is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

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Minobu
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:59 am
Minobu wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:22 am it's buddhism 101 QQ ..
No. If it was, you'd have no problem finding support for it. You wouldn't have to plead that you're a bad googler.
i meant using your site's search engine to revisit the topic ...

G'Day
illarraza
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by illarraza »

In my opinion, Kuan Yin's thousand arms are a metaphor for embracing a thousand different types of beings, people and animals.
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Minobu
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

illarraza wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:36 am
Minobu wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:33 pm so we have people saying Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Eternal Buddha and then we have Shoshu saying Nichiren is The Eternal Buddha of kuon Gango.

but where did this concept of naming Lord Sakyamuni Buddha as the Eternal Buddha originate?

Nichiren Shonin never once said it out right.He did not even allude to such a thing.....all anyone can come up with is interpretation and looking for innuendo in our Master's gosho .

so now i hear the guy who started Kempon Hokke came up with this concept over 100 years after Nichiren Shonin's passing away.

It's his teachings that interpret and prove with innuendo that Lord Sakyamuni Buddha is the Eternal Buddha ..

So like a couple of hundred years after that shoshu goes one further and says no no no ...our innuendo proves Nichiren Daishonin is the Primordial Buddha of Kuon Ganjo..


This is the work of Mara...plain and simple..It misdirects our volition ..

thread after thread and no one can show me actual proof that Nichiren taught these wacked out ideas on Lord Sakyamuni Buddha ...Nichiren Shonin always speaks of when He attained enlightenment.. attained...people ....look up what attained means...how can you Attain primordial Buddha status..

So i put it to you did this all start with the making of a new Nichiren sect called Kempon Hokke..
No Gohonzons inscribed by Nichiren Shonin in this sect...only innuendo...

when i asked illarazza if this guy ever actually met Saint Nichiren Shonin here is the answer.
illarraza wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:20 am

Yes. He met him through the Opening of the Eyes and the On Practicing the Buddha's Teachings.



Mark

so exactly...He used his interpretation of these sacred Gosho to make up a new sect and introduce us to Lord Sakyamuni Buddha being The Eternal Buddha ...which led to shoshu's take on the idea...

shameful...pure shameful to continue with this corruption of Saint Nichiren Daishonin's teachings.



So i spent years of trying to figure this out and with this one line from illarazza proved they are mistaken and being duped big time from some ego from the past.. Also a big shout out to SZ for giving me the time when this Kempon Hokke sect was formed.

attained means succeed in achieving (something someone has worked on )

illarraza wrote: Thu Nov 05, 2020 12:54 am

I beg to differ. The Buddha and Nichiren state:

"Shakyamuni Buddha attained enlightenment at a time even more distant than gohyaku jintengo." (Nichiren, MW, Vol.2, p.268)
His own post proves that the Buddha attained enlightenment...and was not enlightenment...

Nichiren Shonin taught we are all Buddhas by nature....When we attain enlightenment we realize this and the road to Buddhahood becomes clear.
You must be familiar only with the translations based on the modern Gosho Zenshu (SGI and NST translations). In the NOPPA and Kempon Hokke Gosho we read passages that directly translate as "eternal Buddha"

“Now , when the Eternal Buddha was revealed in the essential section of the Lotus Sutra, this world of endurance (Saha-world) became the Eternal Pure Land, indestructible even by the three calamities of conflagration, flooding, and strong winds, which are said to destroy the world. It transcends the four periods of cosmic change: the kalpa of construction, continuance, destruction and emptiness. Sakyamuni Buddha, the Lord-preacher of this pure land, has never died in the past, nor will He be born in the future. He exists forever throughout the past present and future. All those who receive His guidance are one with this Eternal Buddha.” — The True Object of Devotion for Observing the Mind (NOPPA)

