How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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tkp67
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

Thank you Ronny for taking the time to make that clear.
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

I always have embraced certain teachings fully in order to explore them.

My embracing the whole Lord Sakyamuni Buddha being the Eternal Buddha concept comes from QQ and what he teaches.

Maybe it's a Ten Dai thing you have to embrace in order to fully embrace Ten Dai ????
In any case ...

I have had problems with the this.

There are Buddhist texts that talk of like these major Buddhas like Lord Sakyamuni Buddha who come and go.
Apparently they have been a few before and more to come in the future.

Then because of my background before landing in Tibetan Buddhism I asked Rinpoche about the Primordial Buddha, a term i first heard there.

The whole term Eternal Buddha was not heard of by me it was The Buddha of Kuon Ganjo that pointed to this.

Anyway.

Rinpoche said the verdict is still out on that , because it happened so long ago no one remembers .

But trying to embrace Lord Sakyamni Buddha as The Eternal Buddha does have it's problems like Ronnie here pointed out.

The nagging question for moi, is even in sutra it tells the stories about Him going through eons of common mortal and then the Bodhisattva path ..

QQ has always insisted that the whole kalpas and crushing up atoms and walking for kaplas and placing one particle down means He is the Eternal Buddha. He has always said that is what this equation of time points to, i have always insisted that even though it appears a long time ago , it is still finite.

In other words ,even though that sounds like a long time it is just a speck in time on how long ago Lord Sakyamuni Buddha first attained enlightenment.

so yeah by embracing this other concept that all Buddhas and Bodhisattvas that we hear of are emanations of The Eternal Buddha Sakyamuni , led me to the idea that .."Well then obviously the 4 Leaders of the BOA are emanations there by ...thats why Nichiren Shonin is an emannation..

Like all the different religions and ideas i fully embrace in order to come to terms with them it has it's moment with me and then crumbles.


SO

HERE IS WHERE I IS AT .

The Lotus Sutra is an Entity .

That Entity is the Primordial Buddha .

it is pure Dharmakaya.

It is what all Buddhas past and future attain Buddhahood from.

It can only be fully understood once you actually attain Buddhahood.

Lord Sakyamuni Buddha gave us a teaching called the Lotus Sutra and all it's stories and what not to present us with This entity.

Lord Sakyamuni Buddha trained four Great Bodhisattvas and a bunch of guys and gals to do the whole BOA thing.
Nichiren Shonin is one of those Gang of four...(could not help myself lol )

And we are a mix of BOA and common mortals first hearing about This Entity in our recent lives.

and thanks ronnie...
But i can't buy into the fake gosho and documents, which you admitted might not be of Nichiren Shonin's hand, in order to make this equation that proves Nichiren shonin to be Anyone other than Bodhisattva Jogyo..

in a nutshell...
I shall no longer refer to Lord Sakyamuni Buddha as the Primordial Buddha.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

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Removed post containing excessive quotation, please note Nichiren forum policy here; https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=26060
ronnymarsh
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by ronnymarsh »

Mr. Minobu, from the perspective of Hokke Buddhism (Tendai and Nichiren), Honbutsu is not just pure Dharmakaya.

Dharmakayas are manifestations of a Buddha. Thus, all Buddhas who are worshiped by Buddhisms, including Mahavairocana and Vairocana, who are Buddhas of the Dharma Body, are also manifestations of some Buddha. This Buddha is Shakyamuni from the remote past, according to the perspective of the Lotus Sutra.

All of these Buddhas appear in Sutras that were taught by Shakyamuni, therefore, they are all "skillful means" applied by O'Shaka-sama in order to assist sentient beings on their particular path of emancipation. Even Sutras where it is not Shakyamuni who preaches, its validity is only given through confirmation by Shakyamuni or because it is a known manifestation of him, as is the case with the Mahavairocana Sutra [Tantra] and Heart Sutra.

What the Lotus Sutra presents, in terms of the Buddha’s identity, is something that, in the Sutra’s own words, is difficult to understand: Shakyamuni, who is believed to have been born in India 2500 years ago, is just a temporary manifestation of a Older Shakyamuni, who attained enlightenment in the remote past.

