how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

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Shotenzenjin
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Shotenzenjin »

No one is muzzling anyone
Generation's shall pass, our determination shall grow, at the foot of Mount Fuji
Like smoke that reaches far beyond the clouds.--nichimoku shonin. Third high priest of Nichiren Shoshu

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Introduction to Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism
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illarraza
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:17 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:23 am 南: な = "na"
無: む = "mu"

Might the "m" in "nam" be considered a contraction of 無 rather than an elimination of it? The "m" sound is part of 無 rather than 南.

If both "it's" and "it is" are considered valid, might both "nam" and "namu" be considered valid?
I've been having trouble trying to say NA Mu Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo as fast as possible so the u sound disappears..

it won't happen for me. You try it....

then just now whilst chanting i recalled this post..

the Kanji are NA and Mu ...


ok also fair the well everyone ..it's been nice...
I wasn't going to post anymore btw us this is it...

oddly enough ....

but it sums me up...a stickler for the original pure teachings...
i want to thank Illarazza.. trust me he is a gem and should be listened to..not muzzled ..

also big shout out to tkp67 who brought me to a more compassionate place of reverence for anyone practicing or trying to practice This Buddhism .

He also should not be muzzled or made fun of his art ..he produces Nichiren Shonin's teachings as an internet art form...i get him..

:heart: :group: :heart:
Dogs are muzzled Minobu. Bodhisattvas of the essential teachings are hated. We can't be muzzled. Even on Sado, Nichiren wrote his most important writings.

Mark
illarraza
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by illarraza »

illarraza wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:10 am
Minobu wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:17 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:23 am 南: な = "na"
無: む = "mu"

Might the "m" in "nam" be considered a contraction of 無 rather than an elimination of it? The "m" sound is part of 無 rather than 南.

If both "it's" and "it is" are considered valid, might both "nam" and "namu" be considered valid?
I've been having trouble trying to say NA Mu Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo as fast as possible so the u sound disappears..

it won't happen for me. You try it....

then just now whilst chanting i recalled this post..

the Kanji are NA and Mu ...


ok also fair the well everyone ..it's been nice...
I wasn't going to post anymore btw us this is it...

oddly enough ....

but it sums me up...a stickler for the original pure teachings...
i want to thank Illarazza.. trust me he is a gem and should be listened to..not muzzled ..

also big shout out to tkp67 who brought me to a more compassionate place of reverence for anyone practicing or trying to practice This Buddhism .

He also should not be muzzled or made fun of his art ..he produces Nichiren Shonin's teachings as an internet art form...i get him..

:heart: :group: :heart:
Dogs are muzzled Minobu. Bodhisattvas of the essential teachings are hated. We can't be muzzled. Even on Sado, Nichiren wrote his most important writings.

Mark
Truthfully, all I do is copy and paste the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren, in deference to my Masters. But thank you for the complement though praise makes me uncomfortable. Nichiren taught, "A blue fly, if it clings to the tail of a thoroughbred horse, can travel ten thousand miles, and the green ivy that twines around the tall pine can grow to a thousand feet," - Establishing the Correct Law for the Peace of the Land.

Mark
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by tkp67 »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Thu Dec 10, 2020 8:41 pm I really don't understand the fuss here. No characters are dropped. QQ even demonstrated it.

No characters are dropped.
Pronunciation changes

It's really simple
I also think it is important to understand these things through cause and effect is also important. As important is that it is reported through the lens of one's own cause, conditions and capacity.

Here in America just a few decades after these writings where made available in English this teaching is being propagated and pointing to the Lotus Sutra. To have this teaching follow an insurgence of other traditions shortly there after is a miracle. The fact that it points to the same sutra proof of the teachings potency end to end.

Since I am greatly ignorant of asain language I must report this as it has unfolded within my own existence and how I view it unfolding in the world I experience.

The daimoku consists of two main components nam(u) and myoho renge kyo. Nam(u) is a self designation of dedication to the later which is the wonderful law of the lotus itself.

