lockdowns on Nichiren site .

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Minobu
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lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Minobu »

the page is just jam packed with lockdowns...

i realize that certain people are doing more than just snub their toes on the TOS ...and yes something needs to be done when it comes to sectarian violence ...by that i mean ...once the actual theories are no longer discussed but ridiculed ...it's time to either delete the post or give the offender a time out.

but locking down good discussions and making the front page of the Nichiren Section look like a war zone ...

I believe all Nichiren Schools are product of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha The Eternal Buddha...

All of them are fraught with human error....The road to hell is paved with the best of intentions...

for the Love of The Eternal Buddha let the one section where The Eternal Buddha can actually inspire be free from trolls and fools who ignore the TOS totally..delete delete delete instead of the lock down...

unless there is of course some agenda by the owners and staff and they just don't dig Nichiren folk..

so they allow the few fools to ruin everything...and follow the rules to discourage a vibrant section .
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by narhwal90 »

The only tools a moderator has is to lock a topic, delete a post or request banning a member.

I agree that a forum full of locked posts doesn't look very nice, but what is worse is page after page of nasty, divisive sniping. The Nichiren forum is notorious for this, now is the time to stop.

By all means, in the respective subforums, share what your branch of Nichiren is all about- post pics if you like, the awesome experiences you've had, how it helps you and so on.

However, judgements about other schools, divisive commentary, urging people to abandon one and take up another and so on are not allowed- all as per the Terms Of Service threads. If nothing else, just be courteous and I won't need to lock topics or delete posts.
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Minobu
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Minobu »

narhwal90 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:59 pm The only tools a moderator has is to lock a topic, delete a post or request banning a member.

I agree that a forum full of locked posts doesn't look very nice, but what is worse is page after page of nasty, divisive sniping. The Nichiren forum is notorious for this, now is the time to stop.

By all means, in the respective subforums, share what your branch of Nichiren is all about- post pics if you like, the awesome experiences you've had, how it helps you and so on.

However, judgements about other schools, divisive commentary, urging people to abandon one and take up another and so on are not allowed- all as per the Terms Of Service threads. If nothing else, just be courteous and I won't need to lock topics or delete posts.
I hear ya...but it's the nature of the beast.both our sect and others all think deep down theirs is the way...

For me to come to the conclusion that all Nichiren Sects are meant to be is like putting needles in some Nichiren practitioners eyes.

i think deletion and the ban hammer is the way to go...lockdowns corrupt the odd thread that has anything going for it in this section...few and far between as of late...


hell i left hear due to the infighting ....


the guy is questioning his practice ...posts a plea for help and someone just says join us ...it's good to see in type if you are thinker...it shows how demeaning a person can be to this practice...

as for mixing practices...it's all Buddhism...heck Nichiren is filled to the top with all that was Japanese Buddhism at the time...he knew it all...

All that aside, you are doing a fine job and trying to bring civility to this section...i hear ya...true dat !...


some dirty laundry needs to be aired at times...allowing me to post this ...is sort of against the TOS ...I'm attacking modding basically...so kudos for the wisdom in allowing it to post.

i like to feel you want the best...i get paranoid...because of the medium...we are not in a room over coffee...
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by narhwal90 »

Minobu wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:52 pm
I hear ya...but it's the nature of the beast.both our sect and others all think deep down theirs is the way...

For me to come to the conclusion that all Nichiren Sects are meant to be is like putting needles in some Nichiren practitioners eyes.

i think deletion and the ban hammer is the way to go...lockdowns corrupt the odd thread that has anything going for it in this section...few and far between as of late...


hell i left hear due to the infighting ....


the guy is questioning his practice ...posts a plea for help and someone just says join us ...it's good to see in type if you are thinker...it shows how demeaning a person can be to this practice...

as for mixing practices...it's all Buddhism...heck Nichiren is filled to the top with all that was Japanese Buddhism at the time...he knew it all...

