Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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Minobu
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Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:02 pm Speaking as moderator, since the Dai-gohonzon is associated with Nichiren Shoshu and has historically been a sensitive topic, it would be well to leave conversation about it to those concerned.

That said, questions of authenticity etc as discussed here are pertinent to all the schools- there are many original and presumed original gohonzons with surrounding lore, so I'd be glad to split the topic into something more generally focused in the main Nichiren forum.
I was trying to make a point about a gohonzon is a gohonzon is a gohonzon.

It does not matter who transcribes it ...once transcribed it is a gohonzon..

this might sound weird ...but there was never any intention on my part to actually discuss the Dai gohonzon in and of itself...

it was an example to make a point about gohonzon...and what people have come to be told about them...which is just sectarian ...

once a gohonzon is inscribed it is authentique...

once the Lotus sutra , via gongyo and Daimoku is placed in front of it ...it becomes The buddha according to my interpretation of the gosho...


Nichiren explains how the same effect can be made with certain statues and The Lotus sutra...

my thread ...my posts anyway....have nothing to do with sectarianism, except in the light , to me , they all are like one big sect....the nNchiren Sect.
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Re: Dai Gohonzon

Post by Minobu »

illarraza wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:01 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:59 pm anyone who can ,can mimic a Nichiren gohonzon with the same ODaimoku down the centre , the whole nine yards...put it on paper or wood ..



if you do gongyo in front of it , even in one's ignorance of what it is....it becomes Buddha
WHY?


Cause ....It's inside us...it is us....

no matter who inscribed it.....

as long as it is the same formula of characters as Nichiren Shonin left us...

thats the meaning in His gosho.....

this is what the Buddha left for us an for the next 10 thousand years of Mappo...

There is not one special Gohonzon...


like i asked....ever think about all those gohonzon being Buddha all over the place...millions of them in different sects..even sects that are not ShoShu or Shu...

The sects that people are told are heretical nichiren sects....those Gohonzon are the same Buddha...


any narrative that is said otherwise ..is a power play for you....and then the control sets in....


rome did it with christianity...the pope is a vessel for the divine word of God...I went to Catholic School in Quebec...during those years they could get away with telling us The Catholic church is God's only true church...

the Crusades were based on this....it's a narrative that abuses people with religion and they are the True and Only ....


Nichiren left 6 senior priests....i believe IMHO He knew it would split and split and split due to power hungry people....but it doesn't matter ...cause the people that chant to these various sectarian Gohonzon ...all get to be with The Buddha...and due to their karma and diligent practice ...they will overcome the authoritarian man made bullshit and lore...

nichiren was exiled for attacking authority...

He left the world something that overrides any man made lore to lure you into some sect that wants to control you with ...we are the only way to gohonzon and Nichiren 's teachings..the others are slander...they will lead you to hell......


the Reality is all it takes is gongyo and ODaimoku in front of the Gohonzon for it to become this concept of eye opened..
And is your opinion about the necessity of an Eye Opening Ceremony?

mark
i'm just going by what i read in gosho...

place Lotus sutra in front of a certain set of statues or a gohonzon and you have the desired effect.
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Re: Dai Gohonzon

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:44 pm
illarraza wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:01 pm
Minobu wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:59 pm anyone who can ,can mimic a Nichiren gohonzon with the same ODaimoku down the centre , the whole nine yards...put it on paper or wood ..



if you do gongyo in front of it , even in one's ignorance of what it is....it becomes Buddha
WHY?


Cause ....It's inside us...it is us....

no matter who inscribed it.....

as long as it is the same formula of characters as Nichiren Shonin left us...

thats the meaning in His gosho.....

this is what the Buddha left for us an for the next 10 thousand years of Mappo...

There is not one special Gohonzon...


like i asked....ever think about all those gohonzon being Buddha all over the place...millions of them in different sects..even sects that are not ShoShu or Shu...

The sects that people are told are heretical nichiren sects....those Gohonzon are the same Buddha...


any narrative that is said otherwise ..is a power play for you....and then the control sets in....


rome did it with christianity...the pope is a vessel for the divine word of God...I went to Catholic School in Quebec...during those years they could get away with telling us The Catholic church is God's only true church...

the Crusades were based on this....it's a narrative that abuses people with religion and they are the True and Only ....


Nichiren left 6 senior priests....i believe IMHO He knew it would split and split and split due to power hungry people....but it doesn't matter ...cause the people that chant to these various sectarian Gohonzon ...all get to be with The Buddha...and due to their karma and diligent practice ...they will overcome the authoritarian man made bullshit and lore...

nichiren was exiled for attacking authority...