This teaching is of seminal importance for people who lived in the time of Shakyamuni and in the centuries immediately after his time. The following is:

In the pre-Lotus Sutra teachings, enlightenment is achieved through a cultivation that takes thousands of kalpas, in which the practitioner accumulates merit and reaches the four stages of enlightenment. These four stages are known through the nomenclature they receive in Sravakayana: stage of entering the stream; of what returns once, of what no longer returns, and of Arhat; but the Bodhisatvayana, which is normally divided into 52 stages, can also be grouped into four, as well as that of those who embrace the Lotus Sutra.

This means that the person who converted to Buddhism and started his process of walking towards enlightenment would still have a lot to cultivate, passing ages without reaching the goal, especially when he was uppasaka, since the practice for this category of follower was to cultivate merits to be reborn in a condition that was favorable to enter the Sangha (to become a bikkhu).

So, when Shakyamuni revealed in Honmon that he had become Buddha in an extremely remote and unimaginable past, and that since that moment he has been preaching and making disciples, it means that the people who were born at that time and having contact with Shakyamuni were actually the one infinity of Bodhisattvas on Earth who had become disciples of the Buddha and practiced the Bodhisattva path for that long and unimaginable time.

That is, since the person is a boddhisatva who has cultivated the path for long kalpas, he does not need to practice for that long period of time climbing through the four stages of enlightenment, the upasakas no longer need to cultivate merits to become monks, women they no longer need to cultivate good karma to be born as men, ...

Enlightenment becomes suddenly accessible and conquered in that very existence. The Lotus Sutra is a text that exposes the fundamentals of two fundamental doctrines of eastern Mahayana Buddhism: sudden enlightenment and tathagatagharba, which is why in Tendai and Nichiren the Sutra is always related to the Mahayana Sutra of Parinirvana which is one of the greatest exponents of the tathagatagharba theory.

it is in this sense that Nichiren calls Shakyamuni Buddhism "harvest Buddhism", because the cause of enlightenment (the seed of Buddhahood / Tathagatagharba) had already been planted in the remote past by Shakyamuni when leading enlightenment. Since Shakyamuni had become Buddha through his relationship with his Master: the Sublime Dharma of the White Lotus Flower, those people who had become Shakyamuni's disciples in the remote past were able to maintain a relationship with the cause through him. So, the only thing needed for these people is to reap the fruit of the seed of Buddhahood, the effect of the Tathagatgharba.

This is the meaning of the Lotus Sutra in general, and the reason why it is revered among the Buddhist schools adept at tathagatagharba and sudden enlightenment, and this is the general meaning of Shakyamuni's identity as Buddha of the remote Past.

Honbutsu, however, is the one that has both cause and effect, which is why it is called "Hon" (original), that point from which everything arises. All Buddhas in all bodies exist only as an effect, so each of the three bodies of Buddhas are only parts of the original Buddha. Honbutsu is the one who is endowed with the three bodies. In Japanese this is said to be "isshin soku sanjin sanjin soku isshin" (one body as three bodies, three bodies as one body).

Thus, the Eternal (Original) Buddha is called "Saddharma Pundarika", or "Sublime Lotus Flower Dharma". It is called "pundarika" (lotus flower) because it contains both the cause and the effect of Buddhahood. The cause is what we call "tathagatagharba" or "innate Buddha nature", and the effect is the three bodies of Buddha. Its name is also "Sublime Dharma" because it is a law (something naturally immutable) whose nature is difficult to understand.

It is in this sense also that the name "Nichiren" has a profound meaning, which helps to understand this perspective of Nichiren as Honbutsu in person.

you see, if we translate the two terms that form the name of the school's founder into Sanskrit, he would be called "Vairocana-pundarika". In Japanese this is not so obvious, but when we move on to Sanskrit, with which we are more accustomed to in the Buddhist nomenclature, this notion becomes quite evident. That is, Nichiren means "vairocana" [Buddha] endowed with pundarika [cause and effect].

.................................................. ....
This is something that is extremely common and commonplace in Buddhism, and is not an indiosyncratic feature of this part of the Fuji school.

If you look for images of Shandao (like the one illustrated on the wikipedia page about him), the most important patriarch of Pure Land's thought, you'll see that he is portrayed from the waist up in Chinese monk's clothes, and from the waist down with golden clothes, like the Buddha. This is a way of identifying Shandao as a manifestation of Amida Nyorai, who at Pure Land School is understood to be the Original Buddha.
-------------------------------------------------- ----

The whole issue of Nichiren as the Original Buddha is due to a very specific factor: the understanding of the three ages of Dharma.

