is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

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Minobu
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is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

so we have people saying Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Eternal Buddha and then we have Shoshu saying Nichiren is The Eternal Buddha of kuon Gango.

but where did this concept of naming Lord Sakyamuni Buddha as the Eternal Buddha originate?

Nichiren Shonin never once said it out right.He did not even allude to such a thing.....all anyone can come up with is interpretation and looking for innuendo in our Master's gosho .

so now i hear the guy who started Kempon Hokke came up with this concept over 100 years after Nichiren Shonin's passing away.

It's his teachings that interpret and prove with innuendo that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Eternal Buddha ..

So like a couple of hundred years after that shoshu goes one further and says no no no ...our innuendo proves Nichiren Daishonin is the Primordial Buddha of Kuon Ganjo..


This is the work of Mara...plain and simple..It misdirects our volition ..

thread after thread and no one can show me actual proof that Nichiren taught these wacked out ideas on Lord Sakyamuni Buddha ...Nichiren Shonin always speaks of when He attained enlightenment.. attained...people ....look up what attained means...how can you Attain primordial Buddha status..

So i put it to you did this all start with the making of a new Nichiren sect called Kempon Hokke..
No Gohonzons inscribed by Nichiren Shonin in this sect...only innuendo...

when i asked illarazza if this guy ever actually met Saint Nichiren Shonin here is the answer.
illarraza wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:20 am
Minobu wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:35 pm
Shotenzenjin wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:16 pm

It was founded 100 years after nichiren Daishonin
ok so it is this guy's take on it...

I think one should have at least studied under Nichiren shonin to actually make a sect.
Yes. He met him through the Opening of the Eyes and the On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings.



Mark

so exactly...He used his interpretation of these sacred Gosho to make up a new sect and introduce us to Lord Sakyamuni Buddha being The Eternal Buddha ...which led to shoshu's take on the idea...

shameful...pure shameful to continue with this corruption of Saint Nichiren Daishonin's teachings.



So i spent years of trying to figure this out and with this one line from illarazza proved they are mistaken and being duped big time from some ego from the past.. Also a big shout out to SZ for giving me the time when this Kempon Hokke sect was formed.

attained means succeed in achieving (something someone has worked on )

illarraza wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:54 am

I beg to differ. The Buddha and Nichiren state:

"Shakyamuni Buddha attained enlightenment at a time even more distant than gohyaku jintengo." (Nichiren, MW, Vol.2, p.268)
His own post proves that the Buddha attained enlightenment...and was not enlightenment...

Nichiren Shonin taught we are all Buddhas by nature....When we attain enlightenment we realize this and the road to Buddhahood becomes clear.
illarraza
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:33 pm so we have people saying Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Eternal Buddha and then we have Shoshu saying Nichiren is The Eternal Buddha of kuon Gango.

but where did this concept of naming Lord Sakyamuni Buddha as the Eternal Buddha originate?

Nichiren Shonin never once said it out right.He did not even allude to such a thing.....all anyone can come up with is interpretation and looking for innuendo in our Master's gosho .

so now i hear the guy who started Kempon Hokke came up with this concept over 100 years after Nichiren Shonin's passing away.

It's his teachings that interpret and prove with innuendo that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Eternal Buddha ..

So like a couple of hundred years after that shoshu goes one further and says no no no ...our innuendo proves Nichiren Daishonin is the Primordial Buddha of Kuon Ganjo..


This is the work of Mara...plain and simple..It misdirects our volition ..

thread after thread and no one can show me actual proof that Nichiren taught these wacked out ideas on Lord Sakyamuni Buddha ...Nichiren Shonin always speaks of when He attained enlightenment.. attained...people ....look up what attained means...how can you Attain primordial Buddha status..

So i put it to you did this all start with the making of a new Nichiren sect called Kempon Hokke..
No Gohonzons inscribed by Nichiren Shonin in this sect...only innuendo...

when i asked illarazza if this guy ever actually met Saint Nichiren Shonin here is the answer.
illarraza wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:20 am
Minobu wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:35 pm
ok so it is this guy's take on it...

