"Realms"

GDPR_Anonymized001
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Re: "Realms"

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

tkp67 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:48 pm
jake wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:32 pm Sorry, I don't see the link with this and what the OP was asking. You're quoting a section about the nine methods of teaching the Dharma. It's nothing to do with the Ten Realms.
If you read the previous and subsequent text within expedient means he addresses beings in the six realms and then voice hearers, pratyekabuddha and bodhisattavas respectively discriminating between them all. It is necessary to read it all on context but is far too great to post here in the entirety without violating the TOA.
I see, so because the Buddha saw the suffering of beings in the six realms and then taught the expedient means of the three vehicles Zhiyi collectively referred to this as the ten realms based on Chapter 2?

btw, the passage to which I think you refer:
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/2 Pg 76 -77 wrote:I see the living beings in the six paths, how poor and distressed they are, without merit or wisdom, how they enter the perilous road of birth and death, their sufferings continuing with never a break, how deeply they are attached to the five desires, like a yak enamored of its tail, blinding themselves with greed and infatuation, their vision so impaired they can see nothing. They do not seek the Buddha, with his great might, or the Law that can end their suffering, but enter deeply into erroneous views, hoping to shed suffering through greater suffering. For the sake of these living beings I summon up a mind of great compassion. When I first sat in the place of enlightenment and gazed at the tree and walked around it, for the space of three times seven days I pondered the matter in this way. The wisdom I have attained, I thought, is subtle, wonderful, the foremost. But living beings, dull in capacity, are addicted to pleasure and blinded by foolishness. With persons such as this, what can I say, how can I save them?
At that time the Brahma kings, along with the heavenly king Shakra, the four heavenly kings who guard the world, and the heavenly king Great Freedom, in company with the other heavenly beings and their hundreds and thousands and ten thousands of followers, reverently pressed their palms together and bowed, begging me to turn the wheel of the Law. Immediately I thought to myself that if I merely praised the buddha vehicle,
then the living beings, sunk in their suffering, would be incapable of believing in this Law. And if they rejected the Law and failed to believe in it,
they would fall into the three evil paths. It would be better if I did not preach the Law but quickly entered into nirvana. Then my thoughts turned to the buddhas of the past and the power of expedient means they had employed, and I thought that the way I had now attained should likewise be preached as three vehicles."
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tkp67
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Re: "Realms"

Post by tkp67 »

jake wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:23 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:48 pm
jake wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:32 pm Sorry, I don't see the link with this and what the OP was asking. You're quoting a section about the nine methods of teaching the Dharma. It's nothing to do with the Ten Realms.
If you read the previous and subsequent text within expedient means he addresses beings in the six realms and then voice hearers, pratyekabuddha and bodhisattavas respectively discriminating between them all. It is necessary to read it all on context but is far too great to post here in the entirety without violating the TOA.
I see, so because the Buddha saw the suffering of beings in the six realms and then taught the expedient means of the three vehicles Zhiyi collectively referred to this as the ten realms based on Chapter 2?

btw, the passage to which I think you refer:
https://www.nichirenlibrary.org/en/lsoc/Content/2 Pg 76 -77 wrote:I see the living beings in the six paths, how poor and distressed they are, without merit or wisdom, how they enter the perilous road of birth and death, their sufferings continuing with never a break, how deeply they are attached to the five desires, like a yak enamored of its tail, blinding themselves with greed and infatuation, their vision so impaired they can see nothing. They do not seek the Buddha, with his great might, or the Law that can end their suffering, but enter deeply into erroneous views, hoping to shed suffering through greater suffering. For the sake of these living beings I summon up a mind of great compassion. When I first sat in the place of enlightenment and gazed at the tree and walked around it, for the space of three times seven days I pondered the matter in this way. The wisdom I have attained, I thought, is subtle, wonderful, the foremost. But living beings, dull in capacity, are addicted to pleasure and blinded by foolishness. With persons such as this, what can I say, how can I save them?
At that time the Brahma kings, along with the heavenly king Shakra, the four heavenly kings who guard the world, and the heavenly king Great Freedom, in company with the other heavenly beings and their hundreds and thousands and ten thousands of followers, reverently pressed their palms together and bowed, begging me to turn the wheel of the Law. Immediately I thought to myself that if I merely praised the buddha vehicle,
then the living beings, sunk in their suffering, would be incapable of believing in this Law. And if they rejected the Law and failed to believe in it,
they would fall into the three evil paths. It would be better if I did not preach the Law but quickly entered into nirvana. Then my thoughts turned to the buddhas of the past and the power of expedient means they had employed, and I thought that the way I had now attained should likewise be preached as three vehicles."
I don't know if it was taught that way but perhaps that is the orthodox understanding. What I find remarkable is that these meanings seem to be expressed throughout the sutra and how they appear might vary according to reader. So there may be multiple accounts accordingly with differing appeal.

I draw the inference from other parts of the chapter such as the following (they are not sequential). Below he buddha is describing how the various beings of the 3 vehicles perceive the true aspect. Elsewhere he details denizens of the six realms as well as directly references them in the passage you quote.
The many disciples of the buddhas
in the past have given offerings to the buddhas,
have already cut off all outflows
and now are dwelling in their last incarnations.
But even such persons as they
have not the power needed.
Even if the whole world
were filled with men like Shariputra,
though they exhausted their thoughts and pooled their capacities,
they could not fathom the buddha wisdom.
Even if the ten directions
were all filled with men like Shariputra
or like the other disciples,
though they filled the lands in the ten directions
and exhausted their thoughts and pooled their capacities,
still they could not understand it.
If pratyekabuddhas, acute in understanding,
without outflows, in their last incarnations,
should fill the worlds in the ten directions,
as numerous as bamboos in a grove,
though they should join together with one mind
for a million or for countless kalpas,
hoping to conceive of the Buddha’s true wisdom,
they could not understand the smallest part of it.
If bodhisattvas newly embarked on their course
should give offerings to numberless buddhas,
completely mastering the intent of the various doctrines
and also able to preach them effectively,
like so many rice and hemp plants, bamboos or reeds,
filling the lands in the ten directions,
p.59with a single mind, with their wonderful wisdom,
for kalpas numerous as Ganges sands
should all together pool their thoughts and capacities,
they could not understand the buddha wisdom.
If bodhisattvas who never regress,
their number like Ganges sands,
with a single mind should join in pondering and seeking,
they could not understand it either.
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