He left the world something that overrides any man made lore to lure you into some sect that wants to control you with ...we are the only way to gohonzon and Nichiren 's teachings..the others are slander...they will lead you to hell......


the Reality is all it takes is gongyo and ODaimoku in front of the Gohonzon for it to become this concept of eye opened..
And is your opinion about the necessity of an Eye Opening Ceremony?

mark
i'm just going by what i read in gosho...

place Lotus sutra in front of a certain set of statues or a gohonzon and you have the desired effect.
Here is some commentary and questions I had regarding the Nichiren Shu Eye Opening Ceremony that the readers can find online:

Commentary. I think the Nichiren Shu Eye Opening Ceremony is an excellent outline. I also believe that a few things may be changed depending on one's realization and awakening. For example, I don't like the following: "Lord Teacher Sakyamuni Buddha, the World-Honored One, and the Great Bodhisattva Nichiren, the Founder of our Order, are nothing without the Wonderful Dharma." and I would remove it.

Also, there is a controversy about whether an Eye Opening Ceremony is even necessary. Nichiren writes:

"Unless one who has grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra conducts the eye-opening ceremony for a wooden or painted image, it will be as if a masterless house were to be occupied by a thief, or as if, upon death, a demon were to take possession of one’s body."

Certainly a Nichiren inscribed Gohonzon was eye opened by Nichiren, one who certainly had grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra. Then too, is not a copy of a Nichiren Gohonzon already endowed with the merit and benefit of the inscribed and originally Eye Opened Gohonzon of Nichiren? What about a copy of a Gohonzon inscribed by someone else who we are not sure has grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra? Then, do we need to perform an Eye Opening Ceremony ourselves or should we ask someone who we believe has grasped the essence of the Lotus Sutra to a higher degree?

Minobu assertd, as long as one places the Lotus Sutra (Myoho renge kyo or Namu Myoho renge kyo) in front of the image, the Eye Opening Ceremony is complete. If we take Nichiren at his word, "When the Lotus Sutra (Myoho renge kyo) is placed before an image possessing thirty-one features, the image never fails to become the Buddha of the pure and perfect teaching", Minobu may be correct.

However, regarding a statue or a statue arrangement, Nichiren advises his faithful lay disciple, Toki Jonin, to ask Nitcho, one of the Six senior priests, to consecrate his statue of Shakyamuni Buddha by reciting before it "the entire Lotus Sutra". Does that mean that chanting the Daimoku before a statue or a statue arrangement is insufficient as an Eye Opening Ceremony but not regarding Gohonzon? I would like to know what a Priest thinks as well as all our readers.

Mark
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

Post by narhwal90 »

Where I practiced in the old days in NSA my district leader would make setting up a new member's altar something of an eye-opening ceremony; helping to set up the altar, hanging the gohonzon, essentially handing the practice to a new member. Often other members of the district would donate beads, book, water offering cup, incense and some of the ashes from their own altars and so on.

We still do a bit of that these days, though the last couple I participated in people wanted their butsudans hung on the wall, so I brought my tool-bag and level instead :D
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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narhwal90 wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 12:59 pm

We still do a bit of that these days, though the last couple I participated in people wanted their butsudans hung on the wall, so I brought my tool-bag and level instead :D
Something mystic about that offering. Can’t quite put my finger on it

Ancient temple builder enters NSA
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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As per my inserting the concept of statues and what Nichiren said on the subject....

it just goes to show you that He was about so much more than mere introducing jambudvipa to Gohonzon.

He understood Buddhist science ...

The more i read gosho...all new to me....The more one realizes the depth to which Nichiren understood Buddhism.

so many surprize prizes to read...

I think there is also a reason to use from the earth products to transcribe Gohonzon on....like paper or wood...

due to the enlightenment of plants .....

it's like the time Lord Ganesa drank milk for three days all over the world...the statues had to be made of something of the earth...

oddly online news of this has changed from what happened to what who ever controls the internet wants to be read....for real !...


https://www.google.com/search?q=lord+ga ... e&ie=UTF-8


truth is i know friends who had little metal statues drinking as much milk as offered...

it has nothing to do with surface tension...they just do not do it anymore...