I think one should have at least studied under Nichiren shonin to actually make a sect.
Yes. He met him through the Opening of the Eyes and the On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings.



Mark

so exactly...He used his interpretation of these sacred Gosho to make up a new sect and introduce us to Lord Sakyamuni Buddha being The Eternal Buddha ...which led to shoshu's take on the idea...

shameful...pure shameful to continue with this corruption of Saint Nichiren Daishonin's teachings.



So i spent years of trying to figure this out and with this one line from illarazza proved they are mistaken and being duped big time from some ego from the past.. Also a big shout out to SZ for giving me the time when this Kempon Hokke sect was formed.

attained means succeed in achieving (something someone has worked on )

illarraza wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:54 am

I beg to differ. The Buddha and Nichiren state:

"Shakyamuni Buddha attained enlightenment at a time even more distant than gohyaku jintengo." (Nichiren, MW, Vol.2, p.268)
His own post proves that the Buddha attained enlightenment...and was not enlightenment...

Nichiren Shonin taught we are all Buddhas by nature....When we attain enlightenment we realize this and the road to Buddhahood becomes clear.
You must be familiar only with the translations based on the modern Gosho Zenshu (SGI and NST translations). In the NOPPA and Kempon Hokke Gosho we read passages that directly translate as "eternal Buddha"

“Now , when the Eternal Buddha was revealed in the essential section of the Lotus Sutra, this world of endurance (Saha-world) became the Eternal Pure Land, indestructible even by the three calamities of conflagration, flooding, and strong winds, which are said to destroy the world. It transcends the four periods of cosmic change: the kalpa of construction, continuance, destruction and emptiness. Sakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will He be born in the future. He exists forever throughout the past present and future. All those who receive His guidance are one with this Eternal Buddha.” — The True Object of Devotion for Observing the Mind (NOPPA)

"The object of worship (honzon) at the scene of this transmission of "Namu Myo-ho-ren-ge-kyo" from the Eternal Buddha to his original disciples is: Suspended in the sky above the Eternal Buddha Sakyamuni's Saha-world is a stupa of treasures, in which Buddhas Sakyamuni and Taho sit to the left and right of "Myo-ho-ren-ge-kyo". They are waited on by four bodhisattvas such as Jogyo (Superior Practice)representing the original disciples of the Eternal Buddha called out from underground. Four more bodhisattvas including Manjusri and Maitreya, take lower seats as followers, other great and minor bodhisattvas---those converted by the Buddha in the theoretical section and those who came from other lands---resemble numerous people sitting on the ground and looking up at court nobles. also lined up on the ground are Buddhas in manifestation (funjin Buddhas) who gathered together from all the worlds in the universe in praise of the Buddha's preaching, representing provisional Buddhas in their respective lands.(ibid)

“Since Sakyamuni Buddha is eternal and all other Buddhas in the universe are his manifestations, then those great bodhisattvas converted by manifested Buddhas are also disciples of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha. If the “Life Span of the Buddha” chapter had not been expounded, it would be like the sky without the sun and moon, a country without a king, mountains and rivers without gems, or a man without a soul. nevertheless, seemingly knowledgeable men of such provisional schools of Buddhism as Ch’eng-kuan of the Hua-yen, Chia-hsiang of the San-lun, Tz’u-en of the Fa-hsiang, and Kobo of the shingon tried to extol their own canons by stating: “The Lord of the Flower Garland Sutra represents the reward-body (hojin) of the Buddha whereas that of the Lotus Sutra the accomodative body (ojin);” or “the Buddha in the sixteenth chapter of the Lotus is an Illusion; it is the great Sun Buddha who is enlightened.” clouds cover the moon and slanderers hide wise men. When people slander, ordinary yellow rocks appear to be of gold and slanderers seem to be wise. Scholars in this age of decay, blinded by slanderous words, do not see the value of a gold in the “Lifespan of the Buddha” chapter. Even among men of the Tendai school some are fooled into taking a yellow rock for gold. They should know that if Sakyamuni had not been the Eternal Buddha, there could not have been so many who received guidance from Him. ” — The Opening of the Eyes (NOPPA)

