can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

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Minobu
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can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

_johnarundel_ wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:23 pm
Minobu wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:21 am
We are still as you put it , people of Sakyamuni . Read the Entity of the Mystic Law Gosho.. it tells about Lord Sakyamuni and that we all dwell in His body .all sentients are His students.
Now People of The Lotus Sutra are Myo Ho Ren Ge , it's explained better in the Gosho. They , The Bodhisattvas of The Earth under the tutelage of Bodhisattva Jogyo are MYHo RenGe and are doing the work of the Lotus sutra , protecting it and spreading it to liberate Lord Sakyamuni's Students of which we all are... The Bodhisattvas of the Earth were with Lord Buddha Sakyamuni a long time ago...

everyone has the Buddha Nature , original enlightenment is MyoHo Renge , , which is a name for something that had no name at one point in the game...read the gosho...I'm looking forward to taking this Gosho apart from what i think it's about...i could be wrong...but i think i see it a little more clearly ...it plays into all the wrastlin i've had with Malcolm and QQ these past few years...so my understanding is new from a few days ago when this gosho came up in a post. I had been meditating on the entity of MyoHo RenGe and wondering what it's all about...and bingo the DW forum came through. how cool is that ...synchronicity
Thanks for the response. I agree, "The Entity of the Mystic Law" is a very important and inspiring gosho. The part that speaks to me the most concerns how the three paths of earthly desires, karma, and suffering can be transformed into the three virtues of property of the law, wisdom, and emancipation.

Minobu wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:21 am I'm looking forward to taking this Gosho apart


I belive Nichikan Shonin, the twenty sixth High Priest, wrote a commentary on "The Entity of the Mystic Law." I am not sure if the whole thing has been translated from Japanese. If find the transaltion or excerpts I will send them to you if you want.


Minobu wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:21 am everyone has the Buddha Nature


Yes. This is a very important aspect of the Daishonin's teachings. The world of Buddhahood is endowed in our very lifes. When we chant Daimoku our physical form is neither discarded nor changed, but we awaken our inherent Buddha nature

Minobu wrote: Wed Jul 22, 2020 2:21 am original enlightenment is MyoHo Renge

The true cause (honin-myo) which enables all Buddhas to attain their enlightenment is the original law of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo. The teacher of this law is Nichiren Daishonin. The Daishonin states in "True Object of Worship" ("Kanjin no Honzon Sho"),
The core of his [Shakyamuni Buddha] teachings are the one chapter and two halves, and for me it is Myoho-Renge-Kyo alone.

(MW-1 p. 72)


and in "Reply to Kyo'o" ("Kyo'o dono gohenji"),
The Buddha’s will is the Lotus Sutra, but the soul of Nichiren is nothing other than Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

(MW-1 p. 120)


This shows a clear distinction between the Buddhism of the Sowing and the Buddhism of the Harvest, as the Daishonin is original teacher of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo. Whereas, Shakyamuni revealed the true effect in the Lotus Sutra. The true law is hidden in the depth of the Juryo Chapter, which is Daishonin's inner realization.

the heart of the Juryo chapter, which only Nichiren has realized.

("Kanjin no Honzon Sho, MW-1, p. 73)



Ok so this all boils down to the narrative set out by a ShoShu High Priest well after the passing of Nichiren Shonin. That being He is The Primordial Buddha , whom Nichiren Shonin never alluded to even . One literally has to read between the lines and interpret them a certain way in order to create a new school where as you ignore the Bodhisattva Jogyo thing and produce a new paradigm.

The only Nichiren school that sets forth this paradigm is Shoshu. Before it all started with them , not one word on Nichiren being the Primordial Buddha of Kuon Ganjo,,

the narrative actually harms the practitioner for it leads to a whole swath of hoops one has to go through , and interpret stuff in a way only they can see . It takes away from the teaching...hard for me to explain but when i finally do my Entity of The mystic law gosho thread ,you will have tons to insert your view and ignore what others see as the teaching.

any way show me directly where Nichiren preaches that He is this Primordial Buddha or original enlightenment and not Bodhisattva Jogyo..

The only authenticity you bring to this table is the good house keeping seal of approval by ShoShu High Priests.

they twist the passages and read between the lines and come up with their own "NEW" take on the teaching.

When Gosho passages are discussed it becomes a thing to reinforce this ShoShu paradigm.. like here.


The Gakki , the best instrument in spreading the teaching to the new world , follows shoShu...they had to rid the DaiGohonzon thing for political reasons...not the fact the actual plaining of the wood was done with a tool that only came into being hundreds of years after Nichiren Shonin's passing.