I have thought deeply on the differential and have found a point or two that might sway my own position in my own practice. I do not believe it makes or breaks a practice. It most definitely is not grounds to disparage and part of the process or the diversity of practices within the Nichiren traditions.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Caoimhghín »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:23 am 南: な = "na"
無: む = "mu"

Might the "m" in "nam" be considered a contraction of 無 rather than an elimination of it? The "m" sound is part of 無 rather than 南.
Definitely. Nam/namu is an issue of two different Japanese accents and vainglorious prelest causing some people to double-down on their modern accent being "correct" and others' accents being wrong all despite the fact that we know Ven Nichiren would not have pronounced the Chinese in either manner. He was a medieval. He didn't speak modern Japanese. His Japanese has all sorts of vowel clusters that get straighted out to "yо̄" like in "myо̄hо̄," which he pronounced something like "*mieuhau."

Japanese has morae, not syllables. "M" and "n" are their own morae and can occuppy what looks like a syllable all on it's own.

Bakaishon is "vacation" in Japaenglish. It has five morae.

1 - ba
2 - ka
3 - i
4 - sho
5 - n

The "n" behaves like its own syllable. It has its own timing unit. That's how some accents of Japanese stretch "n" and "m" through the whispered "u" (a "u" in this position is always whispered in Japanese, making it even easier for the "u" to be dropped).
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Caoimhghín
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Caoimhghín »

I can't edit the old post anymore. I miss the older longer editing time.

The "u" rules are actually a lot more complicated, as the added link will show. The extended "m" mora that "eats" the "u" is a combination of pronouncing the letter in whispered register combined with the fact that this whisper is between two M's.

namu myō [etc.]

It becomes nammyō [etc.]

The two M's are gemination to show length. But this is only in some accents.

It is similar to how some say, more "properly," "Sasuke," and some say "Sasske," to use a frivolous example from Japanese cartoons.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Minobu
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

I came across a nice explanation from Reverend Senchu Murano's book Questions and answers on Nichiren Buddhism.
He was asked about Nichiren Shonin being intolerant towards other Buddhists in Japan. Many a thing has been said about this.

He answered quite nicely ..
Nichiren was intolerant only towards the Buddhists who ignored the EternaL Sakyamuni Buddha and slandered the Lotus Sutra in which the eternity of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is expounded .Very few worshiped the Eternal Buddha Sakyamuni at the time of Nichiren. Even TenDai worshiped other Buddhas. Nichiren criticized the Tendai sect of the day . Therefore Nichiren was thought to be intolerant of everybody
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 3:09 pm
FiveSkandhas wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:23 am 南: な = "na"
無: む = "mu"

Might the "m" in "nam" be considered a contraction of 無 rather than an elimination of it? The "m" sound is part of 無 rather than 南.
Definitely. Nam/namu is an issue of two different Japanese accents and vainglorious prelest causing some people to double-down on their modern accent being "correct" and others' accents being wrong all despite the fact that we know Ven Nichiren would not have pronounced the Chinese in either manner. He was a medieval. He didn't speak modern Japanese. His Japanese has all sorts of vowel clusters that get straighted out to "yо̄" like in "myо̄hо̄," which he pronounced something like "*mieuhau."

Japanese has morae, not syllables. "M" and "n" are their own morae and can occuppy what looks like a syllable all on it's own.

Bakaishon is "vacation" in Japaenglish. It has five morae.

1 - ba
2 - ka
3 - i
4 - sho
5 - n

The "n" behaves like its own syllable. It has its own timing unit. That's how some accents of Japanese stretch "n" and "m" through the whispered "u" (a "u" in this position is always whispered in Japanese, making it even easier for the "u" to be dropped).
Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 4:13 pm I can't edit the old post anymore. I miss the older longer editing time.