All that aside, you are doing a fine job and trying to bring civility to this section...i hear ya...true dat !...


some dirty laundry needs to be aired at times...allowing me to post this ...is sort of against the TOS ...I'm attacking modding basically...so kudos for the wisdom in allowing it to post.

i like to feel you want the best...i get paranoid...because of the medium...we are not in a room over coffee...
"someone just says join us" is reasonably OK, that is an invitation to practice which is good, and why I left the post. Unfortunately that tone was not maintained, so I locked the topic. There were other posts I moderated out of that thread which were not so civil. For posterity, this is the topic in question.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=36298


As a matter of my own moderation methods, the 1st tool is to lock a thread when discussion becomes inappropriate/offensive/divisive. The second is to disapprove a post, so it does not appear. The last is to edit a post, which I will only do for very particular reasons (such as the author of the post requesting it). If I lock a topic or edit a post I will leave a note in green to that effect. Bans are generally discussed when a poster cannot control their conduct after a number of warnings or become abusive. Bans can last a short time or be permanent.

Please understand that moderating on a site like this is a running game, I have to make quick judgement calls all the time and I will make errors and some of my moderation choices will be unfair to some degree- I do apologize for that.

Please note, it is not usual practice to discuss moderation, I will not enter into minutae or debate on it. However, as many threads are affected by me requiring a degree of civility and adherence to the posted Terms Of Service, I think it is fair to explain why so many are locked, and a fair number never appear.

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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by KeithA »

It happens a lot in the Zen forum, as well. Moderation is hard, and very time consuming. Vajrayana is the default here. It is what it is. Thread locking is the easiest, so it's the most prevalent. I agree completely that is would be better to remove posts and/or ban specific individuals, but that takes more energy.

_/|\_
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by tkp67 »

as for mixing practices...it's all Buddhism...heck Nichiren is filled to the top with all that was Japanese Buddhism at the time...he knew it all...
Sure but it really is a nuanced topic because yes he seeks to reconcile any potential path (immeasurable) for an individual to the lotus itself.

Based on the writings themselves he suggests a framework that consists of developing a relationship with the Lotus before examining other sutras let alone other traditions. While Nichiren encouraged examination of all teachings, buddhist and non buddhist for wisdom he did make it clear that this is according to development, cause, conditions and of course capacity.

The initial focus is meant to be one that develop an unbreakable bond with the teachings. FWIU the apprehension is that people won't an unbreakable connection if they aren't focused long enough.

When he goes through his example of Shakyamuni being a parent, teacher and sovreign he is saying that while one might have a different parent, teacher and even sovreign by name their functions are the same. Thus Shakyamuni's enlightenment represents the "empty" aspect of those designations.

So even under the same tradition the answer does end up being relative dependent on the practitioner. I believe Nichiren encouraged a united front in certain regards even if there were individual differences "underneath". I do believe how Nichiren buddhism appears to others was important.

Daimoku on the outside, our individual lives manifest according to cause, condition and capacity on the inside.

:anjali:
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by tkp67 »

I think it is a great opportunity personally. When properly engaging the lotus one potential consequence is intense internal reaction. Regardless of who the effected party might be, propagating these teachings is not easy. However ideally there should be no emotional distortion.

For me this really makes me look to all phenomenon (and minds) as teachers. It reinforces a need not to disparage. I evokes a number of causes to be considered in the propagation of these teachings.

If it wasn't difficult, discordant and counter intuitive then it would be normalizing the efforts required to practice this tradition in a way that pays one's debt back to the buddhas of the ten times and three directions.
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

KeithA wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:47 am It happens a lot in the Zen forum, as well. Moderation is hard, and very time consuming. Vajrayana is the default here. It is what it is. Thread locking is the easiest, so it's the most prevalent. I agree completely that is would be better to remove posts and/or ban specific individuals, but that takes more energy.

_/|\_
Keith
When threads cease to be productive and people are just using them to be divisive, or to underhandedly insult one another, or the conversation is simply becoming circular, locking them is a perfectly reasonable response.

Making judgement calls about which threads are circling the drain is part of moderation, an important part in fact.

Secondly, here people are complaining about not taking the time to do deal with individual users, but we do that, and people complain about that too.

So, from our end there is no pleasing everyone, and every upset user has their own personal narrative of oppression by the DW mods, not only do the narratives often lack consistency, sometimes the complaints are actually the opposite of other complaints we hear..frequently in fact.

FYI we always let a mod that follows a particular tradition moderate that forum, whenever it is possible.