They knew that years before the split...i hate knocking ShoShu...but when you study all the other schools , which i just realized are more or less in tune with TenDai , you come to a whole other paradigm . One that actually holds up in Buddhist discussion with the Mahayana people...

when i was in Gakki i was forbidden to study anything other than gakki stuff...In shoShu it was like we are the superior sect , the others only confuse the issue...they don't get what shoshu gets...We have the DaiGohonzon .

the thread might not make the toss...it's very tricky and hard to be like sensitive to, for me anyway...

but i am looking forward to ShoShu to show us without reading between the lines their paradigm on the Primordial Buddha.
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by tkp67 »

He mentions in several goshos the teaching he is propagating to his disciples.
Once one realizes this and can visualize it clearly, then one’s life, as it really is, manifests itself in one’s present existence as the Thus Come One of original enlightenment, and one achieves what is termed the attainment of Buddhahood in one’s present form.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/179

On the Ten Factors
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:56 pm He mentions in several goshos the teaching he is propagating to his disciples.
Once one realizes this and can visualize it clearly, then one’s life, as it really is, manifests itself in one’s present existence as the Thus Come One of original enlightenment, and one achieves what is termed the attainment of Buddhahood in one’s present form.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/179

On the Ten Factors
Are you saying that Nichiren Shonin is teaching His disciples that He is the Primordial Buddha...

i get that we are all manifestations of Myo Ho Ren Ge...and the lotus people are literally MYOHO RenGe ..
but what you just posted does not say that He is the Primordial Buddha .

This narrative totally takes away from what He wants us to realize...it's not some read between the lines and manufacture a narrative to make your school superior and your High Priest above everyone else .

It's all interpretive..and if the interpretation takes away from the Master's original intent of a teaching..and you're hoodwinked into some other read between the lines narrative....what exactly does that say about what these High Priests are doing to the Teachings.

because you can only go down this Kuon Ganjo Primordial Buddha rabbit hole with "read between the lines " narratives. and they tell you what is meant from their personal reading between the lines ...

It's like ok ..Lotus Buddhism spread like wild fire with the whole The Gohonzon is a money machine....

but now it's all out of the bag...was the whole thing just Upaya to appeal to our lower sense abilities . If it was ..cool it's all over now ..we now as a global village learned the truth.
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by tkp67 »

Perhaps original and primordial might mean the same thing in essence (function)?

:anjali:
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:17 pm Perhaps original and primordial might mean the same thing in essence (function)?

:anjali:
I have a horrible feeling now about this thread...

in Buddhism the whole whether there is a primordial Buddha or not is still up for grabs...for some..others feel there is such a thing..

A Buddha by definition is a common mortal who attains Buddhahood.
see the dilemna ?

my point to this thread is i fear that a narrative is being formed for the first time by a select few ...back in the day of course...and uses phrases Nichiren Shonin wrote , to be used to interpret Him being the Primordial Buddha..Every time i read something pertaining to this paradigm , it's always about some hidden meaning behind pretty straight forward words that are not talking about Him being this original Buddha..

it's a can of worms best left up to someone of a higher pay grade than me..

sorry...I'm out..
drops the mike.
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:58 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:17 pm Perhaps original and primordial might mean the same thing in essence (function)?

:anjali:

in Buddhism the whole whether there is a primordial Buddha or not is still up for grabs...for some..others feel there is such a thing..

A Buddha by definition is a common mortal who attains Buddhahood.
see the dilemna ?
Before all else the lotus and Nichiren insist that we practice of one mind so for me I simply never bought into the differential especially since both Shakyamuni and Nichiren declare votary of the lotus sutra under auspices of the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. I don't believe there should be public admonishment of these practices.

None the less the primordial or original teacher/teaching is part and parcel of sentient beings and their environment. The original teacher/teaching is this. Note in bold below " It is Myoho-renge-kyo that is the true Buddha.4 "
The entity of Myoho-renge-kyo in all its splendor—just what is this entity? If we hope to answer this, we must say that it is the eight-petaled white lotus that is the true nature of our own lives. Since this is so, then the essential nature of our lives is Myoho-renge-kyo. And once we have come to understand that Myoho-renge-kyo is not the name of a sutra but is the entity of our own lives, then we will see that our own lives are in fact the Lotus Sutra, and the Lotus Sutra is none other than the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body.

Once we have become enlightened to this, then all the delusions and mistaken habits of thought that we have entertained from the beginningless past until the present will be swept away like yesterday’s dreams and will vanish without a trace.

When we have faith such as this, then it is taught that one chanting of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is equivalent to one recitation of the entire Lotus Sutra carried out just as the sutra prescribes and with the correct understanding of its meaning, that ten chantings are equivalent to ten recitations of the sutra, a hundred chantings are equivalent to a hundred recitations, a thousand chantings are equivalent to a thousand recitations, all carried out just as the sutra prescribes. And one who has such faith may be said to be a person who carries out religious practice just as the sutra prescribes. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/179

On The Ten Factros
QUESTION: The “Expedient Means” chapter in the first volume of the Lotus Sutra states, “The true aspect of all phenomena [can only be understood and shared between Buddhas. This reality consists of the appearance, nature . . . and] their consistency from beginning to end.” What does this passage mean?