As, according to this understanding, we are living in the End of Dharma Era, this means that we, who were born at that time, are NOT earth bodhisattvas, are NOT endowed with the innate Buddha nature (tathagatagarbha), and do NOT have relationship with Shakyamuni.

Being born as a human being is extremely rare, it is tremendous good luck. However, the beings born in the End of Dharma are those who practiced heavy slander in previous lives, the icchantikas. When the heavy negative karma was exhausted we left the lower realms and managed to be born as humans, however, as a consequence we were unable to be born in a period where the relationship with the Buddha is in effect.

Without this relationship, we have no way of obtaining the seeds of Buddhahood, and without external assistance, we are basically doomed to remain eternally in this endless cycle of samsara, without the effective possibility of attaining enlightenment. That is why in Nichiren there are four elements that are extremely important for contemplation, the first of which is contemplation about "time.

Meditating on the time in which we live is crucial to understanding and accepting who we are, and without accepting what we are, it is impossible to attain enlightenment, even if one has spent a lifetime practicing Zen meditation, reciting the name of Buddha, mudras and mantras, and other. Because without this understanding, it is not possible to take the appropriate medication.

Shinran Shonin, for example, the founder of JodoShinshu (Nichiren's rival) speaks in Tannishô: "I am unable to do any good, there is no other destination for me than hell".

This is a tremendous and correct insight. I, who was born in this age of degeneration, am just a slanderous being unable to do good karma and achieve emancipation, I have no future destiny other than to return to hell, and to live this endless cycle of deaths and rebirths. I, alone, am not in a position to attain enlightenment and get rid of Samsara, only an "other power" can help me escape this situation.

Honen and Shinran, who studied at Mount Hiei, found an aid in Amitabha's original vow, however, Nichiren later noted that Amitabha and that original vow were manifestations of Shakyamuni from the remote past, and so it is a valid teaching only from the moment where you have the seed of enlightenment, that is, from the perspective of "harvest". Being reborn in Sukhavati is the effect of a cause, not the cause of an effect. For this reason, Nichiren has said several times that reciting the name of Buddha leads to hell, as it has no effect on this era in which we live.
-------------------------------------------------- -
Note: it is important to say that Nichiren understands and criticizes nembustu from a meditative practice perspective, but Shinran and Honen's teaching understand nembutsu only as an expression of Shinjin. What saves the person is "shinjin OF the original vow" [it is not the faith "IN", but the faith "OF"], that is, the primordial and uninitiated mind that caused the original vow, that is, the Eternal Buddha (who is understood in this school as Amitabha).
-------------------------------------------------- -

Nichiren's teaching only makes sense from the perspective of the three ages of Dharma. If you put this teaching in perspective, there is only one possible conclusion to be made: we, beings from this last era, need another power to help us. This power cannot be a provisional manifestation or a Buddha of the effect, but the original entity and the Buddha of the cause.

Therefore, if you put "Shakyamuni of the remote past", of the Lotus Sutra, before the "Other Power of the Original Vow", of the Sutra of Immeasurable Life, the only one that has the obvious qualities to direct beings towards enlightenment in the Age of the End of Dharma is the "Other Power" and not Shakyamuni. So, if Nichiren had only taught devotion to Shakyamuni and the Lotus Sutra, the only reasonable conclusion we could have is that Nichiren was wrong (which is why Pure Land is the most widespread teaching in Japan).

The reason for this is simple: since we are in Mappo, we are not in a position to achieve enlightenment through cultivation, as we do not have the seeds of enlightenment, this would be equivalent to trying to make Gee butter from wind. For that, we need a Buddha who with his sublime qualities can plant this seed in our eighth consciousness, so that only then can we cultivate it and attain enlightenment, this is the equivalent of someone filling our empty pot with milk, because only so we can make gee butter.

Thus, all of Nichiren's teaching only makes sense if there is an Original Buddha who is different from Shakyamuni (for reasons already explained). However, as Nichiren rejected nembutsu, rejected Dainichinyorai, and other Buddhas. So, who is this Buddha who fulfills this function?
In short, all of Nichiren's teaching only makes sense if the Buddha is him! And it is for this reason that the contested Goshos become valid, as they are the ones that make this understanding easier.

