Can I mix Nichiren with Shinto? Isn't mixing practices bad?
Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:47 am
Thoughts?
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This would seem to be one of the starting points: https://www.reddit.com/r/Shinto/mechashivaz wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:17 pm How would one practice Shinto outside of religious structure in Japan? (Assuming you're not living in Japan) Wouldn't one have to train with Shinto Priests?
Sorry, but Inari Okami is not a Fox Spirit, this is a misrepresentation. Fox spirits (Gokenzoku) are rather his/her messager, but distinct entities. Inari Okami is a composite deity, quite complex, that encompasses the kami of rice and agriculture (Uganomitama), and other Kami as well.Queequeg wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:10 pm To answer the second question -
Mixing practices - we need to define.
NMRK is a single pointed practice. If you confuse it with other practices, yes, that is bad, for you. It will bring confusion to your mind. For instance, directing NMRK to a fox spirit (inari) (this is a practice you find at some shrines in Japan) will cause confusion. If you cause others to adopt these ideas, that is worse, because now you are also causing confusion for others.
Kami Reverence is a different practice than NMRK. It is, in the scheme, a supplemental practice, and comparatively minor one. Kami who have vowed to protect Dharma practitioners are protectors. To confuse them with the Buddha is a big mistake.
Yes, Jodo Shinshu, and also Nichiren Shoshu and other schools connected with Fuji lineage.Yuren wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:15 pm From my studies of Japanese Buddhism and time spent in Japan, traveling around temples and talking to some teachers, I can tell you only Jōdo Shinshū of all schools is explicitly forbidding people from mixing Shinto and Buddhism.
Others do not have a problem with such 'mixing, incl. Nichiren, Soto Zen.
http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/OFUMI.htmlFurthermore, we simply do not rely on any of the other buddhas and bodhisattvas or on the various kami; we must never belittle them. We must recognize that each and every one of the various kami is indeed included within the virtue of Amida, the one buddha. Without exception, do not disparage any of the various teachings. By [adhering to] these points, one will be known as a person who carefully observes our tradition’s rules of conduct. Hence the Master said, “Even if you are called a ‘cow thief,’ do not act in such a way that you are seen as an aspirant for [buddhahood in] the afterlife, or as a ‘good’ person, or as a follower of the Buddha-Dharma; these were his very words. We must practice the nenbutsu, keeping these points very carefully in mind.
"Of all the many places in Japan, Nichiren was born in the province of Awa. It is said that the Sun Goddess first dwelt in this province, where she began exploring the land of Japan. An estate exists there dedicated to the goddess, who is the compassionate father and mother to all living beings in this country. Therefore, this province must be of great significance. What karma from the past caused Nichiren to be born in this same province?" (p. 452) The Swords of Good and Evil
The Great Bodhisattva Hachiman"On considering this, we can see that, because persons who put their faith in the Lotus Sutra are following an honest doctrine, Shakyamuni Buddha himself will protect them. How then could it happen that Great Bodhisattva Hachiman, who is his manifestation, would fail to protect them?" (p.1082)
We can argue about the meaning of Shinto, but it wasn't widely used until the Meiji era to describe kami reverence, and that use was promoted by the proponents of state Shinto who also persecuted Buddhism. People just ought to know the history behind the present use of that word.Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:35 pmSorry, but Inari Okami is not a Fox Spirit, this is a misrepresentation. Fox spirits (Gokenzoku) are rather his/her messager, but distinct entities. Inari Okami is a composite deity, quite complex, that encompasses the kami of rice and agriculture (Uganomitama), and other Kami as well.Queequeg wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:10 pm To answer the second question -
Mixing practices - we need to define.
NMRK is a single pointed practice. If you confuse it with other practices, yes, that is bad, for you. It will bring confusion to your mind. For instance, directing NMRK to a fox spirit (inari) (this is a practice you find at some shrines in Japan) will cause confusion. If you cause others to adopt these ideas, that is worse, because now you are also causing confusion for others.
Kami Reverence is a different practice than NMRK. It is, in the scheme, a supplemental practice, and comparatively minor one. Kami who have vowed to protect Dharma practitioners are protectors. To confuse them with the Buddha is a big mistake.
Regarding mixing Nichiren buddhism and shinto, it's common in some traditions, specially in Nichiren Shu, to offer didication prayers to some specific Kami after Gongyo and I don't think it creates any kind of confusion.