The "u" rules are actually a lot more complicated, as the added link will show. The extended "m" mora that "eats" the "u" is a combination of pronouncing the letter in whispered register combined with the fact that this whisper is between two M's.

namu myō [etc.]

It becomes nammyō [etc.]

The two M's are gemination to show length. But this is only in some accents.

It is similar to how some say, more "properly," "Sasuke," and some say "Sasske," to use a frivolous example from Japanese cartoons.

first i would ask if what we actually are reciting is Japanese ? i heard it was some Sino Japanese or sino Russian ...

secound

This whole accent thing and pronounciation thing might be some people's bag concerning the way Odaimoku is recited .

As for me , the concept of the U sound being dropped due to speed chanting , is absurd to me.

It's not Nam U the characters are Na Mu ..i've tried my best to chant as fast as i can and see if the u sounds slips away..
to me it doesn't happen and cannot happen once i became aware of the MU character.

For me it's no about sound or accent it's about meaning and volition . For me now that i know for sure it is seven Kanji characters , each with deep meaning i cannot drop one....in order to chant nam myoho .... you drop the u sound...but it isn't namu is it ? It's Na Mu ..So this airy fairy concept of it's all ok we all do it....ok for some not for me...

So for me the least I can do is properly try to pronounce the Characters that make up taking refuge. It does me well ...i'm not into this fast chanting no meditation involved just blurt out the ODaimoku and think about what ever you want...

The ODaimoku becomes a whole other thing... the true meaning behind the the Kanji Characters NA MU becomes more manifest .. More meditative , more precise and right on target due to the beauty of pictograms...

Then because you do it slowly it becomes more meditative...why speed chant anyway? ..feels good...but it's flakey as hell...you can't drop the u sound if you know it is MU ...

I think it is all in the lash back that Lotus Sutra gets....some people think this Buddhism is too shallow and they opt instead to go the tendai route after a life time of chanting...thats a faith thing...Nichiren Shonin figured out what aspect of TenDai was Lotus Buddhism and what aspect was not...hence He showed us The True Way.

thats me...

For me i want to Na Mu The title of the Lotus Sutra...pronounce it so that i am trying my best at taking refuge...



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Minobu
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

So i did not want to come here anymore.... i don't like the vibe...
but i started this thread and wanted to finish these important aspects... i wanted to show how changing the teaching affects people...

Nichiren was so devout to Lord Guru Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha . His entire life was a testament to this.
He truly was the Great Bodhisattva that followed Lord Guru Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha to the enth degree.

He could not have done more to bring this Dharma Reality to this Saha World...

Nichiren Shonin never faltered in His absolute devotion to Lord Guru Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha .

Something to think about .

Lord Guru Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha wanted to transfer The Wonderful Dharma to someone. Hearing this many Bodhisattvas offered themselves ,but Lord Guru Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha said no that there were proper persons for this.

and we all know who was their leader and who He leads.
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Caoimhghín »

Minobu wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:04 pm first i would ask if what we actually are reciting is Japanese ? i heard it was some Sino Japanese or sino Russian ...
It's certainly not a kind of Russian. You can call it Chinese. You can call it Japanese. If you are going to call it one or the other, you would call it Japanese, because no one in China has ever traditionally pronounced Chinese in such a way. What you are reciting is called either kan'on or go'on, and is a Japanese way of pronouncing Classical Chinese. I'm not sure if the gongyo is exclusively in kan'on or go'on or is in a mix. The two of those are Japanese ways of pronouncing Chinese from different time periods.

So you are reading Chinese and pronouncing it in a modern way of pronouncing a historical Japanese way of pronouncing Chinese.
Minobu wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:04 pm secound

This whole accent thing and pronounciation thing might be some people's bag concerning the way Odaimoku is recited .

As for me , the concept of the U sound being dropped due to speed chanting , is absurd to me.

It's not Nam U the characters are Na Mu
So you have half right. The first character is "na," not "nam."