40 thousand or 60 thousand people lined up for three days at the Vishnu temple in Richmond toronto...they all gave milk....it does not work anymore...

this might sound of topic...but you do realize Nichiren shonin really worked with these Hindu gods and knew all about them and put some on gohonzon...

early days of my practice it was almost like shunning gods...bad mistake...
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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from the split off thread.....::::
reiun wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:40 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:02 pm some random thoughts.
Forgetting about your own personal problems and realize they are temporary but focusing on others is the Buddha's way.
As a practical matter, imo, to be fit to focus on/take care of others, one must first and always focus on/take care of oneself, i.e., take responsibility for oneself. Right action can proceed from this.
reflecting on this this morning i see your point differently ..

without working on oneself with the practice of faith study and practice...you cannot really reach people in this important Buddhist Way...

becoming a higher being , a more advanced human with bodhisattva attributes coming to the fore to help others...

a daily feeding of MyoHo RenGe Kyo to the various Shoten Zenjin which are part and parcel to our make up...sunyata comes to mind ...in the sense as the shoten zenjin are but pieces of samsara...

So we offer Daimoku to feed and enhance those gods dwelling with and sort of within us...we are part and parcel of them....

how else are we to climb out of the lower worlds we have grown so accustomed to...


the gohonzon is all nine worlds of samsara...with gohonzon we can trick the ichinen sanzen into a higher realm to dwell in...

not easy , not instant...but this is the growth process of a Nichiren buddhist...IM not so H O ...lol...just being honest...i mean who is really humble...lol...something to work on..


ever do something so stupid you head feels like a nuclear waste dump...the heat is incredible...thats a hot hell...

if that happens to you it is sign you are dwelling in hell on earth...

just saying...
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:01 pm from the split off thread.....::::
reiun wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:40 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:02 pm some random thoughts.
Forgetting about your own personal problems and realize they are temporary but focusing on others is the Buddha's way.
As a practical matter, imo, to be fit to focus on/take care of others, one must first and always focus on/take care of oneself, i.e., take responsibility for oneself. Right action can proceed from this.
reflecting on this this morning i see your point differently ..

without working on oneself with the practice of faith study and practice...you cannot really reach people in this important Buddhist Way...

becoming a higher being , a more advanced human with bodhisattva attributes coming to the fore to help others...

a daily feeding of MyoHo RenGe Kyo to the various Shoten Zenjin which are part and parcel to our make up...sunyata comes to mind ...in the sense as the shoten zenjin are but pieces of samsara...

So we offer Daimoku to feed and enhance those gods dwelling with and sort of within us...we are part and parcel of them....

how else are we to climb out of the lower worlds we have grown so accustomed to...


the gohonzon is all nine worlds of samsara...with gohonzon we can trick the ichinen sanzen into a higher realm to dwell in...

not easy , not instant...but this is the growth process of a Nichiren buddhist...IM not so H O ...lol...just being honest...i mean who is really humble...lol...something to work on..


ever do something so stupid you head feels like a nuclear waste dump...the heat is incredible...thats a hot hell...

if that happens to you it is sign you are dwelling in hell on earth...

just saying...
Nichiren reflected:

"My disciples, you should believe what I say and watch what happens. These things do not occur because I myself am respectworthy, but because the power of the Lotus Sutra is supreme. If I praise myself, people will think that I am boastful, but if I humble myself, they will despise the sutra. The taller the pine tree, the longer the wisteria vine hanging from it. The deeper the source, the longer the stream. How fortunate, how joyful! In this impure land, I alone enjoy happiness and delight."

Many of the Greek philosophers, for example Diogenes, were likewise in a quandary, "should I be outspoken or should I be deferential"? I think Nichiren chose to be boastful for the sake of the Sutra. Nichiren was not ecumenical because the Sutra is not ecumenical. Nichiren proudly proclaimed himself, "the Supreme Votary of the Lotus Sutra" and "the Sage Nichiren" because, as he stated, "the power of the Lotus Sutra is supreme." All Bodhisattvas of the Earth, those with same mind as Nichiren, are exalted beings and often, we too are considered boastful. If we seem boastful it is not for own sake, it is for the sake of the Sutra.
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

Post by illarraza »

Minobu wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 7:01 pm from the split off thread.....::::
reiun wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:40 pm
Minobu wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:02 pm some random thoughts.
Forgetting about your own personal problems and realize they are temporary but focusing on others is the Buddha's way.
As a practical matter, imo, to be fit to focus on/take care of others, one must first and always focus on/take care of oneself, i.e., take responsibility for oneself. Right action can proceed from this.
reflecting on this this morning i see your point differently ..

without working on oneself with the practice of faith study and practice...you cannot really reach people in this important Buddhist Way...

becoming a higher being , a more advanced human with bodhisattva attributes coming to the fore to help others...

a daily feeding of MyoHo RenGe Kyo to the various Shoten Zenjin which are part and parcel to our make up...sunyata comes to mind ...in the sense as the shoten zenjin are but pieces of samsara...

