Sanskrit Daimoku

NeonPhoenixNeko
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Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by NeonPhoenixNeko »

I mentioned this briefly on another topic, but couldn't get much clarification.

I would like to pracitice saying namumyohorengekyo in sanskrit, although I can't seem to find a valid source. Interestingly, I found recordings of people saying it like this from spanish (I think) websites.

Namas Saddharma Pundarika Sutra

Where I am questioning is two spots. For one, I've seen Dharanis which go "Namah Saptanam". When namas is followed by an s. My other concern is that ive seen sutra and sutraM. What might the difference be? In which case it would look like this;

Namah Saddharma Pundarika Sutram

I know it is a very minor thing, and it's the intention that counts, but I can't help feeling snagged by grammer. Especially if I plan on chanting thia for the rest of my life.

Any help or insights are appreciated!

Namu-myoho-renge-kyo
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Caoimhghín »

namasaddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtrāya

The sandhi might dictate an initial geminated "s," I'm not actually sure of that.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
NeonPhoenixNeko
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by NeonPhoenixNeko »

Ah, really? That makes sense since the phrase namo'mitabhaya buddhaya uses the same ya at the end.

What might have been the reason for the m? Would it be a result of preference or completely incorrect?

I would assume the s melds together as well. At least in spoken form, I won't be writing it so that's not much of an issue, but if anyone else knows it would still be great to know.
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Caoimhghín »

I could look it up, but if you are an amateur Sanskrit enthusiast like myself, I think I might issue you a challenge.

How do ḥ and s merge in sandhi?

Is it namasaddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtrāya or namassaddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtrāya? S or ss?

On terms of the m it is wrong here. It's obeisance TO to sermon of the white lotus of the good law, not obeisance AND the sermon of the white lotus of the good law. The -ya is dativity.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Caoimhghín »

Also, I taught myself devānāgari using this website:

https://www.ashtangayoga.info/philosoph ... evanagari/

IAST (International Alphabet of Sanskrit Transliteration) is what we are using here. Enter IAST and observe the devanāgāri that is produced if it please you.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
NeonPhoenixNeko
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by NeonPhoenixNeko »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:10 am I could look it up, but if you are an amateur Sanskrit enthusiast like myself, I think I might issue you a challenge.

How do ḥ and s merge in sandhi?

Is it namasaddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtrāya or namassaddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtrāya? S or ss?

On terms of the m it is wrong here. It's obeisance TO to sermon of the white lotus of the good law, not obeisance AND the sermon of the white lotus of the good law. The -ya is dativity.
I accept your challenge!!

I would think the first, it wouldn't make much sense to have two s's in a row. But I also recall this dharani;

namaḥ saptānāṃ samyaksaṃbuddha koṭīnāṃ tadyathā

oṃ cale cule cundī svāhā

In which case it would be namaḥ saddharma puṇḍarīka sūtrāya.

Which do you think? I return your challenge!
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Caoimhghín »

The question as to what is the difference between sūtra and sūtram is actually quite involved. I'll be able to respond but not for a while. I need to wait until I'm behind a computer, not on a cell phone.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
NeonPhoenixNeko
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by NeonPhoenixNeko »

And okay, no problem, a language like Sanskrit is quite difficult to grasp, especially with no prior history!
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Jainarayan
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Jainarayan »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:50 am namasaddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtrāya

The sandhi might dictate an initial geminated "s," I'm not actually sure of that.
The sandhi for visarga (ḥ as in namaḥ) is namaḥ saddharma...

No change in the visarga before a sibilant. Consider oṃ namaḥ śivāya.
ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
oṃ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
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Jainarayan
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Jainarayan »

NeonPhoenixNeko wrote: Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:32 pm My other concern is that ive seen sutra and sutraM.
Sūtra is a masc. a-stem (nom. sing. sutraḥ), so the final <m> is the accusative, the direct object of a verb... sūtram aham namami or sūtram namamyaham (or any word order): "I revere [the] sūtra" (ok, not the best example of a sentence :shrug: ).