When people say "nam myōhō [etc.]," the reading is:

妙 法 蓮 華 經
na m myō hō re n ge kyō
na mu myō hō re n ge kyō

There are eight morae in total, seven kanji, and either six or seven "syllables," if we want to wrongly conceive of Japanese as a language with the same kind of syllables as English.

There might be as many as 11 morae, depending on if the vowel-lengthening formally adds morae or not.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:10 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:04 pm first i would ask if what we actually are reciting is Japanese ? i heard it was some Sino Japanese or sino Russian ...
It's certainly not a kind of Russian. You can call it Chinese. You can call it Japanese. If you are going to call it one or the other, you would call it Japanese, because no one in China has ever traditionally pronounced Chinese in such a way. What you are reciting is called either kan'on or go'on, and is a Japanese way of pronouncing Classical Chinese. I'm not sure if the gongyo is exclusively in kan'on or go'on or is in a mix. The two of those are Japanese ways of pronouncing Chinese from different time periods.

So you are reading Chinese and pronouncing it in a modern way of pronouncing a historical Japanese way of pronouncing Chinese.
Minobu wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:04 pm secound

This whole accent thing and pronounciation thing might be some people's bag concerning the way Odaimoku is recited .

As for me , the concept of the U sound being dropped due to speed chanting , is absurd to me.

It's not Nam U the characters are Na Mu
So you have half right. The first character is "na," not "nam."

When people say "nam myōhō [etc.]," the reading is:

妙 法 蓮 華 經
na m myō hō re n ge kyō
na mu myō hō re n ge kyō

There are eight morae in total, seven kanji, and either six or seven "syllables," if we want to wrongly conceive of Japanese as a language with the same kind of syllables as English.

There might be as many as 11 morae, depending on if the vowel-lengthening formally adds morae or not.
thank you ...i always trust your judgement when it comes to translation issues...how you know all this stuff is a wonder to me ...I appreciate your efforts and what you have done to learn this and then share...awesome..

Can you actually see this namu for generations turning into nam because of fast chanting as real or fictitious...it makes no sense.

As you know Nichiren's teachings have been altered and altered so many times ..this comment about fast chanting seems like a ruse ..

also ...

what Kangi is just nam...i don;t think there is a Kanji for just Nam...in fact from what i gahter from what you wrote there are only two Kanji's to use in order to get the full meaning ...the Na with the Mu kanji..
the two together give one the complete meaning...


Now as you know most westerners have not a clue as to what is on Gohonzon ...

I was taught it was something like Jungian archetypes... The collective subconscious can produce the meaning if you chant to Gohonzon and all the Kanji are manifest in your life even though you have no clue as to what they mean...

So why would you take two Kanji's and contract them to a sound with absolute no kanji that is Nam that can trigger the Jungian experience .....

To me this is all due to the fact Nichiren Shonin had enemies..

They had court and officials and Lords and people of influence who would do anything to destroy His Teachings.

I think The creation of counterfeit ideas concerning This Buddhism was plotted out over time to weaken the meaning and leave it in disarray and confusion...

Look at what we have today...people who dismiss the Actual Buddha that Nichiren Shonin devoted all his life to...and then make up a whole new paradigm to chant to ...which allows one to not benefit from the full meaning of the Practice...


for lack of articulation ...to meld with our Lord Guru Lord Sakyamuni Buddha...

you at least have to recognize the Fact of Who Nichiren Shonin was teaching you to pray to...or pray with ...

Because of the confused sects it might take some a few lifetimes to realize the Truth.

It's all Karmic i guess.

anyway...once i get this whole nam namu thing straight ...i can leave in peace...


again thanks for all your study and work towards learning this stuff.

you are my Gold Standard and was hoping you popped into this thread.
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:10 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:04 pm first i would ask if what we actually are reciting is Japanese ? i heard it was some Sino Japanese or sino Russian ...
It's certainly not a kind of Russian. You can call it Chinese. You can call it Japanese. If you are going to call it one or the other, you would call it Japanese, because no one in China has ever traditionally pronounced Chinese in such a way. What you are reciting is called either kan'on or go'on, and is a Japanese way of pronouncing Classical Chinese. I'm not sure if the gongyo is exclusively in kan'on or go'on or is in a mix. The two of those are Japanese ways of pronouncing Chinese from different time periods.