"The object of worship (honzon) at the scene of this transmission of "Namu Myo-ho-ren-ge-kyo" from the Eternal Buddha to his original disciples is: Suspended in the sky above the Eternal Buddha Sakyamuni's Saha-world is a stupa of treasures, in which Buddhas Sakyamuni and Taho sit to the left and right of "Myo-ho-ren-ge-kyo". They are waited on by four bodhisattvas such as Jogyo (Superior Practice)representing the original disciples of the Eternal Buddha called out from underground. Four more bodhisattvas including Manjusri and Maitreya, take lower seats as followers, other great and minor bodhisattvas---those converted by the Buddha in the theoretical section and those who came from other lands---resemble numerous people sitting on the ground and looking up at court nobles. also lined up on the ground are Buddhas in manifestation (funjin Buddhas) who gathered together from all the worlds in the universe in praise of the Buddha's preaching, representing provisional Buddhas in their respective lands.(ibid)

“Since Sakyamuni Buddha is eternal and all other Buddhas in the universe are his manifestations, then those great bodhisattvas converted by manifested Buddhas are also disciples of Lord Sakyamuni Buddha. If the “Life Span of the Buddha” chapter had not been expounded, it would be like the sky without the sun and moon, a country without a king, mountains and rivers without gems, or a man without a soul. nevertheless, seemingly knowledgeable men of such provisional schools of Buddhism as Ch’eng-kuan of the Hua-yen, Chia-hsiang of the San-lun, Tz’u-en of the Fa-hsiang, and Kobo of the shingon tried to extol their own canons by stating: “The Lord of the Flower Garland Sutra represents the reward-body (hojin) of the Buddha whereas that of the Lotus Sutra the accomodative body (ojin);” or “the Buddha in the sixteenth chapter of the Lotus is an Illusion; it is the great Sun Buddha who is enlightened.” clouds cover the moon and slanderers hide wise men. When people slander, ordinary yellow rocks appear to be of gold and slanderers seem to be wise. Scholars in this age of decay, blinded by slanderous words, do not see the value of a gold in the “Lifespan of the Buddha” chapter. Even among men of the Tendai school some are fooled into taking a yellow rock for gold. They should know that if Sakyamuni had not been the Eternal Buddha, there could not have been so many who received guidance from Him. ” — The Opening of the Eyes (NOPPA)

Even in the SGI and NST Gosho translations we read passages such as the following:

Thus, in the various sutras other than the Lotus Sutra, Shakyamuni does not assemble Buddhas who carry out different austerities and practices and who possess the three bodies, nor does he identify them as emanations of himself. [Only in the “Treasure Tower” chapter of the Lotus Sutra does he do so.] This chapter, then, is intended as an introduction to the “Life Span” chapter that follows later. Shakyamuni Buddha, who was believed to have attained enlightenment for the first time only some forty years previously, calls together Buddhas who had become enlightened as long as one or even ten kalpas ago, and declares that they are emanations of himself. This is a far cry indeed from the Buddha’s usual preaching on the equality of all Buddhas [in their Dharma bodies], and in fact a cause of great astonishment. If Shakyamuni had attained enlightenment for the first time only some forty years earlier, there could hardly have been so many beings in the ten directions who had received his instruction. And even if he was privileged to possess emanations, there would have been no benefit in his showing them to his listeners. T’ien-t’ai, describing what went on in the astonished minds of the assembly, says, “It was evident to them that Shakyamuni Buddha possessed numerous emanations. Therefore, they understood that he must have attained enlightenment in the far distant past.” - Opening of the Eyes

“When we come to the essential teaching of the Lotus Sutra, then the belief that Shakyamuni first obtained Buddhahood during his present lifetime is demolished, and the effects of the four teachings are likewise demolished. When the effects of the four teachings are demolished, the causes of the four teachings are likewise demolished. Thus the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds as expounded in the earlier sutras and the theoretical teaching of the Lotus Sutra are wiped out, and the cause and effect of the Ten Worlds in the essential teaching are revealed. This is the doctrine of original cause and original effect. It reveals that the nine worlds are all present in beginningless Buddhahood and that Buddhahood is inherent in the beginningless nine worlds. This is the true mutual possession of the Ten Worlds, the true hundred worlds and thousand factors, the true three thousand realms in a single moment of life.” (ibid)