Even in the SGI and NST Gosho translations we read passages such as the following:

Thus, in the various sutras other than the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni does not assemble Buddhas who carry out different austerities and practices and who possess the three bodies, nor does he identify them as emanations of himself. [Only in the “Treasure Tower” chapter of the Lotus Sutra does he do so.] This chapter, then, is intended as an introduction to the “Life Span” chapter that follows later. Shakyamuni Buddha, who was believed to have attained enlightenment for the first time only some forty years previously, calls together Buddhas who had become enlightened as long as one or even ten kalpas ago, and declares that they are emanations of himself. This is a far cry indeed from the Buddha’s usual preaching on the equality of all Buddhas [in their Dharma bodies], and in fact a cause of great astonishment. If Shakyamuni had attained enlightenment for the first time only some forty years earlier, there could hardly have been so many beings in the ten directions who had received his instruction. And even if he was privileged to possess emanations, there would have been no benefit in his showing them to his listeners. T’ien-t’ai, describing what went on in the astonished minds of the assembly, says, “It was evident to them that Shakyamuni Buddha possessed numerous emanations. Therefore, they understood that he must have attained enlightenment in the far distant past.” - Opening of the Eyes

“When we come to the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, then the belief that Shakyamuni first obtained Buddhahood during his present lifetime is demolished, and the effects of the four teachings are likewise demolished. When the effects of the four teachings are demolished, the causes of the four teachings are likewise demolished. Thus the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds as expounded in the earlier sutras and the theoretical teaching of the Lotus Sutra are wiped out, and the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds in the essential teaching are revealed. This is the doctrine of original cause and original effect. It reveals that the nine worlds are all present in beginningless Buddhahood and that Buddhahood is inherent in the beginningless nine worlds. This is the true mutual possession of the Ten Worlds, the true hundred worlds and thousand factors, the true three thousand realms in a single moment of life.” (ibid)

"When Shakyamuni Buddha revealed that he had gained enlightenment in the far distant past, it became apparent that all the other Buddhas were emanations of Shakyamuni. When the Buddha preached the earlier sutras and the first half, or theoretical teaching, of the Lotus Sutra, the other Buddhas were pictured as standing on an equal footing with Shakyamuni, after completing their respective practices and disciplines. Therefore, the people who take one or another of these Buddhas as their object of devotion customarily look down on Shakyamuni Buddha. But now it becomes apparent that Vairochana Buddha, who is described in the Flower Garland Sutra as being seated on a lotus pedestal, and the various Buddhas who appear in the sutras of the Correct and Equal and the Wisdom periods, such as the Mahāvairochana Sutra, are all in fact followers of Shakyamuni Buddha." (ibid)

Since the Buddha [of the “Life Span” chapter] is revealed as the Buddha who attained enlightenment in the remote past [and all the other Buddhas as his emanations], it follows that not only the great bodhisattvas whom Shakyamuni himself taught in his transient status, but the great bodhisattvas from other realms [who were taught by the Buddhas of their own realms] are also in fact disciples of Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings. If, among all the numerous sutras, this “Life Span” chapter should be lacking, it would be as though there were no sun or moon in the sky, no supreme ruler in the nation, no gems in the mountains and rivers, and no spirit in human beings." (ibid)

"But now that it has become apparent that Shakyamuni Buddha attained enlightenment countless kalpas ago, then the bodhisattvas Sunlight and Moonlight, who attend the Thus Come One Medicine Master of the eastern region, and the bodhisattvas Perceiver of the World’s Sounds and Great Power, who attend the Thus Come One Amida of the western region, along with the disciples of all the Buddhas of the worlds of the ten directions, and the great bodhisattvas who are disciples of the Thus Come One Mahāvairochana as they are shown in the Mahāvairochana and Diamond Crown sutras—all of these beings are disciples of Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings. Since the various Buddhas themselves are emanations of the Thus Come One Shakyamuni, it goes without saying that their disciples must be disciples of Shakyamuni. And of course the various deities of the sun, moon, and stars, who have dwelt in this world since the beginning of the kalpa of continuance, must likewise be disciples of Shakyamuni Buddha."

