Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

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illarraza
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Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by illarraza »

Many maintain that the Eternal Buddha is Original Enlightenment and others that it is Myoho renge kyo. I assert:

1).By the principle of individuation that the Eternal Buddha is the personification and behavior of the Master of Teachings Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, the Original Three Bodied Tathagata specifically and us generally.
2).Namu Myoho renge kyo is the Dharma or Law Body of the Eternal Buddha who possesses Three Bodies: the Law Body, The Reward Body, and the Manifest Body.
3).By the principle of Three Treasures and Three Great Secret Laws, Namu Myoho renge kyo is the Law (and invocation) while Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter is the Eternal Buddha.
4) Namu Myoho renge kyo is also the teaching, not the teacher. Nichiren says the Gohonzon is the teacher and therefore, the manifestation of the Eternal Buddha whose Law body and teaching is Namu Myoho renge kyo
5).Namu Myoho renge kyo is also a symbol and banner of the Eternal Buddha. When we chant Namu Myoho renge kyo to a simple Daimoku only Gohonzon or merely chant Namu Myoho renge kyo wherever we find ourselves, the ancient Buddha enters our mind, according to Nichiren.

I believe that I can prove my assertions through the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren. Either way, this is a good topic for discussion, I believe.
illarraza
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by illarraza »

illarraza wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:47 am Many maintain that the Eternal Buddha is Original Enlightenment and others that it is Myoho renge kyo. I assert:

1).By the principle of individuation that the Eternal Buddha is the personification and behavior of the Master of Teachings Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, the Original Three Bodied Tathagata specifically and us generally.
2).Namu Myoho renge kyo is the Dharma or Law Body of the Eternal Buddha who possesses Three Bodies: the Law Body, The Reward Body, and the Manifest Body.
3).By the principle of Three Treasures and Three Great Secret Laws, Namu Myoho renge kyo is the Law (and invocation) while Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter is the Eternal Buddha.
4) Namu Myoho renge kyo is also the teaching, not the teacher. Nichiren says the Gohonzon is the teacher and therefore, the manifestation of the Eternal Buddha whose Law body and teaching is Namu Myoho renge kyo
5).Namu Myoho renge kyo is also a symbol and banner of the Eternal Buddha. When we chant Namu Myoho renge kyo to a simple Daimoku only Gohonzon or merely chant Namu Myoho renge kyo wherever we find ourselves, the ancient Buddha enters our mind (according to Nichiren).

I believe that I can prove my assertions through the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren. Either way, this is a good topic for discussion, I believe.
illarraza
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by illarraza »

Many maintain that the Eternal Buddha is Original Enlightenment and others that it is Myoho renge kyo. I assert:

1).By the principle of individuation that the Eternal Buddha is the personification and behavior of the Master of Teachings Lord Shakyamuni Buddha, the Original Three Bodied Tathagata specifically and us generally.
2).Namu Myoho renge kyo is the Dharma or Law Body of the Eternal Buddha who possesses Three Bodies: the Law Body, The Reward Body, and the Manifest Body.
3).By the principle of Three Treasures and Three Great Secret Laws, Namu Myoho renge kyo is the Law (and invocation) while Shakyamuni Buddha of the Juryo Chapter is the Eternal Buddha.
4) Namu Myoho renge kyo is also the teaching, not the teacher. Nichiren says the Gohonzon is the teacher and therefore, the manifestation of the Eternal Buddha whose Law body and teaching is Namu Myoho renge kyo
5).Namu Myoho renge kyo is also a symbol and banner of the Eternal Buddha. When we chant Namu Myoho renge kyo to a simple Daimoku only Gohonzon or merely chant Namu Myoho renge kyo wherever we find ourselves, the ancient Buddha enters our mind (according to Nichiren).

I believe that I can prove my assertions through the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren. Either way, this is a good topic for discussion, I believe.
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Riju
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Riju »

All Buddhas of past have gone into Nirvana.
As per Lotus sutra first Buddha Sun Moon Buddha evolved after more than 2000 births (chapter INTRODUCTION in translation BURTON WATSON).
Before entering Nirvana ,He handed over the Buddhahood to someone else who was capable of sustaining Buddhahood,
I conclude from this that Eternal Buddha is this system of handing over for continuity. And this system details are given in Lotus Sutra of One Vehicle.
When one gets connected to this system , one enjoys the WISDOM of Eternal Buddha.
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Queequeg
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Queequeg »

illarraza wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:47 am ...
something something about saying things three times?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Minobu
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Minobu »

All Buddhas including Lord Sakyamuni Buddha were at one time common mortals.
The incredible long time when Lord Sakyamuni Buddha revealed when first attained Buddhahood is finite.

And there are texts that proclaim Buddhas before Lord Sakyamuni Buddha and Buddhas who will come after This Buddha enters extinction.
whatever that means.

So
when we describe MyoHo RenGe Kyo as The Eternal Buddha it is because It is The Dharma from Which all Buddhas awaken to and eventually become full Blown Buddhas.

We all are Buddhas...just are not aware ..becoming aware of the possibility , that being your Buddha Nature is part and parcel to your existence, is the first step ..