Answer: It means that all beings and environments in the Ten Worlds, from hell, the lowest, to Buddhahood, the highest, are without exception manifestations of Myoho-renge-kyo. If there is an environment, living beings are bound to dwell there. A commentary states, “Living beings and their environments always manifest Myoho-renge-kyo.”1 Another says: “The true aspect invariably manifests in all phenomena, and all phenomena invariably manifest in the ten factors. The ten factors invariably manifest in the Ten Worlds, and the Ten Worlds invariably manifest in life and its environment.”2 And “Both the beings and the environment of the Avīchi hell exist entirely within the life of the highest sage [Buddha], and what is more, the life and the environment of Vairochana [Buddha] never transcend the lives of common mortals.”3 These explanations are precise and clear. Who could have doubts? Thus, the entire realm of phenomena is no different than the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo.

Even the two Buddhas, Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, in performing the functions of the benefit of the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, manifested themselves as the two Buddhas, and seated together in the treasure tower, nodded in mutual agreement.

No one but Nichiren has ever revealed teachings like these. Though T’ien-t’ai, Miao-lo, and Dengyō knew about them in their hearts, they never put them into words. They went about their lives keeping this knowledge to themselves. And there was good reason for this. The Buddha had not entrusted them with the task, the time had not yet come, and they had not been the Buddha’s disciples from the distant past. Only Superior Practices, Boundless Practices, and the other foremost leaders and guiding teachers among the Bodhisattvas of the Earth can not only appear during the first five hundred years of the Latter Day of the Law and spread the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, the essence of all phenomena, but also give concrete form to the ceremony of the two Buddhas seated side by side in the treasure tower. The reason is that what they are to spread and give concrete form to is none other than the teaching of the actual three thousand realms in a single moment of life in the “Life Span” chapter of the essential teaching.

p.384Therefore, the two Buddhas, Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, are Buddhas who are functions [of Myoho-renge-kyo]. It is Myoho-renge-kyo that is the true Buddha.4 This is what is described in the sutra as “the Thus Come One’s secret and his transcendental powers.”5 The “Thus Come One’s secret” refers to the entity of the Buddha’s three bodies, and it refers to the true Buddha. “His transcendental powers” refers to the functions of the three bodies, and it refers to provisional Buddhas. A common mortal is an entity of the three bodies, and a true Buddha. A Buddha is a function of the three bodies, and a provisional Buddha. In that case, though it is thought that Shakyamuni Buddha possesses the three virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the sake of all of us living beings, that is not so. On the contrary, it is common mortals who endow him with the three virtues.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:00 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:58 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:17 pm Perhaps original and primordial might mean the same thing in essence (function)?

:anjali:

in Buddhism the whole whether there is a primordial Buddha or not is still up for grabs...for some..others feel there is such a thing..

A Buddha by definition is a common mortal who attains Buddhahood.
see the dilemna ?
Before all else the lotus and Nichiren insist that we practice of one mind so for me I simply never bought into the differential especially since both Shakyamuni and Nichiren declare votary of the lotus sutra under auspices of the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. I don't believe there should be public admonishment of these practices.

None the less the primordial or original teacher/teaching is part and parcel of sentient beings and their environment. The original teacher/teaching is this. Note in bold below " It is Myoho-renge-kyo that is the true Buddha.4 "
The entity of Myoho-renge-kyo in all its splendor—just what is this entity? If we hope to answer this, we must say that it is the eight-petaled white lotus that is the true nature of our own lives. Since this is so, then the essential nature of our lives is Myoho-renge-kyo. And once we have come to understand that Myoho-renge-kyo is not the name of a sutra but is the entity of our own lives, then we will see that our own lives are in fact the Lotus Sutra, and the Lotus Sutra is none other than the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body.

Once we have become enlightened to this, then all the delusions and mistaken habits of thought that we have entertained from the beginningless past until the present will be swept away like yesterday’s dreams and will vanish without a trace.

When we have faith such as this, then it is taught that one chanting of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is equivalent to one recitation of the entire Lotus Sutra carried out just as the sutra prescribes and with the correct understanding of its meaning, that ten chantings are equivalent to ten recitations of the sutra, a hundred chantings are equivalent to a hundred recitations, a thousand chantings are equivalent to a thousand recitations, all carried out just as the sutra prescribes. And one who has such faith may be said to be a person who carries out religious practice just as the sutra prescribes. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/179

On The Ten Factros
QUESTION: The “Expedient Means” chapter in the first volume of the Lotus Sutra states, “The true aspect of all phenomena [can only be understood and shared between Buddhas. This reality consists of the appearance, nature . . . and] their consistency from beginning to end.” What does this passage mean?