If anyone disputes these likes, okay, it means that we must abandon Nichiren's teachings and awaken faith in Amitabha's Original Vow. But if someone accepts these likes and understands Nichiren's role as the Original Buddha, then Nichirenism starts to make sense and becomes a coherent solution to the problem of enlightenment in this Mappo era!

Respectfully _/\_
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

If you wish to believe Nichiren is The Eternal Buddha one has to devise a whole new set of rules.
A Buddha by definition is a common mortal who attains enlightenment and eventually Buddhahood.

There have been a few Buddhas such as Lord Sakyamuni Buddha . There are predictions such a the coming of Buddha Maitreya Buddha .
and others after that....these are by human standards of time ...incredible long periods.

Now what do you think from that would be the Original Buddha. Cause and effect, a teaching in the Lotus Sutra or something else?

Dharmakaya is neither the Nirmanakaya body nor the Sambhogakaya body.

The Nirmanakaya body can only be found in The Buddha's pure land. It never leaves the Pure Land.

the Sambogayakay body is the human form historical Buddhas used to reveal the teachings.

correct me if i am wrong.

also Nichiren only referred to Himself as Bodhisattva Jogyo .

The Four Leaders of The Bodhisattvas of the Earth as taught in the Lotus sutra were taught and trained by Lord Sakyamuni Buddha.

Nichiren carried a statue of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha in His sleeve till death .

There are no known authenticated texts by Nichiren Shonin that state He is anything other than what He claimed.

Now if you wish to perpetuate Nichiren Shoshu doctrine, it's your prerogative.

But it will never hold up historically except in Nichiren shoshu with their documents thay alone hold as gospel.

that being said,

continue to chant the Odaimoku Namu Myoho Renge Kyo at least three times a day and then as much Nam Myoho Renge Kyo as you can, along with the recital of the three verses of gongyo as you feel necessary or inclined to do.

seek the truth always, and as The Buddha said " Always question authority " "Follow the Dharma not the teacher"
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 6:17 pm

This thread is as much a question as a possibility of me realizing something.

reminder
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by _johnarundel_ »

ronnymarsh wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:19 pm Mr. Minobu, from the perspective of Hokke Buddhism (Tendai and Nichiren), Honbutsu is not just pure Dharmakaya.

Dharmakayas are manifestations of a Buddha. Thus, all Buddhas who are worshiped by Buddhisms, including Mahavairocana and Vairocana, who are Buddhas of the Dharma Body, are also manifestations of some Buddha. This Buddha is Shakyamuni from the remote past, according to the perspective of the Lotus Sutra.

Honbutsu, however, is the one that has both cause and effect, which is why it is called "Hon" (original), that point from which everything arises. All Buddhas in all bodies exist only as an effect, so each of the three bodies of Buddhas are only parts of the original Buddha. Honbutsu is the one who is endowed with the three bodies. In Japanese this is said to be "isshin soku sanjin sanjin soku isshin" (one body as three bodies, three bodies as one body).

Thus, the Eternal (Original) Buddha is called "Saddharma Pundarika", or "Sublime Lotus Flower Dharma". It is called "pundarika" (lotus flower) because it contains both the cause and the effect of Buddhahood. The cause is what we call "tathagatagharba" or "innate Buddha nature", and the effect is the three bodies of Buddha. Its name is also "Sublime Dharma" because it is a law (something naturally immutable) whose nature is difficult to understand.

It is in this sense also that the name "Nichiren" has a profound meaning, which helps to understand this perspective of Nichiren as Honbutsu in person.

you see, if we translate the two terms that form the name of the school's founder into Sanskrit, he would be called "Vairocana-pundarika". In Japanese this is not so obvious, but when we move on to Sanskrit, with which we are more accustomed to in the Buddhist nomenclature, this notion becomes quite evident. That is, Nichiren means "vairocana" [Buddha] endowed with pundarika [cause and effect].

.................................................. ....
This is something that is extremely common and commonplace in Buddhism, and is not an indiosyncratic feature of this part of the Fuji school.

If you look for images of Shandao (like the one illustrated on the wikipedia page about him), the most important patriarch of Pure Land's thought, you'll see that he is portrayed from the waist up in Chinese monk's clothes, and from the waist down with golden clothes, like the Buddha. This is a way of identifying Shandao as a manifestation of Amida Nyorai, who at Pure Land School is understood to be the Original Buddha.
-------------------------------------------------- ----

The whole issue of Nichiren as the Original Buddha is due to a very specific factor: the understanding of the three ages of Dharma.

