Tathagatagarbha

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Minobu
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Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

from another thread we have this
_johnarundel_ wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:44 pm Finally, in our current age of Mappo, because of our lower capacities, we must receive the seed of Buddhahood for the first time by chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo to the Gohonzon, which is how common mortals can attain Buddhahood in their present form, as taught by Nichiren Daishonin.

couple things about this statement to ponder.

a) At ceremony in the air the Four Leaders of the Bodhisattvas of The Earth ,with Bodhisattvas in the numbers of more than sixty thousand times the grains of sand in the Ganges River,came to ceremony in the air. As explained these are Bodhisattvas trained by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha in the infinite past, and remained dormant if you will , for the work to be done during Mappo. dormant meaning in the sense, at mappo they rise to the occasion, This is what Lord Sakyamuni Buddha trained them for.

b) The Eternal Buddha MyoHo RenGe Kyo is exactly that, Eternal ,and every sentient has a Buddha nature.


It's like taking the three thousand moments of Ichinen Sanzen out of the picture till this true buddha of kuon ganjo arrives on scene...

So this concept of receiving the seed of Buddhahood for the first time seems a concept purely designed in Nichiren shoShu to support their narrative.
which only causes angst if i mention it so i won't...

but this narrative is not common to anyone but Nichiren shoshu and goes against the grain of what a) and b) is explained .
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

Based on a) and b) as stated.

Isn't the bodhisattva teaching that prepared the bodhisattva of the earth before emerging different than the seed of buddha (myoho renge kyo) that leads to buddhahood in this lifetime based on function?
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

I’m interested in knowing how this doesn’t contradict the essential Mahayana teaching that all beings already possess tathagatagharba, the realization of which is merely obscured.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:52 pm I’m interested in knowing how this doesn’t contradict the essential Mahayana teaching that all beings already possess tathagatagarbha, the realization of which is merely obscured.
it actually does go against the concept...this is exactly what i am trying to point out..Only one sect on the planet believes as john in the OP states.


so the way my mind works is :
how do you take Tathagatagarbha out of all sentients , or say it isn't there yet ,and just wait till they say Nam MyoHo RenGe Kyo and bibbity bobbiy boo it's there inside you...

Also Bodhisattvas of the Earth as mentioned in the Lotus Sutra are trained by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha . Saying otherwise is just not so. It is stated in the Lotus Sutra and it is who these BoE are...

the seed to Buddhahood is not some thing floating around the ether waiting to be placed inside a sentient being..

so i think it is important to have a correct understanding or you end up confusing the whole matter .
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

Also even though Tathagatagarbha is obscured , it still is a vital functioning living aspect of human life...all sentients for that matter , but to take humans as an example...without it all sentients would be something entirely different.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

At that time the world-honored one, having spoken these verses, said to the bodhisattva Maitreya: “With regard to this great multitude I now say this to you. Ajita, these bodhisattvas mahasattva who in immeasurable and countless asamkhyas have emerged from the earth and whom you have never seen before in the past—after I attained supreme perfect enlightenment in this saha world, I converted and guided these bodhisattvas, trained their minds, and caused them to develop a longing for the way. These bodhisattvas have all been dwelling in the world of empty space underneath the saha world. They read, recite, understand the various scriptures, ponder them, make distinctions, and keep them correctly in mind.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:32 pm Based on a) and b) as stated.

Isn't the bodhisattva teaching that prepared the bodhisattva of the earth before emerging different than the seed of buddha (myoho renge kyo) that leads to buddhahood in this lifetime based on function?
it's there inside everyone ...you cannot take it out or say it isn't there yet. Buddhism has always been based on this. It's not like Oh it's Mappo now take out everyone's Buddha Nature now.Hey you Mappo was happening as of an hour ago...How are you still holding on to your Buddha Nature.....it's silly to think like that.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:19 pm
At that time the world-honored one, having spoken these verses, said to the bodhisattva Maitreya: “With regard to this great multitude I now say this to you. Ajita, these bodhisattvas mahasattva who in immeasurable and countless asamkhyas have emerged from the earth and whom you have never seen before in the past—after I attained supreme perfect enlightenment in this saha world, I converted and guided these bodhisattvas, trained their minds, and caused them to develop a longing for the way. These bodhisattvas have all been dwelling in the world of empty space underneath the saha world. They read, recite, understand the various scriptures, ponder them, make distinctions, and keep them correctly in mind.
exactly thank you very much...Lord Sakyamuni Buddha trained them ...even Jogyo , who is Nichiren Shonin.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:22 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:19 pm
At that time the world-honored one, having spoken these verses, said to the bodhisattva Maitreya: “With regard to this great multitude I now say this to you. Ajita, these bodhisattvas mahasattva who in immeasurable and countless asamkhyas have emerged from the earth and whom you have never seen before in the past—after I attained supreme perfect enlightenment in this saha world, I converted and guided these bodhisattvas, trained their minds, and caused them to develop a longing for the way. These bodhisattvas have all been dwelling in the world of empty space underneath the saha world. They read, recite, understand the various scriptures, ponder them, make distinctions, and keep them correctly in mind.
exactly thank you very much...Lord Sakyamuni Buddha trained them ...even Jogyo , who is Nichiren Shonin.
Who trained Shakyamuni? Remember there is no self that could independently manufacture a seed of buddhism.