Answer: It means that all beings and environments in the Ten Worlds, from hell, the lowest, to Buddhahood, the highest, are without exception manifestations of Myoho-renge-kyo. If there is an environment, living beings are bound to dwell there. A commentary states, “Living beings and their environments always manifest Myoho-renge-kyo.”1 Another says: “The true aspect invariably manifests in all phenomena, and all phenomena invariably manifest in the ten factors. The ten factors invariably manifest in the Ten Worlds, and the Ten Worlds invariably manifest in life and its environment.”2 And “Both the beings and the environment of the Avīchi hell exist entirely within the life of the highest sage [Buddha], and what is more, the life and the environment of Vairochana [Buddha] never transcend the lives of common mortals.”3 These explanations are precise and clear. Who could have doubts? Thus, the entire realm of phenomena is no different than the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo.

Even the two Buddhas, Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, in performing the functions of the benefit of the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, manifested themselves as the two Buddhas, and seated together in the treasure tower, nodded in mutual agreement.

No one but Nichiren has ever revealed teachings like these. Though T’ien-t’ai, Miao-lo, and Dengyō knew about them in their hearts, they never put them into words. They went about their lives keeping this knowledge to themselves. And there was good reason for this. The Buddha had not entrusted them with the task, the time had not yet come, and they had not been the Buddha’s disciples from the distant past. Only Superior Practices, Boundless Practices, and the other foremost leaders and guiding teachers among the Bodhisattvas of the Earth can not only appear during the first five hundred years of the Latter Day of the Law and spread the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, the essence of all phenomena, but also give concrete form to the ceremony of the two Buddhas seated side by side in the treasure tower. The reason is that what they are to spread and give concrete form to is none other than the teaching of the actual three thousand realms in a single moment of life in the “Life Span” chapter of the essential teaching.

p.384Therefore, the two Buddhas, Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, are Buddhas who are functions [of Myoho-renge-kyo]. It is Myoho-renge-kyo that is the true Buddha.4 This is what is described in the sutra as “the Thus Come One’s secret and his transcendental powers.”5 The “Thus Come One’s secret” refers to the entity of the Buddha’s three bodies, and it refers to the true Buddha. “His transcendental powers” refers to the functions of the three bodies, and it refers to provisional Buddhas. A common mortal is an entity of the three bodies, and a true Buddha. A Buddha is a function of the three bodies, and a provisional Buddha. In that case, though it is thought that Shakyamuni Buddha possesses the three virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the sake of all of us living beings, that is not so. On the contrary, it is common mortals who endow him with the three virtues.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40
none of these gosho show up as authentique. from what i can gather online.
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

could be wrong the source is old
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by tkp67 »

Authenticity is one proof. Understanding it and contesting it from a perspective of complete understanding another. I am not saying this to imply that they would or wouldn't hold up under that scrutiny.

Rather I think that this is what one needs to do to determine their true meaning and thus value through understanding them.

I don't believe any of what is being said there cannot be extrapolated from the sutra and the subsequent teachings of Tentai. While leaving the meaning of that extrapolation as still open to interpretation.

Votary against votary is not a reasonable exercise so I seek to leave conclusion out and simply defuse the pre existing slights and start afresh without bias or division against any practitioner. I know this has not been the typical fashion of Nichiren dialog on the internet but I think we have an opportunity to challenge that dynamic.

I will say this much. I do not believe any of the schools use a counterfeit copy of the lotus sutra which is always the foundation for validating these teachings. At some point the basis remains the same. An underlying theme if I understand it correctly.

I hope this finds you well friend :anjali:
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:31 pm
I hope this finds you well friend :anjali:
meh i contacted illarrazza and he might help out.
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by tkp67 »

http://www.geocities.ws/chris_holte/Bud ... puted.html

The source of dependent origin for myoho renge kyo is the lotus sutra itself, not an external authority.

:anjali:
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by narhwal90 »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:31 pm
Votary against votary is not a reasonable exercise so I seek to leave conclusion out and simply defuse the pre existing slights and start afresh without bias or division against any practitioner. I know this has not been the typical fashion of Nichiren dialog on the internet but I think we have an opportunity to challenge that dynamic.
This! :thanks:
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:38 am
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:31 pm
Votary against votary is not a reasonable exercise so I seek to leave conclusion out and simply defuse the pre existing slights and start afresh without bias or division against any practitioner. I know this has not been the typical fashion of Nichiren dialog on the internet but I think we have an opportunity to challenge that dynamic.
This! :thanks:
I'm not into knocking , just need to know what is real and what is not..

i think this whole thing is due to sansho shima..it's like trying to ruin everything ...

imagine no forgeries, no political grabs, unity, ...it's not like the whole thing is handed down word of mouth..

everyone should demand clarity and an end to what sansho shima has proven to have done...proven ?
look at the Bodhisattvas of the Earth ..scattered , confused, having to cow tow to leaderships...at each other's throats...

it's an infamia we all should demand set right..