So we offer Daimoku to feed and enhance those gods dwelling with and sort of within us...we are part and parcel of them....

how else are we to climb out of the lower worlds we have grown so accustomed to...


the gohonzon is all nine worlds of samsara...with gohonzon we can trick the ichinen sanzen into a higher realm to dwell in...

not easy , not instant...but this is the growth process of a Nichiren buddhist...IM not so H O ...lol...just being honest...i mean who is really humble...lol...something to work on..


ever do something so stupid you head feels like a nuclear waste dump...the heat is incredible...thats a hot hell...

if that happens to you it is sign you are dwelling in hell on earth...

just saying...
Hi Minobu, I read your comment again a couple of times. Every being, sentient or insentient, contains the Ten Worlds. Please don't ask me how plants and rock contain the Ten Worlds because I would have to heavily quote Nichiren. Leaving that aside for moment, lets assume that this is true. Then Gohonzon, as in human beings, goes through various worlds from moment to moment but has one or several worlds to which it habitually returns far more often than other worlds. The Gohonzon habitually and overridingly returns to the World of Buddhahood (just like the Buddha). That is why we benefit chanting to that object, thanks to its powers of the Buddha and the Law. Of course it also contains the 9 samsaric worlds also but its predominate world is the World of Buddhahood.
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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illarraza wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:27 pm
Hi Minobu, I read your comment again a couple of times. Every being, sentient or insentient, contains the Ten Worlds. Please don't ask me how plants and rock contain the Ten Worlds because I would have to heavily quote Nichiren. Leaving that aside for moment, lets assume that this is true. Then Gohonzon, as in human beings, goes through various worlds from moment to moment but has one or several worlds to which it habitually returns far more often than other worlds. The Gohonzon habitually and overridingly returns to the World of Buddhahood (just like the Buddha). That is why we benefit chanting to that object, thanks to its powers of the Buddha and the Law. Of course it also contains the 9 samsaric worlds also but its predominate world is the World of Buddhahood.
As per the enlightenment of plants , I think it is due to the fact that Buddha nature can be seen in everything if one is enlightened.

Or the aspects of Buddha nature is in everything.

Or when one is enlightened they can see the Buddha nature in all things ...

I think this is due to the Buddha purifying the Saha world and making it the Saha world the Buddha's land...

the Buddha imbues??? the Saha World with buddha nature...

you see it is all sort of foggy due to me not being enlightened.

we are pointed to what could be the concept...but we don't know for we are unenlightened ...


same when one talks about Buddhahood being a world unto itself in the ichinen sanzen theory...

saying the gohonzon goes through
Then Gohonzon, as in human beings, goes through various worlds from moment to moment but has one or several worlds to which it habitually returns far more often than other worlds. The Gohonzon habitually and overridingly returns to the World of Buddhahood (just like the Buddha).
this is a personal view...your view....

you are giving Gohonzon a humanlike form unto itself...Not unlike how Abrahamic religions give their God Creator human attributes...

Can one view Gohonzon as some sort of human form...

what about the two mandalas the Womb world and the Diamond world depicted on gohonzon...

i think i dunnoo...you are declaring that it is like some thing other than what it is....

we have two Vedic gods inscribed on gohonzon by nichiren,which are showing us that all the Vedic gods can be addressed ....

it's a tool for the Buddha to be able to lead sentients to Buddhahood.

we don't know what buddha hood is all about...

if you do please let us know....


true ! due to the enlightenment of plants the Buddha is able to reside in gohonzon...This is because the paper and wood are basically from the same essence of world as you or me...Buddha can appear in any organic substance and do "IT"S" thing....


I'm sort of playing off your words Mark...

just saying stuff....
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

Post by Minobu »

IMO

Buddhahood or Namu MyoHo RenGe Kyo is the medicine to all ills.

It's like the medicine for one's hell...or the medicine to enhance one's learning...
It's the thing that purifies , gives itself up in altruism...

It enhances all of one's daily coming and goings...

It's the Jewel that had to wait for a Buddha to Imbue the saha world with It...

going out on a limb here :
once a Buddha attained Buddhahood , that world was planted into all life...
The saha world became The Lotus Sutra
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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The "opening of the eyes" was originally a ceremony in which the eye was painted on statues of buddhas and bodhisattvas.

In China and Japan it merged with the consecration ceremony that is a general tradition in Buddhism, from Theravada to Nichiren.

The consecration ceremony for Buddhist statues involves, in addition to painting the eye, the insertion of sutras, mantras, relics, and the like, inside the statues, which are usually hollow, or the invocation of the spiritual aspect on painted images.

Nichiren speaks clearly of the importance of the eye-opening ceremony being performed through the recitation of the Lotus Sutra, while speaking at the ceremony through the association of the image with copies of the Sutras.