But in essence MyoHo RenGe Kyo is what we take in refuge in when we use the sanskrit word Nama in front of it.

We use Namu , which is the same thing and Nam works well for chanting.

point is we like all Buddhas take refuge in MyoHo RenGe Kyo.

So the law stood alone, so to speak..until a sentient became enlightened with MyoHo RenGe Kyo.

Calling Lord Sakyamuni Buddha the Eternal Buddha is just so off the mark....due to what Lord Sakyamuni Buddha revealed in The Lotus Sutra as to when This Buddha actually attained Buddhahood..
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Minobu
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Minobu »

and really good to see you Ilarraza ..missed you big time. why?

because you actually have a very deep respect for Lotus Buddhism like few on the planet have.

You have so much knowledge ...just saying for the noobs here.

:heart: :hi: :hug:
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Riju wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 2:43 pm All Buddhas of past have gone into Nirvana.
As per Lotus sutra first Buddha Sun Moon Buddha evolved after more than 2000 births (chapter INTRODUCTION in translation BURTON WATSON).
Before entering Nirvana ,He handed over the Buddhahood to someone else who was capable of sustaining Buddhahood,
I conclude from this that Eternal Buddha is this system of handing over for continuity. And this system details are given in Lotus Sutra of One Vehicle.
When one gets connected to this system , one enjoys the WISDOM of Eternal Buddha.
This reminds me of when Tibetans say things like "a Dharmakaya has a lifespan of X aeons." The Dharmakaya obviously has no lifespan as far as I can see.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Minobu
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Minobu »

you quoted Nichiren in another thread with this
"Now, the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra says that Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings, attained Buddhahood numberless major world system dust particle kalpas ago, and that the cause that made this possible was the practice he had carried out at that time. Since then he has manifested emanation bodies throughout the worlds of the ten directions and preached all the sacred teachings of his lifetime to teach and convert people as numerous as the dust particles of the land.
so this proves He Attained enlightenment but is not The Eternal Buddha ...let alone the Primordial Buddha..obviously Nichiren Shonin and me are of the same paradigm
Malcolm
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Malcolm »

illarraza wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:47 am
I believe that I can prove my assertions through the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren. Either way, this is a good topic for discussion, I believe.
One can always prove one's own assertions by relying on the accepted texts of one's own tradition. Your effort just amounts to an exercise in self-confirming tenets, but do not have the force to actually convince anyone outside your own school of anything. Such is the nature of religious polemics.
Last edited by Malcolm on Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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that name does not exist."
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:31 pm
This reminds me of when Tibetans say things like "a Dharmakaya has a lifespan of X aeons." The Dharmakaya obviously has no lifespan as far as I can see.
The Tibetans never say things like "the dharmakāya has a lifespan of x years." Where did you pick up this notion? There is only one dharmakāya, no matter what name one chooses to call it; it is the realization of the true nature of things that all samyaksambuddhas possess, nothing else.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:36 pm
illarraza wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:47 am
I believe that I can prove my assertions through the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren. Either way, this is a good topic for discussion, I believe.
One can always prove one's own assertions by relying on the accepted texts of one's own tradition. Your effort just amounts to an exercise in self-confirming tenets, but do not have the force to actually convince anyone outside your own school of anything. Such is the nature of religious polemics.
Yes and even then it is still relative if it these assertions are limited to one perspective within a tradition opposed to resolving them all to the essence of the teaching the tradition is founded upon.

Because the ordinary mind on even the lowest of paths and the minds of those incapable of believing are indeed capable of enlightenment which this particular tradition facilitates it encounters the mindset of all realms in the discussion of such as a means of revealing the true aspect.

In this regard I acutely understand how difficult discordance is for some people to encounter and resolve. This tradition seems to function well in that regard but the very nature exposes one to the darkness of life which which is difficult for some to endure.

:anjali:
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Minobu
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:36 pm
illarraza wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:47 am
I believe that I can prove my assertions through the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren. Either way, this is a good topic for discussion, I believe.
One can always prove one's own assertions by relying on the accepted texts of one's own tradition. Your effort just amounts to an exercise in self-confirming tenets, but do not have the force to actually convince anyone outside your own school of anything. Such is the nature of religious polemics.
But in our schools of Lotus Buddhism every sentient in the universe is being taught by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.
According to their capacity.

ultimately entering Lotus Buddhism is what is called for since the time of Lord Buddha Nagarjuna retrieving the Lotus Sutra from the Nagas.

all these various meditation practices that some here condemned as heretical are just this ..Different practices to bring you to different head spaces.

fun and rewarding...but not what is needed at this time in Mappo..for your True Growth towards Buddhahood ....Lotus Buddhism worked it's way through time and masters to this point here...me and you typing away about Buddhist Doctrine...


like the way Dzogchen relies on a death bed happening...which is really like a terrifying absurd notion to us Nichirenistas...

We see our stay in Samsara as a means of practice...liberating other sentients ....and doing the work of liberating others in this time of when Lord Sakyamuni Buddha introduced the Lotus Sutra.