I mean Nichiren was not some meek person who doesn't speak their mind..Do you think He was afraid to proclaim stuff...do some sneaky thing and let people figure it out like a jigsaw puzzle long after His death...
no way , the Man would have told us , all the shu temples would know it..not just one, a couple of hundred years after the fact, putting it all together and proclaiming for the first time Nichiren is The Buddha of Kuon Ganjo, which in other Buddhist schools is termed the Primordial Buddha.....

meh

all i want is to read something thats like impossible to figure out but at least know it is actual factual writing of my Master...faith should not have to be an issue to ignore authenticity ...

and anyone that is flakey to the point of not demanding truth , is not of Myo Ho Ren Ge , as explained in the gosho entity of the mystic law.
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:00 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:58 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:17 pm Perhaps original and primordial might mean the same thing in essence (function)?

:anjali:

in Buddhism the whole whether there is a primordial Buddha or not is still up for grabs...for some..others feel there is such a thing..

A Buddha by definition is a common mortal who attains Buddhahood.
see the dilemna ?
Before all else the lotus and Nichiren insist that we practice of one mind so for me I simply never bought into the differential especially since both Shakyamuni and Nichiren declare votary of the lotus sutra under auspices of the Buddhas of the ten directions and three times. I don't believe there should be public admonishment of these practices.

None the less the primordial or original teacher/teaching is part and parcel of sentient beings and their environment. The original teacher/teaching is this. Note in bold below " It is Myoho-renge-kyo that is the true Buddha.4 "
The entity of Myoho-renge-kyo in all its splendor—just what is this entity? If we hope to answer this, we must say that it is the eight-petaled white lotus that is the true nature of our own lives. Since this is so, then the essential nature of our lives is Myoho-renge-kyo. And once we have come to understand that Myoho-renge-kyo is not the name of a sutra but is the entity of our own lives, then we will see that our own lives are in fact the Lotus Sutra, and the Lotus Sutra is none other than the sacred word preached by the Buddha in order to make manifest the entities that are our lives. And seeing that, we will know that we ourselves are Thus Come Ones of original enlightenment, who possess the three bodies within a single body.

Once we have become enlightened to this, then all the delusions and mistaken habits of thought that we have entertained from the beginningless past until the present will be swept away like yesterday’s dreams and will vanish without a trace.

When we have faith such as this, then it is taught that one chanting of Nam-myoho-renge-kyo is equivalent to one recitation of the entire Lotus Sutra carried out just as the sutra prescribes and with the correct understanding of its meaning, that ten chantings are equivalent to ten recitations of the sutra, a hundred chantings are equivalent to a hundred recitations, a thousand chantings are equivalent to a thousand recitations, all carried out just as the sutra prescribes. And one who has such faith may be said to be a person who carries out religious practice just as the sutra prescribes. Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-2/Content/179

On The Ten Factros
QUESTION: The “Expedient Means” chapter in the first volume of the Lotus Sutra states, “The true aspect of all phenomena [can only be understood and shared between Buddhas. This reality consists of the appearance, nature . . . and] their consistency from beginning to end.” What does this passage mean?

Answer: It means that all beings and environments in the Ten Worlds, from hell, the lowest, to Buddhahood, the highest, are without exception manifestations of Myoho-renge-kyo. If there is an environment, living beings are bound to dwell there. A commentary states, “Living beings and their environments always manifest Myoho-renge-kyo.”1 Another says: “The true aspect invariably manifests in all phenomena, and all phenomena invariably manifest in the ten factors. The ten factors invariably manifest in the Ten Worlds, and the Ten Worlds invariably manifest in life and its environment.”2 And “Both the beings and the environment of the Avīchi hell exist entirely within the life of the highest sage [Buddha], and what is more, the life and the environment of Vairochana [Buddha] never transcend the lives of common mortals.”3 These explanations are precise and clear. Who could have doubts? Thus, the entire realm of phenomena is no different than the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo.

Even the two Buddhas, Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, in performing the functions of the benefit of the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, manifested themselves as the two Buddhas, and seated together in the treasure tower, nodded in mutual agreement.