"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Queequeg »

If someone disagrees with a locked thread, ask a mod to reopen. All mod decisions are appealable... Until they're not. At some point the mod decision does become final. It's all a matter of reasonability.

Keep things civil and there should be no problems.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Shotenzenjin »

I was a mod on another forum. A Deaf forum. It's a thankless job

I find the moderation here to be fine and fair. Keep up the good work narwhal.
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Könchok Chödrak »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:16 pm It’s a thankless job
Sometimes the seemingly thankless jobs are the most diligent ones that generate the highest merit. I thank the mods, and they should never feel like they are on the wrong side of things, even if things get hard, because they are here to keep us safe, emotionally healthy, taught, knowledgeable, understood, and Buddhist. We have such mods, and it’s a great thing. Nam Myoho Renge Kyo.
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by tkp67 »

The lack of ability to maintain decorum is a compound phenomenon.

More importantly there lies a really interesting rationale that exists here. The internet isn't "real" yet the efforts to moderate Buddhism (not just here) is arduous.

The buddha did not find human discord arduous, he found it to be a wonderful cause for the liberation of all sentient beings. His enlightenment allowed him to engage the minds of others without being effected while also being completely attuned to their psyche.

I don't know how open people are to questioning their own reaction to internet dialog.

I understand the dynamic on a personal level. I am sensitive to it. However I do not accept my own conditioning around such things because it is not reasonable nor does it offer a benefit. Would the same words in a different format cause the same reaction? I have noticed that by questioning my reaction in the interpretation of such things changes the influence they have on my thinking.

This is why I mention compound phenomenon. It is almost as if much of the reactive behavior in the Nichiren forums is a conditioned reaction. It had become the nature of such dialog. It was well over 10 years ago the very dynamic that turned me off to integrating with Buddhist practitioners.

The whole paying back my debt to the buddha's shtick is to correct this dynamic.

:anjali:
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Minobu »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:57 pm The lack of ability to maintain decorum is a compound phenomenon.

More importantly there lies a really interesting rationale that exists here. The internet isn't "real" yet the efforts to moderate Buddhism (not just here) is arduous.


:anjali:
stopped reading your post here..

why...no one is remotely attempting to moderate Buddhism...

it's people that constantly need to be reminded they are ignoring the TOS..

funny thing those people don't have a clue as to what they are doing...even though their posts are the ones that immidiatly following them gets the thread lock down..

and erm uh....the internet is very real...if you view it as not ...you are a troll...
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Queequeg »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:57 pm The lack of ability to maintain decorum is a compound phenomenon.

More importantly there lies a really interesting rationale that exists here. The internet isn't "real" yet the efforts to moderate Buddhism (not just here) is arduous.

The buddha did not find human discord arduous, he found it to be a wonderful cause for the liberation of all sentient beings. His enlightenment allowed him to engage the minds of others without being effected while also being completely attuned to their psyche.

I don't know how open people are to questioning their own reaction to internet dialog.

I understand the dynamic on a personal level. I am sensitive to it. However I do not accept my own conditioning around such things because it is not reasonable nor does it offer a benefit. Would the same words in a different format cause the same reaction? I have noticed that by questioning my reaction in the interpretation of such things changes the influence they have on my thinking.

This is why I mention compound phenomenon. It is almost as if much of the reactive behavior in the Nichiren forums is a conditioned reaction. It had become the nature of such dialog. It was well over 10 years ago the very dynamic that turned me off to integrating with Buddhist practitioners.

The whole paying back my debt to the buddha's shtick is to correct this dynamic.

:anjali:
Don't know if it's still going.
alt.buddhism.religion.nichiren
Unmoderated depths of Nichiren hell.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Upaya Chapter

純一実相。実相外。更無別法。法性寂然名止。寂而常渉照名観。
There is only reality; there is nothing separate from reality. The naturally tranquil nature of dharmas is shamatha. The abiding luminosity of tranquility is vipashyana.

-From Guanding's Introduction to Zhiyi's Great Shamatha and Vipashyana
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:57 pm The lack of ability to maintain decorum is a compound phenomenon.

More importantly there lies a really interesting rationale that exists here. The internet isn't "real" yet the efforts to moderate Buddhism (not just here) is arduous.

