Minobu, have you looked at the Mandala Workshop books to tell? Lots more there than on the gohonzon-shu pages.

FWIW, the Mandala Worksthop folks are more interested in forensic analysis of the changes in composition; why Nichiren selected some of the notables vs others, when they showed up and disappeared, what his calligraphic errors were. His signature is discussed, but it is not a huge issue... his signature is simply part of the composition. Wide variation is seen with the letters overlaying one another. Sometimes which lines overlay others are used to to differentiate between copies and originals, composed vs printed and so on.
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:24 pm OK Minobu, have you looked at the Mandala Workshop books to tell? Lots more there than on the gohonzon-shu pages.

FWIW, the Mandala Worksthop folks are more interested in forensic analysis of the changes in composition; why Nichiren selected some of the notables vs others, when they showed up and disappeared, what his calligraphic errors were. His signature is discussed, but it is not a huge issue... his signature is simply part of the composition. Wide variation is seen with the letters overlaying one another. Sometimes which lines overlay others are used to to differentiate between copies and originals, composed vs printed and so on.
So it should be easy for you to show me one authentique Gohonzon with His Sig actually touching
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by narhwal90 »

Nah, not how it works. You make the claim, you prove it. Suggest you buy the Mandala Workshop books and look into it. I go in there periodically to read up on the originals, the variations etc. It is very interesting. IIRC I looked into this once when you first brought up the sig stuff, we exchanged some posts on it. The WOrkshop books are very careful to point out when there are sectarian issues, and there were none relating to his sig.
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:00 pm it's about the Sig actually touching the Odaimoku.
None inscribed by Nichiren Shonin do this...
101, 102, 122
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

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Lord have mercy.
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Shotenzenjin »

I really don't understand the fuss here. No characters are dropped. QQ even demonstrated it.

No characters are dropped.
Pronunciation changes

It's really simple

Don't get so caught up in it. It's just slander causing division.
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Like smoke that reaches far beyond the clouds.--nichimoku shonin. Third high priest of Nichiren Shoshu

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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:41 pm I really don't understand the fuss here. No characters are dropped. QQ even demonstrated it.

No characters are dropped.
Pronunciation changes

It's really simple

Don't get so caught up in it. It's just slander causing division.
How is this slander
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Minobu
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:39 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:00 pm it's about the Sig actually touching the Odaimoku.
None inscribed by Nichiren Shonin do this...
101, 102, 122
So he does care :group: :group: :hug:
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Bois de Santal »

Minobu wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:17 pm the Title is chant Daimoku properly...never mentions Namu...it seems he drops one of ideograms in his lecture...albeit it is translation but why not use the 2 ideograms as Nichiren did.
Ideograms are just a form of writing. Their pronunciation is fixed neither in time nor place. And nowhere outside of Japan that uses or has used the chinese writing system will pronounce 南無 as either Nam or Namu.

As I indicated earlier, the daimoku is not a mantra. It is the title of the lotus sutra. The sanskrit based version, as well as any of the 'chinese' versions are just as valuable as the japanese version. And if we could come up with an english version that scanned nicely it too would be correct.
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