There are several dozen similar passages in the SGI/NST translations but, unlike the NOPPA and Kempon Hokke translation, SGI and NST are either circumspect about the identity of the Eternal Buddha or point to Myoho renge kyo as the Eternal Buddha in several writings. However, the writings that point to Myoho renge kyo as the Eternal Buddha are only found in the "Probably" or "Definitely" inauthentic sections of the Showa Tehon and in two places in the five major writings of SGI/NST. For example, The True Object of Worship and On Repaying Debts of Gratitude and in the two forged writings, The True Aspect of All Phenomena and the Record of the Orally Transmitted Teachings. If you are interested in the two places that are mistranslated in the SGI/NST translations of these two major works, I will point them out to you and contrast them with the NOPPA translations.

I suggest you search, "emanations" in the SGI Nichiren Library Search engine. I also suggest you see The Rooster Diagram of the Five Periods Gosho.

Mark
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by illarraza »

"Furthermore, most of the sutras speak of the Buddha as having gained correct enlightenment for the first time in India, and do not make clear that there is the eternal Buddha since time without beginning who is endowed with the three bodies. If this erroneous view, that originally there was no Buddha but that now he exists, is accepted, then the Thus Come One Mahāvairochana becomes a mere name that has no reality.

But in the “Life Span” chapter of the Lotus Sutra, the truth of the matter is clearly explained. Thus we see that Shakyamuni Buddha is like the single moon in the sky, while the other Buddhas and bodhisattvas are like the reflection of the moon floating in ten thousand different bodies of water. But I will not go into the details of the matter here." - The Lotus Sutra and the True Word Teachings

"Moreover, when I examined how long the various Buddhas had spent accomplishing the practice needed to become a Buddha and how long Shakyamuni had done so, I found that some of the other Buddhas had spent three asamkhya kalpas or five kalpas, but that Shakyamuni Buddha had been in the sahā world since major world system dust particle kalpas in the past, a great leader who made it possible for all people to establish the connections needed to attain Buddhahood. No one in this world who was in any of the six paths of existence was ever able to establish such a connection with any other bodhisattva of any other land.

The Lotus Sutra states, “The persons who heard the Law at that time are each in a place where there is one of these Buddhas.”4 T’ien-t’ai says, “The Buddha of the western land is different [from the Buddha of this sahā world], and those who form a relationship with him are also different. It is impossible to assert that the living beings of this sahā world are related to Infinite Life [Amida] Buddha in the way that the father and son are related.” Miao-lo comments on this, “Amida and Shakyamuni are two different Buddhas to begin with. . . . Moreover, the living beings who in past existences formed a bond with these two respective Buddhas represent two different groups, and the methods used to convert and guide them are not the same. Forming a bond with a Buddha represents the process of birth, while the maturing of one’s Buddhist practice represents the process of upbringing. If the Buddha with whom one forms a bond and under whom one’s practice matures is different [from the Buddha of this sahā world], then one cannot establish the father and son relationship with the Buddha.”

Nowadays all the people of Japan are waiting for Amida Buddha to come and take them to his realm. This is as absurd as to expect that one can feed mare’s milk to a calf, or to use a piece of tile as a mirror and hope to see the reflection of the moon in it!

Again, if we consider the question of how long it has been since these various Buddhas attained the fruit of Buddhahood, then we will find that there are some who became Buddhas ten kalpas ago, others a hundred kalpas or a thousand kalpas ago. But in the case of Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings, it has already been a period of numberless major world system dust particle kalpas since he became a Buddha of perfect enlightenment and complete reward. The Thus Come One Mahāvairochana, the Thus Come One Amida, the Thus Come One Medicine Master, and all the other Buddhas of the ten directions are followers of Shakyamuni, the lord of teachings and our original teacher. He is like the moon in the sky that is reflected in ten thousand different bodies of water." - Choosing the Heart of the Lotus Sutra

and from The Rooster Diagram:

Object of devotion of the T’ien-t’ai school (contrasted with the Object of Devotion of the True Word School or Shingon)
The Thus Come One Shakyamuni as the Buddha who actually carried out practice and achieved enlightenment in the inconceivably remote past
Vairochana of the Flower Garland school, Mahāvairochana of the True Word school, and other Buddhas are all followers of this Buddha.