So you are reading Chinese and pronouncing it in a modern way of pronouncing a historical Japanese way of pronouncing Chinese.
Minobu wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:04 pm secound

This whole accent thing and pronounciation thing might be some people's bag concerning the way Odaimoku is recited .

As for me , the concept of the U sound being dropped due to speed chanting , is absurd to me.

It's not Nam U the characters are Na Mu
So you have half right. The first character is "na," not "nam."

When people say "nam myōhō [etc.]," the reading is:

妙 法 蓮 華 經
na m myō hō re n ge kyō
na mu myō hō re n ge kyō

There are eight morae in total, seven kanji, and either six or seven "syllables," if we want to wrongly conceive of Japanese as a language with the same kind of syllables as English.

There might be as many as 11 morae, depending on if the vowel-lengthening formally adds morae or not.
I don't know if you can answer this .

But why would people think that this contraction word sound Nam would even come anywhere near the value of the meaning of the two Kanji letters.

it is a meaningless sound...only inferred by people of ignorance that it means the same thing...

Na Mu these two characters are where we derive the full meaning...Nam is some made up thoing from people fast chanting??? so they say...it is a meaningless sound except in the minds that have been told otherwise...

for me the whole issue shows a total lack of respect and showing about as much devotion as is least possible...just blurr over the word and in a few hundred years people will not know the difference...

why hold unto such a paradigm...

there is no kanji for the nam sound...or is there...i don;t think so ..it comes down to SLANG ....its the same narrative as any slang...

so Nam is slang for Na Mu ...and this is supposed to be devotional....

for years i thought it was all just illarazza being illarazza and followed the behind scenes slander of this man...

now it becomes clear it is human flakeyness to enth degree and i was wrong in ganging up on the guy...he has always had a hard time up front and behind the scenes...

So i correct my devotional aspect to chanting The Sacred ODaimoku..

i'm happier and feel like i am doing the ODaimoku a service instead of disregarding the level of devotion one wishes to place before The Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo...
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Shotenzenjin »

Minobu wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:24 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:10 pm
Minobu wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:04 pm first i would ask if what we actually are reciting is Japanese ? i heard it was some Sino Japanese or sino Russian ...
It's certainly not a kind of Russian. You can call it Chinese. You can call it Japanese. If you are going to call it one or the other, you would call it Japanese, because no one in China has ever traditionally pronounced Chinese in such a way. What you are reciting is called either kan'on or go'on, and is a Japanese way of pronouncing Classical Chinese. I'm not sure if the gongyo is exclusively in kan'on or go'on or is in a mix. The two of those are Japanese ways of pronouncing Chinese from different time periods.

So you are reading Chinese and pronouncing it in a modern way of pronouncing a historical Japanese way of pronouncing Chinese.
Minobu wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 8:04 pm secound

This whole accent thing and pronounciation thing might be some people's bag concerning the way Odaimoku is recited .

As for me , the concept of the U sound being dropped due to speed chanting , is absurd to me.

It's not Nam U the characters are Na Mu
So you have half right. The first character is "na," not "nam."

When people say "nam myōhō [etc.]," the reading is:

妙 法 蓮 華 經
na m myō hō re n ge kyō
na mu myō hō re n ge kyō

There are eight morae in total, seven kanji, and either six or seven "syllables," if we want to wrongly conceive of Japanese as a language with the same kind of syllables as English.

There might be as many as 11 morae, depending on if the vowel-lengthening formally adds morae or not.
I don't know if you can answer this .