However, there is something to think about. Nichiren had thousands of followers, but there are very few Mandalas written by him. What is the reason?
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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about 120 of Nichirens originals have survived, many others lost to fire and misadventure. Nikko painted many also, others of the various lineages made them too. Back in the day production was complicated, not on a mass production basis. Conferral was also a serious question, and provenance of an original gave authority, at least among the priesthood.
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

Post by illarraza »

ronnymarsh wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:53 am The "opening of the eyes" was originally a ceremony in which the eye was painted on statues of buddhas and bodhisattvas.

In China and Japan it merged with the consecration ceremony that is a general tradition in Buddhism, from Theravada to Nichiren.

The consecration ceremony for Buddhist statues involves, in addition to painting the eye, the insertion of sutras, mantras, relics, and the like, inside the statues, which are usually hollow, or the invocation of the spiritual aspect on painted images.

Nichiren speaks clearly of the importance of the eye-opening ceremony being performed through the recitation of the Lotus Sutra, while speaking at the ceremony through the association of the image with copies of the Sutras.

However, there is something to think about. Nichiren had thousands of followers, but there are very few Mandalas written by him. What is the reason?
Do you have any proof that Nichiren had thousands of followers? I believed, more like several hundred? If that is correct and most Gohonzons were bestowed on priests? then 120 or so extant Nichiren Gohonzons were an astounding number that were preserved? I could be wrong about all my beliefs and assumptions. I have several of Ken Mandara's books. I'm not sure he addresses how many were bestowed by Nichiren.

Mark
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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From my reading many were bestowrd on priests, but quite a few to lay people as well. They were not given to everyone. Some.of the ones lost to time are known, some not. Documentation is spotty. IIRC there are some.educated guesses as to how many Nichiren originals have.been lost but i dont have my books with me.
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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illarraza wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:37 am

Do you have any proof that Nichiren had thousands of followers? I believed, more like several hundred?

Mark
I love these tid bits...i never thought of this...but due to these people i was shakkabukked...there is a lineage...

we all have the lineage that leads to Nichiren DaiShonin directly...

i wonder if i am in the fifty ..

If Nichiren made maybe 200 gohonzon...then i would imagine there must be a few thousand believers by the time of His death...
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

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It wasnt just Nichiren, a number of his 1st gen priests made them too. One doesnt need a gohonzon to practice, though it sure helps. Quite a few of the coffeehouse gohonzons are large format and hung in temples untill obscured by smoke and falling to tatters- lots of folks chanting to them.
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Re: Gohonzon; considerations on authenticity, provenance, faith

Post by ronnymarsh »

illarraza wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:37 am
ronnymarsh wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:53 am The "opening of the eyes" was originally a ceremony in which the eye was painted on statues of buddhas and bodhisattvas.

In China and Japan it merged with the consecration ceremony that is a general tradition in Buddhism, from Theravada to Nichiren.

The consecration ceremony for Buddhist statues involves, in addition to painting the eye, the insertion of sutras, mantras, relics, and the like, inside the statues, which are usually hollow, or the invocation of the spiritual aspect on painted images.

Nichiren speaks clearly of the importance of the eye-opening ceremony being performed through the recitation of the Lotus Sutra, while speaking at the ceremony through the association of the image with copies of the Sutras.

However, there is something to think about. Nichiren had thousands of followers, but there are very few Mandalas written by him. What is the reason?
Do you have any proof that Nichiren had thousands of followers? I believed, more like several hundred? If that is correct and most Gohonzons were bestowed on priests? then 120 or so extant Nichiren Gohonzons were an astounding number that were preserved? I could be wrong about all my beliefs and assumptions. I have several of Ken Mandara's books. I'm not sure he addresses how many were bestowed by Nichiren.

Mark
We can assert this from inference.
We know the main disciples and followers of Nichiren through his writings, such as Nanjo Tokimitsu, Toki Jonin, Nichinyo Ama, Myoichi Ama, among others.
If we take these 10 people mentioned and imagine that they could transmit to ten other people, then only in this core we can infer a number of adherents equal to 100. But we know that conversions are usually carried out immediately between parents, children, wives and husbands, that is, between four classes of influences, then that 100 people quickly becomes 400.
So, if we make this inference in terms of other disciples and adepts, also cited but of lesser relevance, then not the least we can assume is that Nichiren had about 4000 to 5000 followers, most of them converted during the initial moments when the Nichiren's teaching was based on embracing the Lotus Sutra and Shakyamuni Buddha, without inserting the element "mandala gohonzon" that only appears after the exile in Sado.
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