Three bodies first attained by Shakyamuni in India
manifested body.....has a beginning, has an end (Buddha Mahavairochana has never manifested in this Saha world unlike Shakyamuni Buddha)
reward body.....has a beginning, has no end....As the True Word Buddha Mahāvairochana
Dharma body.....has no beginning, has no end.....As the True Word Buddha Mahāvairochana

Three bodies attained in the remote past
manifested body.....has no beginning, has no end
reward Body.....has no beginning, has no end
Dharma body.....has no beginning, has no end

Why not you Minobu?

Mark
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

Shoho a member here for two seconds said it was in translation.
So your guy translates the gosho and you end up with this idea that the time mentioned in the sutra is beyond inifinite. It’s an always was and always will be thing.

Which for me is something other than the Buddha described in the Lotus Sutra.

The period of time is when He attained. Attained. attained Buddhahood Then there are the stories pre Buddhahood.

Translation.
I know in my heart what MyoHo RenGe Kyo is.
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by markatex »

Which for me is something other than the Buddha described in the Lotus Sutra.

The period of time is when He attained. Attained. attained Buddhahood Then there are the stories pre Buddhahood.
You’re reading it too literally. It’s just a manner of speaking. The understanding has always been that “attained enlightenment in the remotest past” means “eternal.”
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Minobu
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

markatex wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:10 pm
Which for me is something other than the Buddha described in the Lotus Sutra.

The period of time is when He attained. Attained. attained Buddhahood Then there are the stories pre Buddhahood.
You’re reading it too literally. It’s just a manner of speaking. The understanding has always been that “attained enlightenment in the remotest past” means “eternal.”
how So ?

who is the authority on this?
Who says so...it certainly doesn't adhere to the rules of comprehension .

Nowhere in Buddhism does this concept and destruction of the english language exist.

it is like i woke up in a new nightmare round here...

Only in translated and instructional teachings by so called scholars of Nichiren do you come up with this sort of mumbo jumbo .....
The understanding has always been that “attained enlightenment in the remotest past” means “eternal.”
I've said it far too many times...That is not what is taught to us by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha when He revealed when He actually attained enlightenment...

all other buddhist doctrine describes several Buddhas before and more to come...
did not know you were one to adhere to this stuff markatex.
markatex
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by markatex »

Minobu wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:57 pmwho is the authority on this?
Who says so...it certainly doesn't adhere to the rules of comprehension .
It's pretty standard across all schools of Nichiren Buddhism, except for Shoshu and SGI. I imagine that it comes from Tiantai, but I'm not 100% sure.
I've said it far too many times...That is not what is taught to us by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha when He revealed when He actually attained enlightenment...

all other buddhist doctrine describes several Buddhas before and more to come...
did not know you were one to adhere to this stuff markatex.
All of those other Buddhas are emanations/reflections of the Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha. The practice and awakening of the Buddha is a performance, an expedient device. This revelation is meant to "shock and awe," like much of the Lotus Sutra.

I haven't been on here much recently, and have only skimmed some of these threads, but I've gathered that this is a concept that you find confounding/annoying. I'll have to look through them some more. I feel like I've missed a lot.
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:57 pm how So ?

who is the authority on this?
Who says so...it certainly doesn't adhere to the rules of comprehension .
You don't have to accept this:

Shakyamuni of the Essential Teaching is Triple Bodied without beginning or end. The Buddha teaches that he appears here and there, appears to awaken, but all of this is upaya. The Buddha speaking in the Essential Section of the Lotus is without beginning or end.