The buddha did not find human discord arduous, he found it to be a wonderful cause for the liberation of all sentient beings. His enlightenment allowed him to engage the minds of others without being effected while also being completely attuned to their psyche.

I don't know how open people are to questioning their own reaction to internet dialog.

I understand the dynamic on a personal level. I am sensitive to it. However I do not accept my own conditioning around such things because it is not reasonable nor does it offer a benefit. Would the same words in a different format cause the same reaction? I have noticed that by questioning my reaction in the interpretation of such things changes the influence they have on my thinking.

This is why I mention compound phenomenon. It is almost as if much of the reactive behavior in the Nichiren forums is a conditioned reaction. It had become the nature of such dialog. It was well over 10 years ago the very dynamic that turned me off to integrating with Buddhist practitioners.

The whole paying back my debt to the buddha's shtick is to correct this dynamic.

:anjali:
IMO the Buddha would likely have told y'all to quit yer bitchin' in no uncertain terms, in the most skillful and compassionate way possible of course.

But we are not the Buddha anyway. Our job is to help facilitate a functioning Buddhist forum, stuff that is disruptive enough, crazy enough, non-sequitur enough rightfully falls by the wayside.

Go look at other Buddhist forums with a more laissez-faire attitude and see how that attitude affects the quality of discussions there. Maybe some people like that kind of format better, if so, then it begs the question why they keep coming back here.

As to specific issues with moderation (which is the best way to address moderation btw, for reasons mentioned earlier vague or general complaints are not actionable), as QQ said the best way is to directly contact a mod and make your case in an adult manner.

Conversations like this we have become more lenient about over the years, but some fora wouldn't even allow this kind of meta-discussion of moderation, because of the dynamic it often creates.

So, if you feel you have a legitimate issue with a piece of moderation (and not just a desire to complain about us, accuse us of malicious intent, armchair psychoanalyze us, etc.), the best solution is direct contact with mods via PM, and making your cases to why this or that should be allowed.

I regularly re-open threads on people's request when they make a compelling case.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low
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Minobu
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:36 pm

Don't know if it's still going.
alt.buddhism.religion.nichiren
Unmoderated depths of Nichiren hell.
OMG!!!!!
the place is sectarian hell...i posted...anyone can post anything lol...

so i posted this and i'm sure they will all understand and stop fighting now.
Hi everyone . Nice to see this is alive. I would like to point out that I don't think anyone here realizes the beauty of all the different Nichiren Schools and how they all are under the robe of The Eternal Buddha Sakyamuni Buddha.

People think just because some believe this is correct and this isn't, case in point the concept of Who Saint Nichiren is, either The Eternal Buddha or as He taught us Bodhisattva Jogyo.

Doesn't matter. It's Mappo and anyone just chanting once in what ever setting is beautiful and a true marvel.

This infighting is strictly from a lack of faith and understanding what exactly is taking place. So do everyone a favour and join hands ,socially distanced of course,lol, and realize we are all in this together trying to help one another.

Ultimately the people who set sectarian violence in our schools on fire are just working for Sansho Shima...they are destroying their seeds planted by Lord Guru Sakyamuni The Eternal Buddha.

The highest Teaching of course will attract men and women who want to cause dissention in the ranks.

Best thing to do is totally stop all ridicule of any Nichiren School. You might think you are in the right , but actually you are only aiding and abetting hell.


Just think in terms of what other Buddhist think of us . they think we are all nutso , not because of the teaching but because of how we treat each other in various Nichiren Schools.


take care
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:57 pm The lack of ability to maintain decorum is a compound phenomenon.
So is the ability to maintain decorum.
"Nonduality is merely a name;
that name does not exist."
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by tkp67 »

Minobu wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:09 pm stopped reading your post here..

why...no one is remotely attempting to moderate Buddhism...

it's people that constantly need to be reminded they are ignoring the TOS..

funny thing those people don't have a clue as to what they are doing...even though their posts are the ones that immidiatly following them gets the thread lock down..

and erm uh....the internet is very real...if you view it as not ...you are a troll...
The difficulty of moderation was mentioned in this tread so there is topical conceptual continuity.