"When Shakyamuni Buddha revealed that he had gained enlightenment in the far distant past, it became apparent that all the other Buddhas were emanations of Shakyamuni. When the Buddha preached the earlier sutras and the first half, or theoretical teaching, of the Lotus Sutra, the other Buddhas were pictured as standing on an equal footing with Shakyamuni, after completing their respective practices and disciplines. Therefore, the people who take one or another of these Buddhas as their object of devotion customarily look down on Shakyamuni Buddha. But now it becomes apparent that Vairochana Buddha, who is described in the Flower Garland Sutra as being seated on a lotus pedestal, and the various Buddhas who appear in the sutras of the Correct and Equal and the Wisdom periods, such as the Mahāvairochana Sutra, are all in fact followers of Shakyamuni Buddha." (ibid)

Since the Buddha [of the “Life Span” chapter] is revealed as the Buddha who attained enlightenment in the remote past [and all the other Buddhas as his emanations], it follows that not only the great bodhisattvas whom Shakyamuni himself taught in his transient status, but the great bodhisattvas from other realms [who were taught by the Buddhas of their own realms] are also in fact disciples of Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings. If, among all the numerous sutras, this “Life Span” chapter should be lacking, it would be as though there were no sun or moon in the sky, no supreme ruler in the nation, no gems in the mountains and rivers, and no spirit in human beings." (ibid)

"But now that it has become apparent that Shakyamuni Buddha attained enlightenment countless kalpas ago, then the bodhisattvas Sunlight and Moonlight, who attend the Thus Come One Medicine Master of the eastern region, and the bodhisattvas Perceiver of the World’s Sounds and Great Power, who attend the Thus Come One Amida of the western region, along with the disciples of all the Buddhas of the worlds of the ten directions, and the great bodhisattvas who are disciples of the Thus Come One Mahāvairochana as they are shown in the Mahāvairochana and Diamond Crown sutras—all of these beings are disciples of Shakyamuni Buddha, the lord of teachings. Since the various Buddhas themselves are emanations of the Thus Come One Shakyamuni, it goes without saying that their disciples must be disciples of Shakyamuni. And of course the various deities of the sun, moon, and stars, who have dwelt in this world since the beginning of the kalpa of continuance, must likewise be disciples of Shakyamuni Buddha."

There are several dozen similar passages in the SGI/NST translations but, unlike the NOPPA and Kempon Hokke translation, SGI and NST are either circumspect about the identity of the Eternal Buddha or point to Myoho renge kyo as the Eternal Buddha in several writings. However, the writings that point to Myoho renge kyo as the Eternal Buddha are only found in the "Probably" or "Definitely" inauthentic sections of the Showa Tehon and in two places in the five major writings of SGI/NST. For example, The True Object of Worship and On Repaying Debts of Gratitude and in the two forged writings, The True Aspect of All Phenomena and the Record of the Orally Transmitted Teachings. If you are interested in the two places that are mistranslated in the SGI/NST translations of these two major works, I will point them out to you and contrast them with the NOPPA translations.

I suggest you search, "emanations" in the SGI Nichiren Library Search engine. I also suggest you see The Rooster Diagram of the Five Periods Gosho.

Mark
someone emailed me this....


example I saw that illaraza posted many quotes from the Nichiren Shu English gosho Kanjin Honzon Sho but left out the part where Nichiren says that the Shakyamuni in India is not the eternal Buddha. I have 5 different versions of the gosho in Japanese and Chinese that all state this. They all say the same thing as the original.
This is self satisfied understanding, one of the 14 slanders (ju shi hibo)

so you are in the same boat as those you condemn...maybe worst for you now you left this out to prove the kempon hokke narrative , which is wrong from the get go...
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Minobu
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Re: is Kempon Hokke responsible for Buddha of Kuon Ganjo concept ?

Post by Minobu »

Attatchment to concepts to the point it has caused this much disunity amongst the various schools is the crux of the problem...

We all need to demand of our leaders to come together and put aside their differences for the ultimate cause....unity whilst having the differences ...

like we need them , the leaders , to learn to play nice...
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