Also from emerging from the earth from within the LS
“Suppose, for example, that a young man of twenty-five, with ruddy complexion and hair still black, should point to someone who was a hundred years old and say, ‘This is my son!’ or that the hundred-year-old man should point to the youth and say, p.262‘This is my father, who sired and raised me!’ This would be hard to believe, and so too is what the Buddha says.

“It has in fact not been long since you attained the way. But this great multitude of bodhisattvas have already for immeasurable thousands, ten thousands, millions of kalpas applied themselves diligently and earnestly for the sake of the buddha way. They have learned to enter into, emerge from, and dwell in immeasurable hundreds, thousands, ten thousands, millions of samadhis, have acquired great transcendental powers, have over a long period carried out brahma practices, and have been able step by step to practice various good doctrines, becoming skilled in questions and answers, a treasure among persons, something seldom known in all the worlds. And today, World-Honored One, you tell us that, in the time since you attained the buddha way, you have caused these people for the first time to aspire to enlightenment, have taught, converted, and led them, and directed them toward supreme perfect enlightenment!
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Minobu »

Well there were other Buddhas before Lord Sakyamuni Buddha..Buddhas like Lord Sakyamuni Buddha who look after sentients and the lived and dwelled in That pure land...and more to come..the next one is in ten thousand years Lord Maitreya Buddha , who sits on His Throne waiting as we speak.

this has been going for so long no one knows the time...look at how long ago Lord Sakyamuni Buddha said he first attained enlightenment..that was just when He attained IT...He was a common mortal for like how long before that...having to go through the samsaric cycle...like being everyone's mother at least 500 times and every sentient being his mother at least 500 times...it's like a long time and this is discussing just one Buddha..i think there were a thousand before this Buddha. ..think of that time period...i mean really if they all were like this Buddha then that time in the Lotus is like for one Buddha...

anyway...

i would like to se TKP67 reply to padmavonsamba 's question properly...maybe he might just make a believer out of me... :anjali:
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:52 pm I’m interested in knowing how this doesn’t contradict the essential Mahayana teaching that all beings already possess tathagatagharba, the realization of which is merely obscured.
The earth equals ground i.e. primordial state.

Emerging form this state doesn't mean one realizes it but it is no different than saying people are born with a nature they do not recognize however this contemplation is brought to the understanding without imprinting words that point to it directly.

The later is corruptible over time aka ephemeral.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

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tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:19 pm
At that time the world-honored one, having spoken these verses, said to the bodhisattva Maitreya: “With regard to this great multitude I now say this to you. Ajita, these bodhisattvas mahasattva who in immeasurable and countless asamkhyas have emerged from the earth and whom you have never seen before in the past—after I attained supreme perfect enlightenment in this saha world, I converted and guided these bodhisattvas, trained their minds, and caused them to develop a longing for the way. These bodhisattvas have all been dwelling in the world of empty space underneath the saha world. They read, recite, understand the various scriptures, ponder them, make distinctions, and keep them correctly in mind.
This is the 15th Chapter. In the 16th, Buddha states that he didn't really awaken in this world but awoke in the remote past.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Queequeg »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:26 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:22 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:19 pm
exactly thank you very much...Lord Sakyamuni Buddha trained them ...even Jogyo , who is Nichiren Shonin.
Who trained Shakyamuni? Remember there is no self that could independently manufacture a seed of buddhism.
No. When speaking of conventions, emptiness is in the background. What you've done here is throw down the "Emptiness!" trump card, as if that illuminates anything. It doesn't.