No one but Nichiren has ever revealed teachings like these. Though T’ien-t’ai, Miao-lo, and Dengyō knew about them in their hearts, they never put them into words. They went about their lives keeping this knowledge to themselves. And there was good reason for this. The Buddha had not entrusted them with the task, the time had not yet come, and they had not been the Buddha’s disciples from the distant past. Only Superior Practices, Boundless Practices, and the other foremost leaders and guiding teachers among the Bodhisattvas of the Earth can not only appear during the first five hundred years of the Latter Day of the Law and spread the five characters of Myoho-renge-kyo, the essence of all phenomena, but also give concrete form to the ceremony of the two Buddhas seated side by side in the treasure tower. The reason is that what they are to spread and give concrete form to is none other than the teaching of the actual three thousand realms in a single moment of life in the “Life Span” chapter of the essential teaching.

p.384Therefore, the two Buddhas, Shakyamuni and Many Treasures, are Buddhas who are functions [of Myoho-renge-kyo]. It is Myoho-renge-kyo that is the true Buddha.4 This is what is described in the sutra as “the Thus Come One’s secret and his transcendental powers.”5 The “Thus Come One’s secret” refers to the entity of the Buddha’s three bodies, and it refers to the true Buddha. “His transcendental powers” refers to the functions of the three bodies, and it refers to provisional Buddhas. A common mortal is an entity of the three bodies, and a true Buddha. A Buddha is a function of the three bodies, and a provisional Buddha. In that case, though it is thought that Shakyamuni Buddha possesses the three virtues of sovereign, teacher, and parent for the sake of all of us living beings, that is not so. On the contrary, it is common mortals who endow him with the three virtues.
---> https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40

https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/wnd-1/Content/40
actually thanks again for giving me a good example to read...

original enlightenment is MYO HO REN GE , even before it was named...lol..

and according the gosho entity of the mystic law...the Bodhisattvas of the Earth are a manifestation of MYO HO REN GE..


now this piece
5 The “Thus Come One’s secret” refers to the entity of the Buddha’s three bodies, and it refers to the true Buddha.
is what is throwing me off...for i do not recall anywhere where Nichiren Shonin said or used the words True Buddha..

is this commentary or actual gosho writing ..?
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_johnarundel_
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by _johnarundel_ »

Nichiren Daishonin is the only person ever to reveal a law that can lead all beings to attain Buddhahood. This fundamental cause or law is Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo of the Three Great Secret Laws. Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo is the original seed (honshu) that not only allowed Shakyamuni Buddha to attain enlightenment in the remote past, but all Buddhas of the three existences and the ten directions attained enlightenment through practicing this law.

The supreme law of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo contains no expedient means and has never been expounded by any other Buddha or bodhisattva.

Shakyamuni Buddha intentionally appeared in India with the thirty two features and the eighty characteristics in order to attract people with a past karmic relationship, and thus a high capacity for Buddhist understanding. However, the thirty two features was not Shakyamuni’s original status as a Buddha. So, from the standpoint of the Latter Day of the Law, Shakyamuni’s appearance contains expedient means. Even though Shakyamuni Buddha expounded the Essential Teachings of the Lotus Sutra, he retained the aspects of a provisional Buddha, who taught in accordance with the capacities of his listeners.

On the other hand, Nichiren Daishonin, who possesses the original, unchanging, and eternal nature (musa hon’nu)(無作本有), appeared in the Latter Day of the Law as a common mortal. The Daishonin taught no provisional teachings. He thus revealed the original seed of Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, which was the law practiced by the Buddha at the stage of first hearing the name of the Law in the remote past.

There is an important significance to why Nichiren Daishonin inscribed his own name on the Gohonzon right under Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo. This is because the entire Gohonzon represents the very entity of the Daishonin’s enlightened life. The Daishonin states in “Reply to Kyo’o” (“Kyo’o dono gohenji”),
I, Nichiren, have inscribed my life in sumi ink, so believe in the Gohonzon with your whole heart. The Buddha’s will is the Lotus Sutra, but the soul of Nichiren is nothing other than Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

(Gosho, p. 685)


Whether or not, Nichiren Diashonin explicitly says, “I am the original Buddha” is of no importance. What matters is that his life and actions are that of the Buddha who is eternally endowed with the Three Enlightened Properties (musa-no-sanjin)(無作の三身) and who elightens all people. Nichiren Daishonin is the only person in history that revealed the original seed for all of us to attain Buddhahood. The Daishonin's advent as a common mortal allowed him to read the Lotus Sutra with his very own life, by encountering the persecutions described in the Kanji chapter of the Lotus Sutra. Because of his “uncreated” and “unchanging” nature, Nichiren Daishonin’s own life embodies Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo.


Notes:
1. I checked to make sure “Reply to Kyo’o” was authentic. It is accepted by both Nichiren Shu and Nichiren Shoshu. It is published in Nichiren Shu’s Showa Teihon Nichiren Shonin Ibun (昭和定本日蓮聖人遺文) - Nichiren Shu’s main gosho reference


I owe a great deal of gratitude to my temple's priests for always answering my questions and teaching me about True Buddhism.