There are more than one foreign ordained Shinto Priests, some also related to quite complex Shinto traditions that developed from middles ages and the beginning of modern era.
What you brand as being Shinto here, is just one expression of Shinto, or State Shinto, that developed into the Meiji Era, which was part of a State Nationalist Ideology. But there are still many types of Shinto as there are Shrines in Japan, from modern sectarian shinto which works like any organized religion, with scriptures, hierarchy etc. To local folk practices and also Buddhist-Shinto practice. Nichiren Shu keeps a whole spectrum of Hokke Shinto or Lotus Shinto in its lineages. I have an Ofuda from a Nichiren Temple which also happens to have in it the 30 Kamis of the days of the month, or Sanjubanjin. And yes, I pray to it in a quite shintoist fashion!
Letter to MisawaUtsubusa came a long distance to visit me despite her advanced age, but since I was told that it was merely a casual visit on her way back from the shrine to the god of her ancestors, I would not see her, although I pitied her greatly. Had I permitted her to see me, I would have been allowing her to commit slander against the Lotus Sutra. The reason is that all gods are subjects, and the Lotus Sutra is their lord. It is against even the code of society to visit one’s lord on the way back from calling on one of his subjects. Moreover, Utsubusa is a lay nun and should have the Buddha foremost in mind. Because she made this and other mistakes as well, I refused to see her.
The first reference of the using of the word "Shinto" is from the Asuka Period, than Meiji Era. Shinto based sects exist since medieval times, with the Ise Sect of the Watarai clan, which mixed native beliefs with Buddhism, Taoism and also Confucian. Then you have more complex sects in the beginning of the modern era with Yoshida Kanetomo, who founded a brand of organized shinto, with scriptures and esoteric practices, which dominated most of Shinto priesthood until Meiji reformation (such sects also have a variety of formal practices much beyond simple "kamir veneration", including esoteric meditations, "shinto goma", visualizations, breathing exercises etc). It later acquired a very much neo-confucian taste with Kanetomo and other Kokugaku thinkers. Without obviously referencin the many Shugendo practices which are syncrectic in nature.Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:10 pmWe can argue about the meaning of Shinto, but it wasn't widely used until the Meiji era to describe kami reverence, and that use was promoted by the proponents of state Shinto who also persecuted Buddhism. People just ought to know the history behind the present use of that word.Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:35 pmSorry, but Inari Okami is not a Fox Spirit, this is a misrepresentation. Fox spirits (Gokenzoku) are rather his/her messager, but distinct entities. Inari Okami is a composite deity, quite complex, that encompasses the kami of rice and agriculture (Uganomitama), and other Kami as well.Queequeg wrote: ↑Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:10 pm To answer the second question -
Mixing practices - we need to define.
NMRK is a single pointed practice. If you confuse it with other practices, yes, that is bad, for you. It will bring confusion to your mind. For instance, directing NMRK to a fox spirit (inari) (this is a practice you find at some shrines in Japan) will cause confusion. If you cause others to adopt these ideas, that is worse, because now you are also causing confusion for others.
Kami Reverence is a different practice than NMRK. It is, in the scheme, a supplemental practice, and comparatively minor one. Kami who have vowed to protect Dharma practitioners are protectors. To confuse them with the Buddha is a big mistake.
Regarding mixing Nichiren buddhism and shinto, it's common in some traditions, specially in Nichiren Shu, to offer didication prayers to some specific Kami after Gongyo and I don't think it creates any kind of confusion.
There are more than one foreign ordained Shinto Priests, some also related to quite complex Shinto traditions that developed from middles ages and the beginning of modern era.
What you brand as being Shinto here, is just one expression of Shinto, or State Shinto, that developed into the Meiji Era, which was part of a State Nationalist Ideology. But there are still many types of Shinto as there are Shrines in Japan, from modern sectarian shinto which works like any organized religion, with scriptures, hierarchy etc. To local folk practices and also Buddhist-Shinto practice. Nichiren Shu keeps a whole spectrum of Hokke Shinto or Lotus Shinto in its lineages. I have an Ofuda from a Nichiren Temple which also happens to have in it the 30 Kamis of the days of the month, or Sanjubanjin. And yes, I pray to it in a quite shintoist fashion!