As, according to this understanding, we are living in the End of Dharma Era, this means that we, who were born at that time, are NOT earth bodhisattvas, are NOT endowed with the innate Buddha nature (tathagatagarbha), and do NOT have relationship with Shakyamuni.

Being born as a human being is extremely rare, it is tremendous good luck. However, the beings born in the End of Dharma are those who practiced heavy slander in previous lives, the icchantikas. When the heavy negative karma was exhausted we left the lower realms and managed to be born as humans, however, as a consequence we were unable to be born in a period where the relationship with the Buddha is in effect.


If anyone disputes these likes, okay, it means that we must abandon Nichiren's teachings and awaken faith in Amitabha's Original Vow. But if someone accepts these likes and understands Nichiren's role as the Original Buddha, then Nichirenism starts to make sense and becomes a coherent solution to the problem of enlightenment in this Mappo era!

Respectfully _/\_
"The five characters of Myoho-Renge-Kyo are the core of the Lotus Sutra and the origin of all Buddhas throughout the entire world. Upon seeing the signs that these five characters now must be propagated, I, Nichiren, have set the precedent, today, at the beginning of the Latter Day of the Law."

- Nichiren Daishonin, “Shuju onfurumai-gosho” 種種御振舞御書


https://www.nichirenshoshu.or.jp/eng/daishonin.html
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Minobu
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Did Nichiren Shonin ever state that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha was The Entity MyoHo RenGe Kyo ?

He did state that "IT" is what all buddhas attain Buddhahood from.

So at first there was the Dharmakaya from which sentients became enlightened to and then attained Buddhahood.

correct me if i am wrong.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:36 pm
So at first there was the Dharmakaya from which sentients became enlightened to and then attained Buddhahood.
First there is reality, suchness, dharmatā, śunyatā, etc. The realization of that reality is called "dharmakāya." When dharmakāya is realized, then the rūpakāyas can manifest. Dharmakāya isn't a thing, it is a realization.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:47 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:36 pm
So at first there was the Dharmakaya from which sentients became enlightened to and then attained Buddhahood.
First there is reality, suchness, dharmatā, śunyatā, etc. The realization of that reality is called "dharmakāya." When dharmakāya is realized, then the rūpakāyas can manifest. Dharmakāya isn't a thing, it is a realization.
I'm talking about the Dharmakaya Body that permeates all of Samsara.


ok... so you did say at one time somewhere when we were discussing this whole eternal buddha thing

that if we are going say Eternal Buddha then it would be Dharmakaya...
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:47 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:36 pm
So at first there was the Dharmakaya from which sentients became enlightened to and then attained Buddhahood.
First there is reality, suchness, dharmatā, śunyatā, etc. The realization of that reality is called "dharmakāya." When dharmakāya is realized, then the rūpakāyas can manifest. Dharmakāya isn't a thing, it is a realization.
I'm talking about the Dharmakaya Body that permeates all of Samsara.


ok... so you did say at one time somewhere when we were discussing this whole eternal buddha thing

that if we are going say Eternal Buddha then it would be Dharmakaya...
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.p ... ya#p579170
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Malcolm »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:47 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:36 pm
So at first there was the Dharmakaya from which sentients became enlightened to and then attained Buddhahood.
First there is reality, suchness, dharmatā, śunyatā, etc. The realization of that reality is called "dharmakāya." When dharmakāya is realized, then the rūpakāyas can manifest. Dharmakāya isn't a thing, it is a realization.
I'm talking about the Dharmakaya Body that permeates all of Samsara.
Right, that refers to śunyatā, emptiness. Since everything is empty, we can say that the reality buddhas realize pervades everything.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

Malcolm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:52 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:33 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:47 pm

First there is reality, suchness, dharmatā, śunyatā, etc. The realization of that reality is called "dharmakāya." When dharmakāya is realized, then the rūpakāyas can manifest. Dharmakāya isn't a thing, it is a realization.
I'm talking about the Dharmakaya Body that permeates all of Samsara.
Right, that refers to śunyatā, emptiness. Since everything is empty, we can say that the reality buddhas realize pervades everything.
So i guess Dzogchen has it's own ideas on what the Dharmakaya body is. ??????

i understand sunyata believe it or not.

I'm not talking about the nature of Dharmakaya
I'm saying that before there was a Buddha who earned the Three Bodies there was only a Dhamrakaya Body, an actual Entity people refered to as the Primordial Buddha.

which according to Buddhists is still not been nailed down .