Not applicable in the context.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:58 pm Well there were other Buddhas before Lord Sakyamuni Buddha..Buddhas like Lord Sakyamuni Buddha who look after sentients and the lived and dwelled in That pure land...and more to come..the next one is in ten thousand years Lord Maitreya Buddha , who sits on His Throne waiting as we speak.
This is not what the Lotus says. It says Shakyamuni awoke in the remote past. All Buddhas are his emanation, including the Shakyamuni who appeared in India.
this has been going for so long no one knows the time...look at how long ago Lord Sakyamuni Buddha said he first attained enlightenment..that was just when He attained IT...He was a common mortal for like how long before that...having to go through the samsaric cycle...like being everyone's mother at least 500 times and every sentient being his mother at least 500 times...it's like a long time and this is discussing just one Buddha..i think there were a thousand before this Buddha. ..think of that time period...i mean really if they all were like this Buddha then that time in the Lotus is like for one Buddha...
You're trying to understand Buddha on linear, conditioned terms (that are entirely conditioned by you). That understanding will never be more than an appearance of a provisional Buddha.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by Queequeg »

Minobu wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:10 pm from another thread we have this
_johnarundel_ wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 4:44 pm Finally, in our current age of Mappo, because of our lower capacities, we must receive the seed of Buddhahood for the first time by chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo to the Gohonzon, which is how common mortals can attain Buddhahood in their present form, as taught by Nichiren Daishonin.

couple things about this statement to ponder.

a) At ceremony in the air the Four Leaders of the Bodhisattvas of The Earth ,with Bodhisattvas in the numbers of more than sixty thousand times the grains of sand in the Ganges River,came to ceremony in the air. As explained these are Bodhisattvas trained by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha in the infinite past, and remained dormant if you will , for the work to be done during Mappo. dormant meaning in the sense, at mappo they rise to the occasion, This is what Lord Sakyamuni Buddha trained them for.

b) The Eternal Buddha MyoHo RenGe Kyo is exactly that, Eternal ,and every sentient has a Buddha nature.


It's like taking the three thousand moments of Ichinen Sanzen out of the picture till this true buddha of kuon ganjo arrives on scene...

So this concept of receiving the seed of Buddhahood for the first time seems a concept purely designed in Nichiren shoShu to support their narrative.
which only causes angst if i mention it so i won't...

but this narrative is not common to anyone but Nichiren shoshu and goes against the grain of what a) and b) is explained .
This has never made sense to me.

Buddhanature is the reality of all beings. In ordinary beings, it is obscured.

In a narrative sense, there is this notion that all beings, since beginningless time have been coursing in samsara, oblivious to their real condition. We say the seed was figuratively planted at some point, but its more like pointing at the end of the rainbow - its always beyond reach, but puts beginningless time in terms of cause and effect, which is functionally necessary. It is functionally necessary because we clearly are not awakened, but we are headed to awakening, and our effort (non-effort?) is required to that end.

I've never understood the sowing part; it never sat well with me, and I am relieved I have no reason to account for it.

The only way it makes sense is that samsara is so long and so traumatic that most of us forget what we were taught. The Lotus opens with Manjusri explaining to Maitreya that he heard the Lotus Sutra before, but he (Maitreya) has forgotten. That is remarkable - Maitreya, who will appear in this world as the next Buddha, doesn't even remember the last time he was taught the Lotus Sutra. How does an ordinary person of ordinary intelligence and achievement possibly remember their past learning? Planting a seed is not actually planting a seed - its a reminder of what one has already learned, many many many times before - but we've squandered each opportunity only to fall back into the spin cycle of samsara.

In the Tiantai framework, Buddhanature is threefold - Buddhanature as Direct Cause 正因仏性, Buddhanature as Complete Cause 了因仏性, and Buddhanature as Conditioned Cause 縁因仏性. The first is Buddhanature as our actual reality, our real identity as Buddha; the second is the teaching of our actual reality, ie. the Buddha pointing out our real nature to us; the third is the practices we undertake to realize Buddhahood ourselves. The sowing seems to relate to the second aspect of Buddhanature.