It isn't a critique or an attack. It is simply that people take the workings of their mind to heart and they have to moderate such things. I assume they possess the best intentions which makes the job harder if one is trying to be empathic while moderating judicially.

The obstacles in this tradition are for example, loved ones. They aren't obstacles because love is bad. Yet they are obstacles none the less.

:anjali:
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by tkp67 »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:36 pm
Don't know if it's still going.
alt.buddhism.religion.nichiren
Unmoderated depths of Nichiren hell.
It was one of the sources of discord that made me a sole practitioner.

I talk openly about cause and effect because I notice it. It isn't about finding a particular source for blame. I know I often bark up the tree here but I do so because I think I would have a like perspective if I had the same experiences. I also believe the contributors here genuinely care. As a dynamic it is larger than DW. However I do feel that this is a high profile site (as far as buddhism goes) and I don't doubt the capacities of those involved.

It seems reasonable to question the influence of internet trends on expression as well as the potential conditioning they influence.

Am I bit tone deaf on the sound of this? I may be. Not purposely but I have to be open to the fact that I may be.

:anjali:
Last edited by tkp67 on Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: lockdowns on Nichiren site .

Post by tkp67 »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 6:54 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:57 pm The lack of ability to maintain decorum is a compound phenomenon.

More importantly there lies a really interesting rationale that exists here. The internet isn't "real" yet the efforts to moderate Buddhism (not just here) is arduous.

The buddha did not find human discord arduous, he found it to be a wonderful cause for the liberation of all sentient beings. His enlightenment allowed him to engage the minds of others without being effected while also being completely attuned to their psyche.

I don't know how open people are to questioning their own reaction to internet dialog.

I understand the dynamic on a personal level. I am sensitive to it. However I do not accept my own conditioning around such things because it is not reasonable nor does it offer a benefit. Would the same words in a different format cause the same reaction? I have noticed that by questioning my reaction in the interpretation of such things changes the influence they have on my thinking.

This is why I mention compound phenomenon. It is almost as if much of the reactive behavior in the Nichiren forums is a conditioned reaction. It had become the nature of such dialog. It was well over 10 years ago the very dynamic that turned me off to integrating with Buddhist practitioners.

The whole paying back my debt to the buddha's shtick is to correct this dynamic.

:anjali:
IMO the Buddha would likely have told y'all to quit yer bitchin' in no uncertain terms, in the most skillful and compassionate way possible of course.

But we are not the Buddha anyway. Our job is to help facilitate a functioning Buddhist forum, stuff that is disruptive enough, crazy enough, non-sequitur enough rightfully falls by the wayside.

Go look at other Buddhist forums with a more laissez-faire attitude and see how that attitude affects the quality of discussions there. Maybe some people like that kind of format better, if so, then it begs the question why they keep coming back here.

As to specific issues with moderation (which is the best way to address moderation btw, for reasons mentioned earlier vague or general complaints are not actionable), as QQ said the best way is to directly contact a mod and make your case in an adult manner.

Conversations like this we have become more lenient about over the years, but some fora wouldn't even allow this kind of meta-discussion of moderation, because of the dynamic it often creates.

So, if you feel you have a legitimate issue with a piece of moderation (and not just a desire to complain about us, accuse us of malicious intent, armchair psychoanalyze us, etc.), the best solution is direct contact with mods via PM, and making your cases to why this or that should be allowed.

I regularly re-open threads on people's request when they make a compelling case.
I am bitching? I think the buddha would know specifically what was on my heart Johnny.

This wasn't about anything specific but rather the relative intolerance to the Nichiren tradition. I am not saying the tradition hasn't been problematic in communicating. Not at all. This wasn't a personal critique against DW moderation. I don't understand why you would interpret it as such.

The comment of why come here is interesting though. It is an open forum supporting these traditions, that is why people come here. Not many stay outside of the specific traditions that most members actively participate in.

It is that sneaky subtle bias I was talking about. I care about this tradition because of my connection with the buddha that was developed due to it.

My comments are honest, sincere and my right to practice is not diminished because of the tradition I practice or any of my life conditions including my ability to communicate.

There is no ego, human or otherwise that can convince me otherwise. Except of course my own.

:anjali:
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