Even like completion stage Tantra is not really going to lead you to the seat of Buddhahood in this era...It's fun but not the time ...our bodies and minds are just not the thing Nichiren is talking about...it's Using one's Buddha Nature in youre daily life during The Time when as predicted ....the declining years of the age of defilement...we refer to as Mappo..

all the intelectual study is not comparable to chanting Namu MyoHo RenGe Kyo...

i doubt if you will buy this in your present life...but you will eventually...come to a life in the future where you too will be a Nichirenista...

Lord Buddha Sakyamuni promises it...so no worries...when you hover above your body at the time of death.and realize you ain't going no where but the bardo and unto another existence in Samsara....remember this and meditate on Nam Myoho Renge Kyo and be reborn a human...
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:36 pm
illarraza wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:47 am
I believe that I can prove my assertions through the Lotus Sutra and writings of Nichiren. Either way, this is a good topic for discussion, I believe.
One can always prove one's own assertions by relying on the accepted texts of one's own tradition. Your effort just amounts to an exercise in self-confirming tenets, but do not have the force to actually convince anyone outside your own school of anything. Such is the nature of religious polemics.
But in our schools of Lotus Buddhism every sentient in the universe is being taught by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.
According to their capacity.
As I said, self-confirming tenets...
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
—Kotalipa
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:37 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:31 pm
This reminds me of when Tibetans say things like "a Dharmakaya has a lifespan of X aeons." The Dharmakaya obviously has no lifespan as far as I can see.
The Tibetans never say things like "the dharmakāya has a lifespan of x years." Where did you pick up this notion?
From you on this very forum. 900 aeons, I believe. But give me a moment to fact-check myself.

EDIT: it looks like I can't find it, so I'll have to recant. I'll ask moderation to remove my comment. It had always disturbed me that Tibetan Buddhism placed an expiry date on the dharmakaya. I am glad that I was mistaken.
Last edited by Caoimhghín on Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Then, the monks sang this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and rots.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Minobu
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:50 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:27 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:36 pm

One can always prove one's own assertions by relying on the accepted texts of one's own tradition. Your effort just amounts to an exercise in self-confirming tenets, but do not have the force to actually convince anyone outside your own school of anything. Such is the nature of religious polemics.
But in our schools of Lotus Buddhism every sentient in the universe is being taught by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.
According to their capacity.
As I said, self-confirming tenets...
Well psychologically , a way of viewing it all.and as you said ...this is your head space on the matter Such is the nature of religious polemics. , your concern ...not ours


And indeed no one would understand this as you do
As I said, self-confirming tenets...
For the real aspect of Buddhism is the ability to liberate .


The simplicity of The Lotus Buddhist is in leaving it all to practice ...and to The Mahayana ...

The Garden Path down Sutra Alley...
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Minobu
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Minobu »

I think you might be projecting yourself unto Buddhism and your understanding of Lotus Buddhism Malcolm
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:20 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:37 pm
Caoimhghín wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 3:31 pm
This reminds me of when Tibetans say things like "a Dharmakaya has a lifespan of X aeons." The Dharmakaya obviously has no lifespan as far as I can see.
The Tibetans never say things like "the dharmakāya has a lifespan of x years." Where did you pick up this notion?
From you on this very forum. 900 aeons, I believe. But give me a moment to fact-check myself.

EDIT: it looks like I can't find it, so I'll have to recant. I'll ask moderation to remove my comment. It had always disturbed me that Tibetan Buddhism placed an expiry date on the dharmakaya. I am glad that I was mistaken.
That statement is nonsensical. You might be thinking of some canonical statement about the lifespan of a Nirmanakaya, maybe during a non-degenerate time? That would track with the long lifespan thing stories about pre-Shakyamuni Buddhas. Ascribing qualities like span of years to the Dharmakaya is patently nonsensical though - in any Mahayana tradition.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
tkp67
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by tkp67 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 4:16 am
Caoimhghín wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:20 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Oct 15, 2020 5:37 pm

The Tibetans never say things like "the dharmakāya has a lifespan of x years." Where did you pick up this notion?
From you on this very forum. 900 aeons, I believe. But give me a moment to fact-check myself.

EDIT: it looks like I can't find it, so I'll have to recant. I'll ask moderation to remove my comment. It had always disturbed me that Tibetan Buddhism placed an expiry date on the dharmakaya. I am glad that I was mistaken.
That statement is nonsensical. You might be thinking of some canonical statement about the lifespan of a Nirmanakaya, maybe during a non-degenerate time? That would track with the long lifespan thing stories about pre-Shakyamuni Buddhas. Ascribing qualities like span of years to the Dharmakaya is patently nonsensical though - in any Mahayana tradition.
This is correct in the context of Nichiren tradition.

The buddha foretold of his teachings being corrupted in the degenerate age thus their presumed expiration. It is ultimately a purpose of this sutra.
Malcolm
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Re: Who or what is the Eternal Buddha?

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:34 am I think you might be projecting yourself unto Buddhism and your understanding of Lotus Buddhism Malcolm
Nope, simply commenting on the limits of sectarian polemics. They always Amount to preaching to the choir.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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