But why would people think that this contraction word sound Nam would even come anywhere near the value of the meaning of the two Kanji letters.

it is a meaningless sound...only inferred by people of ignorance that it means the same thing...

Na Mu these two characters are where we derive the full meaning...Nam is some made up thoing from people fast chanting??? so they say...it is a meaningless sound except in the minds that have been told otherwise...

for me the whole issue shows a total lack of respect and showing about as much devotion as is least possible...just blurr over the word and in a few hundred years people will not know the difference...

why hold unto such a paradigm...

there is no kanji for the nam sound...or is there...i don;t think so ..it comes down to SLANG ....its the same narrative as any slang...

so Nam is slang for Na Mu ...and this is supposed to be devotional....

for years i thought it was all just illarazza being illarazza and followed the behind scenes slander of this man...

now it becomes clear it is human flakeyness to enth degree and i was wrong in ganging up on the guy...he has always had a hard time up front and behind the scenes...

So i correct my devotional aspect to chanting The Sacred ODaimoku..

i'm happier and feel like i am doing the ODaimoku a service instead of disregarding the level of devotion one wishes to place before The Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo...
The idea it's due to fast chanting is just some idea on the internet. That doesn't mean that's the reason for it.

You keep jumping on that as some bone or what ever but it was just an idea from a Nichiren shu member to boot discussing what he thought was the why of it.

So you knew about this for years and thought it was just illarazza harping?

You claimed you just found out about it recently which I find hard to believe. And I even asked if you chanted namu in soka gakki like Nichiren shoshu chants at certain times during gongyo namu.
Generation's shall pass, our determination shall grow, at the foot of Mount Fuji
Like smoke that reaches far beyond the clouds.--nichimoku shonin. Third high priest of Nichiren Shoshu

Hokekko of true Buddhism https://nstny.org

Introduction to Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... VKyEQ_cxK9
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Caoimhghín »

I think the reason why namu can so easily become nam is because it is not really a Japanese word, nor is it a Chinese word. For lack of a better term, to your average medieval Japanese, it was a "magical non-word" from the West with supernatural effect. As such, arguably the only thing prescribing how it ought to be pronounced is consensus among Japanese speakers. Ven Nichiren doesn't seem a strickler for pronunciation. Perhaps that is why he went with "namu myōhō renge kyō" and not something like "namo sadamo pundarika sutsu (that is just a guess how Japanese would transliterate it).

You say that "nam" is slang for "namu," but "namu" is slang for "nanmu/nammu" with a longer M, possibly a consonant cluster "nm." That is a historical pronunciation Ven Nichiren might have used. If you think that "mu" has a sacred meaning and ought not be "m," that's your own take, but I can't think of a time when Ven Nichiren says:

"Don't you recite that Daimoku with your lazy lowly farmer's accent that drops U's all the time." <-- AFAIK that is not a concern of Ven Nichiren.

The only reason why "nam myō" happens is because "myōhō" starts with an M.

Absolutely no one AFAIK ever says "nam amida butsu" for instance. But if Amida's name were "Mamida" instead, some Japanese would absolutely say "nam mamida."

It's not going to work you using your English or French phonetics and speaking fast to naturally produce it. I don't want to assume, but you likely pronounce "mu" like the English word "moo" rhyming with "clue." The Japanese actually has a completely different vowel and it is spoken in a register (soto voce) that English doesn't use in normal speech.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Minobu
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:51 pm I think the reason why namu can so easily become nam is because it is not really a Japanese word, nor is it a Chinese word. For lack of a better term, to your average medieval Japanese, it was a "magical non-word" from the West with supernatural effect. As such, arguably the only thing prescribing how it ought to be pronounced is consensus among Japanese speakers. Ven Nichiren doesn't seem a strickler for pronunciation. Perhaps that is why he went with "namu myōhō renge kyō" and not something like "namo sadamo pundarika sutsu (that is just a guess how Japanese would transliterate it).