Namah isn't a verb in this usage, and requires the dative. Given that you'd use the dative, not accusative for Namah Saddharma Pundarika Sutram... Namah Saddharmāya Pundarikāya Sutrāya. I am pretty sure all the nouns and adjectives have to be in the same case.
ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
oṃ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
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Jainarayan
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Jainarayan »

Jainarayan wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:07 pm I am pretty sure all the nouns and adjectives have to be in the same case.
Checked...

Yes, all in the dative. Consider the Shivopasana (Shiva's epithets)...

Namaste astu bhagavan
vishveshvarāya mahādevāya tryambakāya
tripurantakāya trikagnikalāya kalagnirudrāya
nilakanthāya mrutyunjayāya sarveshvarāya
sadashivāya shriman mahādevāya namah
ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
oṃ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
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Caoimhghín
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Caoimhghín »

Jainarayan wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:57 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:50 am namasaddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtrāya

The sandhi might dictate an initial geminated "s," I'm not actually sure of that.
The sandhi for visarga (ḥ as in namaḥ) is namaḥ saddharma...

No change in the visarga before a sibilant. Consider oṃ namaḥ śivāya.
Yeah I just looked at a the standard Tibetic dedication at at the opening of the LS and saw namaḥ sarvabuddhabodhisattvebhyaḥ, which made me second guess myself.

I think I was confusing the nama with the nāma infix you find in constructions like Ākāśagarbhanāmamahāyānasūtra.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Jainarayan
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Jainarayan »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:22 pm
Jainarayan wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:57 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 1:50 am namasaddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtrāya

The sandhi might dictate an initial geminated "s," I'm not actually sure of that.
The sandhi for visarga (ḥ as in namaḥ) is namaḥ saddharma...

No change in the visarga before a sibilant. Consider oṃ namaḥ śivāya.
Yeah I just looked at a the standard Tibetic dedication at at the opening of the LS and saw namaḥ sarvabuddhabodhisattvebhyaḥ, which made me second guess myself.

I think I was confusing the nama with the nāma infix you find in constructions like Ākāśagarbhanāmamahāyānasūtra.
Yep, that too. sarva ... -ebhyaḥ is plural. I have an invocation in my daily puja (sadhana) om sarvebhyoh devebhyo namaḥ (masc. pl.), "reverence to all deities". Sanskrit can make your brain bleed then explode. :rolling:
ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
oṃ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Caoimhghín »

Jainarayan wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:22 pm
Jainarayan wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:57 pm

The sandhi for visarga (ḥ as in namaḥ) is namaḥ saddharma...

No change in the visarga before a sibilant. Consider oṃ namaḥ śivāya.
Yeah I just looked at a the standard Tibetic dedication at at the opening of the LS and saw namaḥ sarvabuddhabodhisattvebhyaḥ, which made me second guess myself.

I think I was confusing the nama with the nāma infix you find in constructions like Ākāśagarbhanāmamahāyānasūtra.
Yep, that too. sarva ... -ebhyaḥ is plural. I have an invocation in my daily puja (sadhana) om sarvebhyoh devebhyo namaḥ (masc. pl.), "reverence to all deities". Sanskrit can make your brain bleed then explode. :rolling:
Now, would you consider this to be reverence to 1 or 2 points, grammatically. I noticed it doesn't say sarvadevebhyaḥ, but rather the sarva is treated independently. Would you say that, explanation/instruction as to the meaning of the phrase aside, that the Sanskrit is a little bit grammatically ambiguous as to if the "all" and the "gods" are different things?

Like "Om, to the all, to the gods, I bow."
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Minobu
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Minobu »

I've chanted Om Namo sad Dharma pundrarika Sutra ...and meditated on it as a mantra..

sad dharma pundarika sutra...

the syllables might be incorrect but it sounds right....yes / no...

I think Nam Myoho renge Kyo is imbued with something i would call "Divine Buddha Stuff" in this age on earth...

I believe "IT" is now part and parcel to the Jungian Arch type philosophy of the human mind.
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Jainarayan
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Jainarayan »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:12 pm
Jainarayan wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 5:22 pm
Yeah I just looked at a the standard Tibetic dedication at at the opening of the LS and saw namaḥ sarvabuddhabodhisattvebhyaḥ, which made me second guess myself.