But If there is such a thing then it would be an Primordial Dharmakaya Entity .
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

If I understand correctly the previous teachings hinged off the Yuga cycle (which I assume primordial buddha represents continuity through out)

Nichiren implies a different view in regards to the Yuga cycle as if the implications were not the same.

I don't see a conflict in the differential although others might.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:52 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:33 pm

I'm talking about the Dharmakaya Body that permeates all of Samsara.
Right, that refers to śunyatā, emptiness. Since everything is empty, we can say that the reality buddhas realize pervades everything.
So i guess Dzogchen has it's own ideas on what the Dharmakaya body is. ??????
That view isn't unique to Dzogchen as far as I know.
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

jake wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:24 pm
Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:07 pm
Malcolm wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 8:52 pm

Right, that refers to śunyatā, emptiness. Since everything is empty, we can say that the reality buddhas realize pervades everything.
So i guess Dzogchen has it's own ideas on what the Dharmakaya body is. ??????
That view isn't unique to Dzogchen as far as I know.
So like he gives me a lecture on the nature of it.

The discussion is about the concept of the Primordial Buddha.

which i gave a link to where he said yes to my query about the Primordial buddha could only be Dharmakaya Body .
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:19 pm If I understand correctly the previous teachings hinged off the Yuga cycle (which I assume primordial buddha represents continuity through out)

Nichiren implies a different view in regards to the Yuga cycle as if the implications were not the same.

I don't see a conflict in the differential although others might.
well i see a total conflict in your use of the english language.... :rolling:

dude where do you come up with this way of answering stuff.
no one gets what you say ..
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by Minobu »

i can't handle this place at times...
maybe it's the medium , it's me i guess..but

argh !!! @ madness
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Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 11:24 pm
tkp67 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:19 pm If I understand correctly the previous teachings hinged off the Yuga cycle (which I assume primordial buddha represents continuity through out)

Nichiren implies a different view in regards to the Yuga cycle as if the implications were not the same.

I don't see a conflict in the differential although others might.
well i see a total conflict in your use of the english language.... :rolling:

dude where do you come up with this way of answering stuff.
no one gets what you say ..
Well apparently I do or I wouldn't know to say it. :smile:

Reading the sutra with the body means it is subjective. I try not to speak directly to how it appears because it isn't going to make sense directly (to others). Instead I make points that speak around the teachings so people will fill it in with their own understanding.

This is because I have no desire to sell people on my perception as their own. I do think that all perceptions have relative validity which need not be discounted in contrast. Instead they all add to the totality of human understanding around a given subject.

I understand that this is seen as fatiguing to some readers and try my best to be direct in most cases. Sometimes it seems appropriate.

For me it is almost like trying to describe what shape the wind is. It is as if one needs to describe how the wind effects things in hopes the person hearing it will be able to notice similar cause and effect to realize the same thing. Maybe this is simply how my brain processes information so it how I attempt to share it. :shrug:

I find as I notice my mind does this and that it is easier to keep it from doing this or that. Sometimes I don't see it on my own but only in the reaction from others.

:anjali:
ronnymarsh
Posts: 170
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:52 am

Re: How Nichiren Shonin could be the Eternal Buddha

Post by ronnymarsh »

Minobu wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:36 pm Did Nichiren Shonin ever state that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha was The Entity MyoHo RenGe Kyo ?

He did state that "IT" is what all buddhas attain Buddhahood from.

So at first there was the Dharmakaya from which sentients became enlightened to and then attained Buddhahood.

correct me if i am wrong.
In a 1270 letter to Toki Jonin [Mama Shakabutsu Gokuyou Chikujou], Nichiren writes the following:

"Regarding the statue of Buddha Shakyamuni that you produced, it actually revealed the Buddha of Ichinen Sanzen never seen since the time without beginning."

In these and similar texts, Nichiren focuses on Shakyamuni's devotion flanked by the four bodhisattvas of the land to represent the Original Buddha.
However, these generally portray a specific period in Nichiren's life and teaching, usually from before he experienced the tatsu no kuchi chase, before he revealed Gohonzon, before writing Kaimoku-sho and Kanjin in Honzon-sho.