Zhiyi pointed out, if Buddhanature were not our real nature, then it could not be taught to us. That said, to propose a being without Buddhanature is nonsensical.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:19 pm
At that time the world-honored one, having spoken these verses, said to the bodhisattva Maitreya: “With regard to this great multitude I now say this to you. Ajita, these bodhisattvas mahasattva who in immeasurable and countless asamkhyas have emerged from the earth and whom you have never seen before in the past—after I attained supreme perfect enlightenment in this saha world, I converted and guided these bodhisattvas, trained their minds, and caused them to develop a longing for the way. These bodhisattvas have all been dwelling in the world of empty space underneath the saha world. They read, recite, understand the various scriptures, ponder them, make distinctions, and keep them correctly in mind.
I don’t see where this quote refers to tathagatagharba
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Tathagatagharba is the original, unobstructed and totally content, and fully awakened nature of the mind. The reason why it can be said to already be the true nature of the mind of all beings is actually evident in the fact that the actions of all beings, whether misguided, foolish, even harmful, or wise and compassionate, are all aimed at being happy and free from suffering (define those two terms any way you like, but it basically means satisfactory peace of mind without any fear or need for anything else). In other words, all of our actions are attempts at realizing that original content, stable mental state, perfect awakening, or tagathatagharba.

If it were otherwise, if the original mind of all beings was grasping, attachment, anger, and other manifestations of confusion, none of those temporary mental states would result in the experience of suffering, anxiety, and confusion. There would be no point in freeing beings from samsara. There would be no point in a Buddha appearing in this world at all.

It’s like, the original nature of your finger is free of pain. If it were not the finger’s original state, then accidentally hitting your finger with a hammer wouldn’t be experienced as suffering or painful. The same throbbing nerve sensation would be there but it wouldn’t be felt as suffering. Maybe it would feel like an orgasm. A fingergasm. Who knows? But the experience as “pain”, as something negative simply wouldn’t be there.

While chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kho may certainly water the seed of Buddha nature (as long as we are using agricultural metaphors) or may even trigger spontaneous awakening, if that’s the case, the original nature of mind has to be there, just as any “truth” has to be there.

The Buddha didn’t invent the Dharma, he merely explained it, taught it.
...
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:23 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:19 pm
At that time the world-honored one, having spoken these verses, said to the bodhisattva Maitreya: “With regard to this great multitude I now say this to you. Ajita, these bodhisattvas mahasattva who in immeasurable and countless asamkhyas have emerged from the earth and whom you have never seen before in the past—after I attained supreme perfect enlightenment in this saha world, I converted and guided these bodhisattvas, trained their minds, and caused them to develop a longing for the way. These bodhisattvas have all been dwelling in the world of empty space underneath the saha world. They read, recite, understand the various scriptures, ponder them, make distinctions, and keep them correctly in mind.
This is the 15th Chapter. In the 16th, Buddha states that he didn't really awaken in this world but awoke in the remote past.
You miss the point entirely. The OP is trying to resolve what seems a conflict but is not.

Supreme perfect enlightenment is from the primordial buddha the existence it is experienced in is still provisional. It is not one or the other.

This all meant to point to one's own enlightenment from the same source as all thus come ones are enlightened by this sutra (as well as all others that state as much because that represents supreme perfect enlightenment from the primordial buddha.

If one can't conceptualize that it happened in shakyamuni's lifetime one cannot conceptualize that it can happen in one's own.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

Queequeg wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:29 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:26 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:22 pm
exactly thank you very much...Lord Sakyamuni Buddha trained them ...even Jogyo , who is Nichiren Shonin.
Who trained Shakyamuni? Remember there is no self that could independently manufacture a seed of buddhism.
No. When speaking of conventions, emptiness is in the background. What you've done here is throw down the "Emptiness!" trump card, as if that illuminates anything. It doesn't.

Not applicable in the context.
The ten realms and factors are the background the contemplation of which answers that question. The statements means his enlightenment was not independent and wholly self derived.
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Re: Tathagatagarbha

Post by tkp67 »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:13 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon Oct 05, 2020 7:19 pm
At that time the world-honored one, having spoken these verses, said to the bodhisattva Maitreya: “With regard to this great multitude I now say this to you. Ajita, these bodhisattvas mahasattva who in immeasurable and countless asamkhyas have emerged from the earth and whom you have never seen before in the past—after I attained supreme perfect enlightenment in this saha world, I converted and guided these bodhisattvas, trained their minds, and caused them to develop a longing for the way. These bodhisattvas have all been dwelling in the world of empty space underneath the saha world. They read, recite, understand the various scriptures, ponder them, make distinctions, and keep them correctly in mind.
I don’t see where this quote refers to tathagatagharba
It wasn't meant as an answer to your inquiry. The buddha nature within all sentient beings is the basis of this sutra and mentioned throughout.
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