I think I was confusing the nama with the nāma infix you find in constructions like Ākāśagarbhanāmamahāyānasūtra.
Yep, that too. sarva ... -ebhyaḥ is plural. I have an invocation in my daily puja (sadhana) om sarvebhyoh devebhyo namaḥ (masc. pl.), "reverence to all deities". Sanskrit can make your brain bleed then explode. :rolling:
Now, would you consider this to be reverence to 1 or 2 points, grammatically. I noticed it doesn't say sarvadevebhyaḥ, but rather the sarva is treated independently. Would you say that, explanation/instruction as to the meaning of the phrase aside, that the Sanskrit is a little bit grammatically ambiguous as to if the "all" and the "gods" are different things?

Like "Om, to the all, to the gods, I bow."
Well, sarva (neuter) is an adjective and inflected along with the noun it modifies. https://sanskrit.inria.fr/cgi-bin/SKT/s ... &font=roma

Now, because of sandhi sarvebhyaḥ devebhyah becomes sarvebhyo devebhyo (visarga before d, dh or n becomes o). So devebhyoḥ before namaḥ becomes devebhyo, giving sarvebhyo devebhyo namaḥ. So there are two things going on in the phrase... inflection of the adjective and noun, and sandhi, all conspiring to make you want to hurt yourself.

Btw, in case it didn't go unnoticed, in my previous post I miswrote "I have an invocation in my daily puja (sadhana) om sarvebhyoh devebhyo namaḥ". It should be om sarvebhyo devebhyo namaḥ not sarvebhyoh. I got carried away with my visargas. :lol:
ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
oṃ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Caoimhghín »

How splendid. Now I get to learn too.

But this inflection for agreement across all terms is optional, yes? For instance, I over see sarva in stem-form, like in sarvaloke, all over the world, and the aforementioned namaḥ sarvabuddhabodhisattvebhyaḥ, which has two stacked uninfected stems (I think it's called a dvandva compound or something like this? Point being there is an invisible conjunction between Buddha & bodhisattva and only the last term is declined)?
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
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Jainarayan
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Jainarayan »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:25 pm How splendid. Now I get to learn too.

But this inflection for agreement across all terms is optional, yes? ...
Yes, of course. I meant to point out that the rules of grammar are often dispensed with for devotional practice. Even among Hindus, who are usually sticklers for reciting mantras and slokas (relatively) perfectly. It's the intention behind the utterances, chanting, or recitations. Even sandhi can be dispensed with in spoken and prose Sanskrit. It's required only for verse, hymns, etc. Of course, the more you know, the easier it is to understand something you might come across that doesn't seem to make sense, or is contradictory. And yes, we have the issue of dvanda... the ability to concatenate nouns into a single one.
ॐ नमो भगवते वासुदेवाय
oṃ namo bhagavate vāsudevāya
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by Caoimhghín »

NeonPhoenixNeko wrote: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:20 am Which do you think? I return your challenge!
I didn't mean to not respond to this. I think that since you seem to be new, your posts take a few to show up on the board. For instance, when I made my second post to you your responce was not yet visible.

As it stands, I think your question was answered by Jainarayan.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di:
yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia.

"All formations are inconstant," he said.
"All formations are stressful," he said.
"All phenomena are selfless," he said.
When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity.

(Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)
NeonPhoenixNeko
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Re: Sanskrit Daimoku

Post by NeonPhoenixNeko »

So from this gathered information, the correct way to spell would be...

namaḥ saddharmāya puṇḍarīkāya sūtrāya

And yes, I am new so my replies do yake a while to be approved unfortunately. Also to be honest I can barely keep up with all this! :rolling:

Two new concerns now!

1: In 'āya', the letter a with the line over it is to represent emphasis, correct? Is it necessary? So would this work, I want to say a reverence phrase to Akṣhobhya Buddha;

namo akṣhobhāya buddhāya, or namo akṣhobhaya buddhaya?

2: Should the letter a always be there, no matter what when adding 'ya'? What would you do if the word doesn't end in an a, such as amogasiddhi buddha;

namo amogasiddhāya, or namo amogasiddhiya?
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