As for where the kami stand in relation to the Buddha, Nichiren made it clear, especially in this passage:
Letter to MisawaUtsubusa came a long distance to visit me despite her advanced age, but since I was told that it was merely a casual visit on her way back from the shrine to the god of her ancestors, I would not see her, although I pitied her greatly. Had I permitted her to see me, I would have been allowing her to commit slander against the Lotus Sutra. The reason is that all gods are subjects, and the Lotus Sutra is their lord. It is against even the code of society to visit one’s lord on the way back from calling on one of his subjects. Moreover, Utsubusa is a lay nun and should have the Buddha foremost in mind. Because she made this and other mistakes as well, I refused to see her.
Chanting Daimoku to Inari - people can do what they want. To suggest that such a practice fits within Nichiren's teachings is totally indefensible.
I'm not sure if its a language thing or what, but I don't think we are communicating.Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:32 pm The first reference of the using of the word "Shinto" is from the Asuka Period, than Meiji Era. Shinto based sects exist since medieval times, with the Ise Sect of the Watarai clan, which mixed native beliefs with Buddhism, Taoism and also Confucian. Then you have more complex sects in the beginning of the modern era with Yoshida Kanetomo, who founded a brand of organized shinto, with scriptures and esoteric practices, which dominated most of Shinto priesthood until Meiji reformation (such sects also have a variety of formal practices much beyond simple "kamir veneration", including esoteric meditations, "shinto goma", visualizations, breathing exercises etc). It later acquired a very much neo-confucian taste with Kanetomo and other Kokugaku thinkers. Without obviously referencin the many Shugendo practices which are syncrectic in nature.
The perception many westerners have of Shinto today, is strongly tied to the Meiji reforms, and subsequent results, such as the genesis of modern "Shrine Shinto" controlled mainly by Jinja Honcho and the many shinto-based new religions, such as Oomoto. But even Shrines such as kasuga, sometimes promoted teachings, sometime via oracles etc, see for exemple the Sanja Takusen oracles.
People also chant sutras and mantras in shinto shrines. Even in the Shoshu prayer book there are dedications for the protective deities in the prayer section. So you think the syncrectic practice as advocated by Nichizo Shonin are misdirected? I agree that any practice besides the Odaimoku is auxiliary, that is the official Nichiren Shu view, which is also quite in agreement with many of Nichiren's own ideias. But I also think that there is nothing wrong in combining such things. Have you never asked the reasen why Nichiren did put two Kami within his own Mandala?
Why? And can you elaborate please?Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:55 pm I am well aware of the place of kami in Nichiren Buddhism. I also know that kami are protectors. They are not Buddha. Very big mistake to confuse those two functions.
Like I said, people can do what they want. Chanting daimoku to kami does not fit in Nichiren's teachings.
As I said, Shinto teachings based on nativist beliefs is much older than the actual Meiji and post-meiji Shinto . It began taking shape in Medieval Times, by the 15th centy it was already fairly codified and using the word "shinto"Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:55 pm The word "Shinto" as you point out has been around, but it didn't take on the meaning generally ascribed to it now until the Meiji period. Before that, Buddhism and kami worship were closely and almost seamlessly mixed. When they started using "Shinto" it was part of their deliberate effort to distinguish what was thought to be intrinsically Japanese compared to the foreign polluting influence of Buddhism.
If you understand what that word Shinto generally means NOW, post Meiji, its hard to reconcile it with Buddhist syncretism. Shinto stands for a deliberate rejection of syncretism, and Buddhism in particular.
Friend, I don't know what your real life experience with Shinto is. At this time in Japan, Shinto is very much tied up with Japanese right wing nationalism. Please go to Ise and explain to the priests there how it is perfectly natural for non-Japanese to be able to participate in Shinto. Explain to them how Amaterasu is a guardian of the Lotus Sutra. You will be met with vehement denials. How do I know this? Because I personally know scholars who, with nothing but scholarly curiosity and earnestness have been ambushed and hounded out of conferences by so called Shinto Scholars for discussing the long intertwined history of temples and shrines. I know scholars who have been black listed because they dared to research and write about the deep connections and affiliation between shrines and temples throughout Japan's recorded history.Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:31 pmAs I said, Shinto teachings based on nativist beliefs is much older than the actual Meiji and post-meiji Shinto . It began taking shape in Medieval Times, by the 15th centy it was already fairly codified and using the word "shinto"Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:55 pm The word "Shinto" as you point out has been around, but it didn't take on the meaning generally ascribed to it now until the Meiji period. Before that, Buddhism and kami worship were closely and almost seamlessly mixed. When they started using "Shinto" it was part of their deliberate effort to distinguish what was thought to be intrinsically Japanese compared to the foreign polluting influence of Buddhism.