Nichiren agreed with this:

From the Rooster Diagram

Image

You keep spinning your wheels on this. That's fine. But this is the way the Lotus Sutra is read in the Lotus schools. You can accept that or don't, but this is the fact.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

markatex wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:04 am
Minobu wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:57 pmwho is the authority on this?
Who says so...it certainly doesn't adhere to the rules of comprehension .
It's pretty standard across all schools of Nichiren Buddhism, except for Shoshu and SGI. I imagine that it comes from Tiantai, but I'm not 100% sure.
I've said it far too many times...That is not what is taught to us by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha when He revealed when He actually attained enlightenment...

all other buddhist doctrine describes several Buddhas before and more to come...
did not know you were one to adhere to this stuff markatex.
All of those other Buddhas are emanations/reflections of the Eternal Shakyamuni Buddha. The practice and awakening of the Buddha is a performance, an expedient device. This revelation is meant to "shock and awe," like much of the Lotus Sutra.

I haven't been on here much recently, and have only skimmed some of these threads, but I've gathered that this is a concept that you find confounding/annoying. I'll have to look through them some more. I feel like I've missed a lot.
Its taking away from what the entity of MyoHo RenGe Kyo is.

i can see how they got the idea that MyoHo RenGe Kyo appears as Nichiren..hence the Buddha of Kuon Ganjo...i can see that ...but Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is not this...


It is quite possible that Nichiren was a manifestation of MyoHo RenGe kyo...and it;s an easy step into the paradigm...but Nichiren made sure who He was.

Yes all the Buddhas are of the the One Buddha ...but what of the next Buddha...and what bof the other Buddhas who like our present Buddha did the same...were all these emanations as well..

it goes against Buddhism..and the whole concept of Buddha...
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Queequeg »

IIRC, kuon ganjo is Shoshu doctrine -time without beginning. AFAIK, Nichiren never wrote that term down. Everyone else says kuon jitsujo - remote past.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Queequeg »

In general, when Shakyamuni Buddha is referred to, we're talking about Gautama who appeared in India 2500 years ago.

Tathagata Shakyamuni awoke in the remote past. This is the Buddha that appears to all sentient beings. As far back in the past as there have been sentient beings, this tathagata has been appearing to them and leading them to awakening. He always awoke in the remote past. When you're dealing with infinite time, there's always a remote past.

As I said, spinning wheels trying to find the beginning of infinity. Trying to grab something that is a mirage, a conjured lure to get you out of the burning house, a sting to get you to realize your real identity, a shock to wake you up.

Its this. Not that.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:21 am In general, when Shakyamuni Buddha is referred to, we're talking about Gautama who appeared in India 2500 years ago.

Tathagata Shakyamuni awoke in the remote past. This is the Buddha that appears to all sentient beings. As far back in the past as there have been sentient beings, this tathagata has been appearing to them and leading them to awakening. He always awoke in the remote past. When you're dealing with infinite time, there's always a remote past.

As I said, spinning wheels trying to find the beginning of infinity. Trying to grab something that is a mirage, a conjured lure to get you out of the burning house, a sting to get you to realize your real identity, a shock to wake you up.

Its this. Not that.
first up I do not know about others but i am not trying to find the beginning of infinity.

But you seem to have figured it out .
He always awoke in the remote past. When you're dealing with infinite time, there's always a remote past.
unfortunately for me thats just mumbo jumbo .

I'm curious as to what mirages you are referring to.

For me at this juncture of unpacking Mahayana and Lotus Buddhism i could go two routes.

One it's all upaya beyound anything that actually happened and is all an intellectual trip.

You get to fit square pegs into round holes quite nicely...

then there is my reality.

A before samsara where all beings ,were beings of light..a before time existed ...no time..... and then desire crept into the picture and thus started the Samsaric realms of desire.

A common mortal attains Buddhahood and leads and teaches an almost infinite amount beings to Liberation.

Samsara fills up again and the process is ongoing.

Somewhere in that we find ourselves with our Buddha Father ....