You say that "nam" is slang for "namu," but "namu" is slang for "nanmu/nammu" with a longer M, possibly a consonant cluster "nm." That is a historical pronunciation Ven Nichiren might have used. If you think that "mu" has a sacred meaning and ought not be "m," that's your own take, but I can't think of a time when Ven Nichiren says:

"Don't you recite that Daimoku with your lazy lowly farmer's accent that drops U's all the time." <-- AFAIK that is not a concern of Ven Nichiren.

The only reason why "nam myō" happens is because "myōhō" starts with an M.

Absolutely no one AFAIK ever says "nam amida butsu" for instance. But if Amida's name were "Mamida" instead, some Japanese would absolutely say "nam mamida."

It's not going to work you using your English or French phonetics and speaking fast to naturally produce it. I don't want to assume, but you likely pronounce "mu" like the English word "moo" rhyming with "clue." The Japanese actually has a completely different vowel and it is spoken in a register (soto voce) that English doesn't use in normal speech.
ok i see....
it wasn't lazy farmers that dropped the U sound ...it came from temples chanting fast enough that it blurred out...

Nichiren Shonin did not foresee this happening...and as you said it's a magical word...and being a firm believer in real magik ...i can now live with the contraction...cause real magik is all in the mind....


and to be clear i really am more concerned with the meaning of the Kanji...

for me everything seems so watered down and flakey when it comes to nailing this down...but all that matters to me ...that each character has a specific meaning...even if westerners have no clue as to meaning ...The chanting of ODaimoku makes it happen....that being one generates the meaning of the Character...maybe it's best to use up all the characters given.... ...dropping one when teaching people to chant is weird...just weird...like it's Na Mu Myo Ho Ren Ge Kyo ...at least chant that and if you start to blurr out the U sound at least you are aware of it....

this whole never telling me about this and finding out 45 years after the fact....well it's a karma attack...my fault...

It's like when i thought Nichiren shonin was some Original Buddha because i was taught this....now we all know better...some think it is still cool even though they have been told how this all happened...

so guess when dealing with people like this ...one just has to accept the flakiness...and have faith in their next life they will find the proper teachers...


EDIT


apparently this could be just some new internet idea ...i don't think it has been nailed down as such...no one really knows ...which is suspicious...
it came from temples chanting fast enough that it blurred out..
Last edited by Minobu on Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:44 pm


The idea it's due to fast chanting is just some idea on the internet. That doesn't mean that's the reason for it.
and like i said this is new to me...i too never heard about it...




You keep jumping on that as some bone or what ever but it was just an idea from a Nichiren shu member to boot discussing what he thought was the why of it.
I think i can side with you on this....to me the idea that it got dropped due to fast chanting is absurd...
I think it has more sinister aspect to it...sinister in why do this anyway....like what is the point except degrade the act of taking refuge to something easier to say...


So you knew about this for years and thought it was just illarazza harping?
sort of like people know for years that there are false documents in certain temple sects that are proven to be false.making total false claims about this practice and what it means...they know it's dodgey as hell and yet.....the people ignore this fact to carry on with the narrative .

so like a sheeple i listened to what others had to say about and came to the conclusion that he was just being fanatical....those you tube videos i posted about chanting this way...first time i came across them...i never knew Nichiren Shu carried this on from day 1 ...the people in those videos chant it this way...

You claimed you just found out about it recently which I find hard to believe. And I even asked if you chanted namu in soka gakki like Nichiren shoshu chants at certain times during gongyo namu.
if all you can do is call me out as lier ...well knock yourself out SZ...
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Caoimhghín »

Minobu wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:49 pm ok i see....
it wasn't lazy farmers that dropped the U sound ...it came from temples chanting fast enough that it blurred out...
I think I've accidently communicated the exact opposite of what was intended. By using the farmer example, we can say that "nam" is a little like the English "gotta" instead of "got to."

Pretend that the Daimoku was

"Namu I got to cultivate Buddha-nature."