If you understand what that word Shinto generally means NOW, post Meiji, its hard to reconcile it with Buddhist syncretism. Shinto stands for a deliberate rejection of syncretism, and Buddhism in particular.
for self-referral!
http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwo ... ntryID=372
南無妙法蓮華経 - namu myoho renge kyo - "I declare refuge/reverence/devotion to the Sublime Dharma of the White Lotus Teaching"Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:23 pmWhy? And can you elaborate please?Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:55 pm I am well aware of the place of kami in Nichiren Buddhism. I also know that kami are protectors. They are not Buddha. Very big mistake to confuse those two functions.
Like I said, people can do what they want. Chanting daimoku to kami does not fit in Nichiren's teachings.
First of all, I never denied the existence of syncretic Shinbutsu Shugo, this was an important part of Japanese spirituality, and this is still evident in some places and Buddhist institutions tied to Shugendo for exemple and even some Nichiren Sects. But what we call Shinto and some of its ideas and practices already existed much before Meiji era, specially if you give some time to read the material I sent you.Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:50 pmFriend, I don't know what your real life experience with Shinto is. At this time in Japan, Shinto is very much tied up with Japanese right wing nationalism. Please go to Ise and explain to the priests there how it is perfectly natural for non-Japanese to be able to participate in Shinto. Explain to them how Amaterasu is a guardian of the Lotus Sutra. You will be met with vehement denials. How do I know this? Because I personally know scholars who, with nothing but scholarly curiosity and earnestness have been ambushed and hounded out of conferences by so called Shinto Scholars for discussing the long intertwined history of temples and shrines. I know scholars who have been black listed because they dared to research and write about the deep connections and affiliation between shrines and temples throughout Japan's recorded history.Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:31 pmAs I said, Shinto teachings based on nativist beliefs is much older than the actual Meiji and post-meiji Shinto . It began taking shape in Medieval Times, by the 15th centy it was already fairly codified and using the word "shinto"Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:55 pm The word "Shinto" as you point out has been around, but it didn't take on the meaning generally ascribed to it now until the Meiji period. Before that, Buddhism and kami worship were closely and almost seamlessly mixed. When they started using "Shinto" it was part of their deliberate effort to distinguish what was thought to be intrinsically Japanese compared to the foreign polluting influence of Buddhism.
If you understand what that word Shinto generally means NOW, post Meiji, its hard to reconcile it with Buddhist syncretism. Shinto stands for a deliberate rejection of syncretism, and Buddhism in particular.
for self-referral!
http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwo ... ntryID=372
When we talk about Shinto, we are very much talking about politics and national identity in Japan. It doesn't matter what that word may have meant in the past. Right now, Shinto means Japanese nationalism.
As I stated in my first post - there is that phenomena, which is identified by its proponents as "Shinto", and the the broader, organic animism that I described as Kami Reverence. This is not a "religion" in the sense of having rites of initiation, though there are, under the umbrella of Kami Reverence various cults. Rather, its a sensibility that life permeates everywhere and in everything, and that it is all to be respected and revered. If you don't have an organic experience in it, its hard to understand.
Its a sensibility that each tree has a spirit. That each rock has a spirit. That an umbrella has a spirit. The computer through which we interact, and all those miles of fiber optic cable and satellites - all are animated with kami. These things are as alive as we are, and deserving of acknowledgment and respect.
If you want to include all that in the term "shinto" that's fine. I'm going to point out how that is a problematic use of the term.
That's all.
南無妙法蓮華経 - namu myoho renge kyo - "I declare refuge/reverence/devotion to the Sublime Dharma of the White Lotus Teaching"Nyedrag Yeshe wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:23 pmWhy? And can you elaborate please?Queequeg wrote: ↑Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:55 pm I am well aware of the place of kami in Nichiren Buddhism. I also know that kami are protectors. They are not Buddha. Very big mistake to confuse those two functions.
Like I said, people can do what they want. Chanting daimoku to kami does not fit in Nichiren's teachings.
Chanting Daimoku to a kami literally makes no sense.