But it is predicted that there will be future Buddhas ...because the process is eternal...

in the midst of all of this there has always been this Entity of The Law MyoHo RenGe Kyo.

A non common mortal who attains Buddhahood...

We refer to this as The Primordial Buddha ....

i am editing the above...It did not attain Buddhahood...it is Buddha Nature....which produces the defiled and the enlightened...

So thats me...

The reason why this practice works no matter what you think it is all about...For we know what ever you believe.take this example...


..Nichiren is the Primordial Buddha who Rev, Nagasaka taught me that ...exact quote with no real word ending it just a look..." There is no beginning and no end ,but in the beginning of the beginning.....


so thats his paradigm and when i bought into that my father was cured.

if they were so wrong how could that happen?

then there is a few differing concepts about Lord Sakyamuni Buddha being The Eternal Buddha and those people receive benefit as well...

if they were so wrong how could that happen?


Then you have you with it's all upaya....

how is that working out for you...i'm sure when you practice even with this concept you receive benefits from Gohonzon...

although i never heard of this one...thats new to me...


if you look at Mahayana one could say it is all upaya..written by humans who are said to have been inspired hundreds of years after the Gotama Buddha passed away .

but I don;t think Lotus Buddhism as Nichiren Shonin saw it is in this category of upaya.

Lotus Buddhism developed over geography and time on this planet ... ...It is part of the process for when Samsara slips into Mappo......It completely goes against the grain for modern day Buddhists since the time of Nichiren Shonin.

It's a completely different paradigm ...
For me it's suited for Mappo...a time when Lord Sakyamuni Buddha's teachings are in decline and lose their power to awaken for those practices no longer develop into liberation during Mappo...another medicine is required...so powerful even if you confuse the bejeevers out of it in your mind...."IT" works.


so i shall leave you with yours and as you know....because it is QQ ...i'm hard wired to obssess about what you just said ...lol...
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Minobu
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

in the midst of all of this there has always been this Entity of The Law MyoHo RenGe Kyo.

A non common mortal who attains Buddhahood...

We refer to this as The Primordial Buddha ....

i am editing the above...It did not attain Buddhahood...it is Buddha Nature....which produces the both aspects of the defiled and the enlightened...



ok so this is important....I misspoke...

Due to Buddha Nature....we have Samsara....
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:33 pm so we have people saying Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Eternal Buddha and then we have Shoshu saying Nichiren is The Eternal Buddha of kuon Gango.

but where did this concept of naming Lord Sakyamuni Buddha as the Eternal Buddha originate?
It is Lotus School doctrine.
Nichiren Shonin never once said it out right.He did not even allude to such a thing.....all anyone can come up with is interpretation and looking for innuendo in our Master's gosho .
Well actually,
Queequeg wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:10 am From the Rooster Diagram.

Image
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/367

You really should read that. You keep protesting no one shows you anything, but then when its show to you, you act like you don't see it. Maybe you don't, but then I think that's your laziness to not even look.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:48 pm first up I do not know about others but i am not trying to find the beginning of infinity.
Sure you are.
then there is my reality.

A before samsara where all beings ,were beings of light..a before time existed ...no time..... and then desire crept into the picture and thus started the Samsaric realms of desire.
There is no "before samsara". There was no time when we were light. There is said to be an interim between the complete obliteration of the world and the start of another world when all beings are some immaterial entities, but, until the great conflagration of the last universe, they were cycling through the desire, form and formless realms of that universe, and the universe before that, and the one before that, ad ininitum. You're positing a garden of Eden. That's you trying to find a beginning.

Samsara fills up again and the process is ongoing.
from whence? If there is a cause and effect, they didn't just spontaneously happen. That is a wrong view.
...because the process is eternal...
Oh. You mean, boundless? Without beginning or end? Exactly. So, when was this time of light beings? And was that the beginning or not?
in the midst of all of this there has always been this Entity of The Law MyoHo RenGe Kyo.

A non common mortal who attains Buddhahood...