Minobu wrote: Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:13 pm
Ok so this all boils down to the narrative set out by a ShoShu High Priest well after the passing of Nichiren Shonin. That being He is The Primordial Buddha , whom Nichiren Shonin never alluded to even . One literally has to read between the lines and interpret them a certain way in order to create a new school where as you ignore the Bodhisattva Jogyo thing and produce a new paradigm.

The only Nichiren school that sets forth this paradigm is Shoshu. Before it all started with them , not one word on Nichiren being the Primordial Buddha of Kuon Ganjo,,

the narrative actually harms the practitioner for it leads to a whole swath of hoops one has to go through , and interpret stuff in a way only they can see . It takes away from the teaching...hard for me to explain but when i finally do my Entity of The mystic law gosho thread ,you will have tons to insert your view and ignore what others see as the teaching.

any way show me directly where Nichiren preaches that He is this Primordial Buddha or original enlightenment and not Bodhisattva Jogyo..

The only authenticity you bring to this table is the good house keeping seal of approval by ShoShu High Priests.

they twist the passages and read between the lines and come up with their own "NEW" take on the teaching.

When Gosho passages are discussed it becomes a thing to reinforce this ShoShu paradigm.. like here.


The Gakki , the best instrument in spreading the teaching to the new world , follows shoShu...they had to rid the DaiGohonzon thing for political reasons...not the fact the actual plaining of the wood was done with a tool that only came into being hundreds of years after Nichiren Shonin's passing.

They knew that years before the split...i hate knocking ShoShu...but when you study all the other schools , which i just realized are more or less in tune with TenDai , you come to a whole other paradigm . One that actually holds up in Buddhist discussion with the Mahayana people...

when i was in Gakki i was forbidden to study anything other than gakki stuff...In shoShu it was like we are the superior sect , the others only confuse the issue...they don't get what shoshu gets...We have the DaiGohonzon .

the thread might not make the toss...it's very tricky and hard to be like sensitive to, for me anyway...

but i am looking forward to ShoShu to show us without reading between the lines their paradigm on the Primordial Buddha.
"The five characters of Myoho-Renge-Kyo are the core of the Lotus Sutra and the origin of all Buddhas throughout the entire world. Upon seeing the signs that these five characters now must be propagated, I, Nichiren, have set the precedent, today, at the beginning of the Latter Day of the Law."

- Nichiren Daishonin, “Shuju onfurumai-gosho” 種種御振舞御書


https://www.nichirenshoshu.or.jp/eng/daishonin.html
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Minobu
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

_johnarundel_ wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:22 am
There is an important significance to why Nichiren Daishonin inscribed his own name on the Gohonzon right under Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo. This is because the entire Gohonzon represents the very entity of the Daishonin’s enlightened life. The Daishonin states in “Reply to Kyo’o” (“Kyo’o dono gohenji”),
I, Nichiren, have inscribed my life in sumi ink, so believe in the Gohonzon with your whole heart. The Buddha’s will is the Lotus Sutra, but the soul of Nichiren is nothing other than Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

(Gosho, p. 685)
Whether or not, Nichiren Diashonin explicitly says, “I am the original Buddha” is of no importance. What matters is that his life and actions are that of the Buddha who is eternally endowed with the Three Enlightened Properties (musa-no-sanjin)(無作の三身) and who elightens all people. Nichiren Daishonin is the only person in history that revealed the original seed for all of us to attain Buddhahood. The Daishonin's advent as a common mortal allowed him to read the Lotus Sutra with his very own life, by encountering the persecutions described in the Kanji chapter of the Lotus Sutra. Because of his “uncreated” and “unchanging” nature, Nichiren Daishonin’s own life embodies Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo.[/b]
You remind me of myself back in the day. I am wrong very often and learn and allow myself to learn...I know what you are talking about...i understood it , and believed it.

when reading from the entity of the mystic law that all Bodhisattvas of the Earth are manifested from MyoHo RenGe .. It's due to your paradigm that it was so easy for me to understand...like right away ...i did not have to think about it...it was just something that i read for the first time and realized what it meant...

So Nichiren Shonin taught me this through His gosho ...so He knew...

I wonder what Nichiren Shu 's explanation for this
I, Nichiren, have inscribed my life in sumi ink, so believe in the Gohonzon with your whole heart. The Buddha’s will is the Lotus Sutra, but the soul of Nichiren is nothing other than Nam-myoho-renge-kyo.

(Gosho, p. 685)
maybe a shu person could comment...

but this is all me:

On Gohonzon are other persons of interest Tien Tai the Great and so on...they too have the same life as Nichiren Shonin describes with those words...