There is another text, however more extensive, which was written for Shinjo Kingo with a similar theme [Shinjo Kingo Shakabutsu Kuyou ji]. In that writing he teaches more than in the previous letter to Toki, in an attempt to demonstrate that the focus of devotion should be MyohoRengueKyo instead of the image of Shakyamuni flanked by the four bodhisattvas, without however scolding him for having made an image of Buddha.

The first teaching Nichiren gives is a quote from the Universal Merit Sutra: "This Great Vehicle Sutra is the repository of treasures for Buddhas, the eye of Buddhas from the ten directions and three existences (...) This Correct and Equal Sutra is the eye of the Buddha, it is through this Sutra that Buddhas are able to acquire the five types of vision ".

This quote serves to show that the Buddha's wisdom and sublime characteristics are effects of a Sutra, not the Sutra effect of a Buddha.

Then he talks about the three bodies (still quoting the Universal Merit Sutra):

"The three types of body of a Buddha originate from this correct and equal Sutra, the great seal of the Dharma that guarantees entry into the sea of ​​Nirvana. It is from this sea that the three types of pure bodies of a Buddha originate (... ) "

And then offers an explanation:

"The three bodies are: first the Dharmakaya, second the Samboghakaya and third, the Nirmanakaya. All Buddhas invariably have the three bodies of Tathagata. Using the moon as an example, we can say that it compares itself to the Dharmakaya, the the light it emits is compared to the sambogakaya and the reflection of that light emitted by it is like nirmanakaya. Just as a single moon has these three distinct aspects, a single buddha has the virtues of these three bodies ".

And he also quotes Chi-i who deals with the same subject:

"The Buddha consistently has the three bodies throughout the three lifetimes."

These are examples of quotes by Nichiren about the typical Tendai understanding of the three bodies of Buddha and the concept of Honbutsu. There are others in the voluminous collection of writings, but these already illustrate the scene.

This is different from the common Buddhist conception that does not consider the Lotus Sutra and is a unique feature of Hokke's understanding (Tendai and Nichiren). A true Buddha needs to be endowed with three bodies, just as, in Nichiren's example, the Moon only exists when there is its mass, light and reflection. If there is only mass, it is not a moon, it is any "mass", likewise, only the Dharmakaya is not the different Buddha.

Shakyamuni's Dharmakaya is Vairocana [or Mahavairocana] that appears in many Mahayana Sutras, such as the Bhrama Network Sutra, Flower Garland Sutra, Mahavaicorana Sutra, among others. However, even though this is the Buddha's "self" body, he is not yet the true Buddha.
Only when there is Dharmakaya, Nirmanakaya and Samboghakaya in a single entity does a true Buddha exist.

The True Shakyamuni is not the Dharmakaya, nor the various samboghakaya, nor the nirmanakaya, but the Shakyamuni who attained enlightenment in the distant past. This is the Buddha who appears in the Honmon portion of the Lotus Sutra when, in the same scene, there is the conjunction between the Shakyamuni nirmanakaya, the Taho-nyorai samboghakaya and the Stupa adorned with seven species of treasures that represents his true Dharmakaya, as well as the various other Buddhas who had previously been manifested and who were present at the assembly.

However, even though this is Shakyamuni's true identity, he is still not the original Buddha.

At Tendai and Shingon school, the original Buddha's true identity is called Dainichi Nyorai (Mahavairocana Tathagata), which is the name of the Shakyamuni Dharma body, and this ends up confusing this particular understanding with other similar notions like that of Adibuddha of Tibetan Buddhism. .

The difference lies in the fact that Hokke and Shingon Buddhism has two perspectives: RI and JI.

Ri means "theoretical" and Ji means "real". Dainichi Nyorai (or Shakyamuni from the remote past) represents the Eternal Buddha from the "RI" perspective. the two schools, tendai and shingon, come together in structuring doctrine and practice in terms of "achieving [real] JI through [theoretical] RI, while Nichiren separates himself from these two perspectives by proposing that one should" reach JI directly through JI, discarding RI "[opening the provisional and revealing the real].

In the sphere of "RI" we have many Buddhas, Bodhisattvas, celestial beings, and all these figures that we could call them "archetypal". In the sphere of "JI" we have the real world, day by day, the world as it appears to us, etc. In the sphere of "RI" we focus on "Buddhas endowed with the 32 sublime marks", on "dharmakaya", and everything else, but in the sphere of "JI" we only have ordinary mortals, like me, like you, like Nichiren.
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