Some people say "Nam I gotta cultivate Buddha-nature." That's just how they talk.
Minobu wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:49 pm and to be clear i really am more concerned with the meaning of the Kanji...
Well, on one level, "namu" means "South Nothing." That's what the Chinese characters "literally" say. The "na" in namu is the same as the "nam" in "Vietnam."

Is the esoteric meaning tied to the Sanskrit or Chinese?
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Shotenzenjin »

Minobu wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:01 pm
Shotenzenjin wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 6:44 pm


The idea it's due to fast chanting is just some idea on the internet. That doesn't mean that's the reason for it.
and like i said this is new to me...i too never heard about it...




You keep jumping on that as some bone or what ever but it was just an idea from a Nichiren shu member to boot discussing what he thought was the why of it.
I think i can side with you on this....to me the idea that it got dropped due to fast chanting is absurd...
I think it has more sinister aspect to it...sinister in why do this anyway....like what is the point except degrade the act of taking refuge to something easier to say...


So you knew about this for years and thought it was just illarazza harping?
sort of like people know for years that there are false documents in certain temple sects that are proven to be false.making total false claims about this practice and what it means...they know it's dodgey as hell and yet.....the people ignore this fact to carry on with the narrative .

so like a sheeple i listened to what others had to say about and came to the conclusion that he was just being fanatical....those you tube videos i posted about chanting this way...first time i came across them...i never knew Nichiren Shu carried this on from day 1 ...the people in those videos chant it this way...

You claimed you just found out about it recently which I find hard to believe. And I even asked if you chanted namu in soka gakki like Nichiren shoshu chants at certain times during gongyo namu.
if all you can do is call me out as lier ...well knock yourself out SZ...
Alright minobu.

Look the best way forward in this is for you is to simply make peace with the fact other schools and paths chant differently then you do.

It's not sinister. It's just is what it is
Generation's shall pass, our determination shall grow, at the foot of Mount Fuji
Like smoke that reaches far beyond the clouds.--nichimoku shonin. Third high priest of Nichiren Shoshu

Hokekko of true Buddhism https://nstny.org

Introduction to Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... VKyEQ_cxK9
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Minobu
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Minobu »

Caoimhghín wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:05 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 7:49 pm ok i see....
it wasn't lazy farmers that dropped the U sound ...it came from temples chanting fast enough that it blurred out...
I think I've accidently communicated the exact opposite of what was intended. By using the farmer example, we can say that "nam" is a little like the English "gotta" instead of "got to."

Pretend that the Daimoku was

"Namu I got a Buddha-nature."

Some people say "Nam I gotta Buddha-nature." That's just how they talk.
you said something interesting enough...
that the Amida Butsu chant they don;t go nam they all do namu ..always have and always will...none of the Japanese ever thought to do such a thing...
funny that only the despised religion gets the nam thing happening...

why did not the Amida Butsu thing never get contracted...the possibility that if He was named beginning with a M would make it happen is a huge conjecture...

so i'm left with what it really is....messing with the Chant....trying to cause it to be degraded...

It's the nature of this Buddhism to have people try to destroy it...

take me and what a Nichiren ShoShu priest told me when i was new...

i chant too much and stop meditating...take your wife out to a movie instead....his words....i thought he was holy ..and listened to him....


my karma...my fault ultimately.
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Re: how changes affect us in Nichiren Shonin's denominations

Post by Caoimhghín »

Minobu wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:12 pm why did not the Amida Butsu thing never get contracted...the possibility that if He was named beginning with a M would make it happen is a huge conjecture...
The only reason "nam" is said in "nam myoho etc." is because myoho starts with an M. This is a phonological process. If Amida was similar, "nam" would be said. I don't think this is conjecture but we are free to disagree.

The ultimate test would be to find another "namu" phrase with an M following and see how people pronounced it while chanting. It would be best if it were something chanted a lot repeatedly. Like, if there was a "namu maka something" (I don't know if there is).
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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