Anyone who practices This Buddhism and is a Bodhisattva of the Earth are those words as well . We all have the same human body from our parents and inside us The Dharma Body which grew as we grew in our mother's womb...the chakras and channels and drops....

The Gohonzon is the Lotus sutra and Nichiren was inspired by the death of the martyrs at Astuhara to inscribe the Gohonzon..which developed as you know...The first Gohonzon does not look like the last one...

Nichiren shonin never alluded to being anything other than a common mortal...and yet He showed everyone what they truly are by using Gohonzon..

Every sentient being is The Ten Worlds ... Buddha nature being in all .. ...Add to it that the Gohonzon is a ticket to to Ceremony in the Air..

St. Nichiren was there, I'm pretty sure you were too.


now in order to connect the dots and create the Nichiren ShoShu paradigm.. you end up ultimately saying stuff like
Whether or not, Nichiren Diashonin explicitly says, “I am the original Buddha” is of no importance
It's all nice and very flattering but It's not Who He Was....but hey the stuff i had happen in the Gakki and during my first gojukai what happened and all sort of other stuff...happened with Nichiren Shoshu....so who am i to talk about it like i do...

Ever notice how all of the Daishonin's teachings refer to Sakyamuni Buddha..everything is explained with us living in the body of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha...If you take out the whole Buddha of Kuon Ganjo , initiated at taisekiji , all you are left with are teachings based on True Buddhist Doctrine...

Hey i don't get why there are like 38 or 39 different Nichiren Schools...the calyx of the Lotus sutra ...who knows...somehow like Myo Ho Ren Ge manifest both the pure and the impure ....no choice in the matter it's just the way of Myo Ho Ren Ge ....it's not some God deciding what is produced and when...it just happens...cause it can...or like kids say in Canada ..."why did you do that tommy"...answer..."Cause to " which sounds more like "Cuz to "

keep chanting, keep studying , and wear a mask.
tkp67
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by tkp67 »

There is a prophesy in the Lotus Sutra about multitudes of Bodhisattva of the earth leading people accordingly. How does this factor in this situation?

I feel very deeply about the important significance of Shakyamuni's enlightenment. I feel very strongly about the important sginifigance of Nichiren's enlightenment. I feel very deeply about the important significance of the cause and effect between them both especially in regards to the lotus sutra.

:anjali:
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Queequeg »

I remind posters to be mindful of the sub-forum where this discussion is taking place and urge you to respect the discussion accordingly. I don't think its necessary, but I also remind the intersectarian participants to remain respectful.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta
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Minobu
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jul 24, 2020 4:21 pm There is a prophesy in the Lotus Sutra about multitudes of Bodhisattva of the earth leading people accordingly. How does this factor in this situation?

I feel very deeply about the important significance of Shakyamuni's enlightenment. I feel very strongly about the important sginifigance of Nichiren's enlightenment. I feel very deeply about the important significance of the cause and effect between them both especially in regards to the lotus sutra.

:anjali:
everyone should feel the same...
I think what Nichiren actually did, which pissed of the elitist society , was reveal a way to happiness to the peasantry.

The practice is so powerful and simple , it's devised to liberate the most ignorant. at the very least sets people on the path to liberation.

Now the other matter is that He did not reveal advanced Buddhist practice. Which for sure He knew.
When i do other practices without the daily Nichiren practice, not much happens...but when i do both i get amazing results quickly from other practices...of course i let all this go to ruin and i'm trying to get some semblance of a basic practice....it took about a month to be able to sound like i used to when i chant..and still it's a challenge...you can't turn your back on this and not expect any reprisals...this is the umpteenth time i'm back...

scary stuff.
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Re: can we talk about this/differing sect ideas in Nichiren Schools

Post by Minobu »

So i had a novel thought about why ,if i'm so sure of the whole anti shoshu paradigm, did it flourish world wide with Gakki?

I think in the modern time it was the perfect introduction, and instrument to an instant coffee , materialistic society.

You ended up with what ,3 million people doing the practice all over the planet.. incredible..worked out fine..

so like yeah all of Lord Sakyamuni's different manifestations helped people like me to gain insight and brought us to the practice.

I definitely had something guiding me and touching me back in the beginning...It was the Buddha.

So now this nightmare split happens and opens people's minds to other possibilities, those like me who thirst for truth. The whole Buddha of Kuon Ganjo lets say was put in place by Buddha in order for us to dig down and study...and eventually realize it's all Lord Sakyamuni Buddha...

Time will tell.

but yeah we all are in it together...and if a shoShu person is diligent or a shu person is diligent or any of the other schools of Nichiren Shonin , then enlightenment is assured.

in the end the means justifies the ends...We all are doing the work of Buddha .

take care and wear a mask
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