We refer to this as The Primordial Buddha ....
No. Now you're just making stuff up. This is Dharma according to Minobu.
i am editing the above...It did not attain Buddhahood...it is Buddha Nature....which produces the defiled and the enlightened...
No. From the Pefect View, no defiled, no enlightened. Just reality.
So thats me...

The reason why this practice works no matter what you think it is all about...For we know what ever you believe.take this example...


..Nichiren is the Primordial Buddha who Rev, Nagasaka taught me that ...exact quote with no real word ending it just a look..." There is no beginning and no end ,but in the beginning of the beginning.....


so thats his paradigm and when i bought into that my father was cured.

if they were so wrong how could that happen?
Just because a termite carves the letter A in a piece of wood, doesn't mean its literate.
if you look at Mahayana one could say it is all upaya..
Well, actually, that's exactly what the Buddha says in the Lotus Sutra.

Anyway, have fun spinning the wheels. When you're ready to leave the burning house, you might start actually paying attention to the teachings and less to your ruminations on little bits and pieces that haphazardly float into your purview. And I mean all this with kindness.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:03 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:48 pm first up I do not know about others but i am not trying to find the beginning of infinity.
Sure you are.
then there is my reality.

A before samsara where all beings ,were beings of light..a before time existed ...no time..... and then desire crept into the picture and thus started the Samsaric realms of desire.
There is no "before samsara". There was no time when we were light. There is said to be an interim between the complete obliteration of the world and the start of another world when all beings are some immaterial entities, but, until the great conflagration of the last universe, they were cycling through the desire, form and formless realms of that universe, and the universe before that, and the one before that, ad ininitum. You're positing a garden of Eden. That's you trying to find a beginning.

so it is a totally misunderstanding of our differing of concepts with what you are using words to describe...this time you talk of in the way you do is all mumbo jumbo to me...you don;t get or have a clue as to what i am talking about...


before i venture into the rest of your post...the first i heard of us being beings of light was in the Gakki from like world tribune study material...

unto books i read into...i'm no good at googling this place but this discussion came up years ago with dzogchen people....someone reiterated basically what i am talking about i think it was smlc or something similar ...have not seen him in a long time...he verified this and it went dead of course...

it's buddhism 101 QQ ..

ok unto the rest...
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

As for The revelations on how Buddha Avalokiteshvara acquired the 1000 arm body...there are several tales ...but the one that sticks to me is the one where Buddha Avalokiteshvara had promised not to attain enlightenment until all beings were liberated and when he accomplished this He was asked to turn around and look...and Samsara fills up again...He broke in 1000 pieces and Buddha Amitabha put him back together again with 1000 arms ...

anyway...all this talk of intellectual understanding when as our Master pointed out it is a physical thing.

which of course overrides any provisional non enlightened view we common mortals like to churn out...some are better at it than others.
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by tkp67 »

I believe the point is the three bodies never had a beginning or an end in the first place. The notion that they did is simply provisional.

This is not to say existence as we are experiencing it is in and of itself eternal. Rather it is not independent but part of the chain that is the continuity of life over many existences. Just as the cells of one's body are a part of what constitutes one's being, the various beings are part of what constitutes the heritage of sentient life. One can choose to inherit Shakyamuni's stewardship of the sentient life one is connected to at the present moment. There is no difference in this inheritance just how in the recognition and expression of such.
In sutras other than the Lotus Sutra, the three bodies were held to exist separately, such as Mahāvairochana in the Dharma-body aspect and Amida in the reward-body aspect. However, on the basis of the doctrine of three thousand realms in a single moment of life, T’ien-t’ai maintained that the three bodies are not separate entities but three integral aspects of one Buddha.
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd- ... 7#para-136

The Entity of the Mystic Law
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Minobu
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:03 pm

No. Now you're just making stuff up. This is Dharma according to Minobu.
thats a cute thing to say, where did you drag that out of...been waiting long



QQ i don't make stuff up...i take my sources from ancient teachings....not newly minted authors of Buddhist doctrine.
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:22 am it's buddhism 101 QQ ..
No. If it was, you'd have no problem finding support for it. You wouldn't have to plead that you're a bad googler.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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