Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Forum for discussion of East Asian Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Lotus415
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:42 pm

Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Lotus415 »

Have to say I was quite shocked to read all of this....

"Homosexual behavior, especially, is behavior that will put an end to nations and humanity. What does it mean by putting an end to nations? Someone who practices homosexuality will not care about their country, so that country will disintegrate. Homosexuals do not procreate, so the human race will vanish! This kind of behavior is forbidden by national law, universal law, and natural law. Those who do will fall into the hells no matter who they are. Every one of us must know this.

People cannot be oblivious to the basic responsibilities of human beings, otherwise we cannot even compare to animals. Notice how animals do not engage in homosexual behavior. Some may argue that same-sex lab rats practice homosexuality, but that is because you force these rats. Has anyone confined you so that you are only with those of your sex and make you practice homosexuality? This kind of behavior defies creation; it is wrong. Cultivators must be normal and not psychologically deranged."

the rest can be read here:
http://www.gbm-online.com/online/dharma/avoid.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
catmoon
Former staff member
Posts: 3423
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:20 am
Location: British Columbia

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by catmoon »

:jawdrop:
Sergeant Schultz knew everything there was to know.
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Ouch-time again and again.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
Huseng
Former staff member
Posts: 6336
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Huseng »

Regardless of how much education or status you may have, engaging in homosexual behavior is intolerable to the world. Why? It is because you have flouted the natural order of creation, the laws of yin and yang, the norm.
Natural order of creation? This is not a Buddhist idea it goes without saying.
If homosexuality becomes legal, then the human race will vanish. Why will it vanish? Heaven will punish us.
I was unaware of a "heaven" with the agency to punish humanity.

This is a bunch of bogus gay bashing nonsense.
User avatar
rory
Posts: 1574
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 8:08 am
Location: SouthEast USA

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by rory »

Why are you shocked; Asian Buddhism has been oh so very sexist and misogynistic for millenia. As a gay woman it's no suprise to me; I'm more than happy in a Japanese sect that accepts me as I am & knows that being Buddhist has nothing to do with one's particular sexuality
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/
Lotus415
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:42 pm

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Lotus415 »

Shocked, and disappointed, especially since he is referred to as a Bodhissatva by some. Imagine how many may have been turned away from the Dharma from hearing such horrible words? It's one thing to have an opinion on homosexuality, as the Dalai Lama has been known to state, but these words are just very unsettling.
Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Andrew108 »

His ideas on Homosexuality are extreme but also common in the sense that they were culturally conditioned. But his idea of dharma was really scary:

''How should we cultivate? We must first let go of our desires and put and end to love.
That is, people should avoid having too close or too distant of a relationship.
Being too distant and you're not liked; being too close and you're being emotional,
which means that you cannot cultivate.''

Compare this with Dilgo Kyentse's 'Dzogchen Prctice in Everyday Life'

''The everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and
openness to all situations and emotions, and to all people, experiencing
everything totally without mental reservations and blockages, so that
one never withdraws or centralizes into oneself.''
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Rakz
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Rakz »

Andrew, general Mahayana has always been the path of renunciation. Nothing scary about that.
Lotus415
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:42 pm

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Lotus415 »

Andrew108 wrote:His ideas on Homosexuality are extreme but also common in the sense that they were culturally conditioned. But his idea of dharma was really scary:

''How should we cultivate? We must first let go of our desires and put and end to love.
That is, people should avoid having too close or too distant of a relationship.
Being too distant and you're not liked; being too close and you're being emotional,
which means that you cannot cultivate.''

Compare this with Dilgo Kyentse's 'Dzogchen Prctice in Everyday Life'

''The everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and
openness to all situations and emotions, and to all people, experiencing
everything totally without mental reservations and blockages, so that
one never withdraws or centralizes into oneself.''
Question and answer to Master Hsuan Hua:

Q: Is it okay for people to be close and is it okay for people and their pets to be close?
A: By being too close, you end up becoming the same life-form as that person or pet in the future.

http://www.gbm-online.com/online/dharma ... s_5_1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This site has many of his talks and question and answer sessions with him. I'm finding a lot of his responses to be quite ..... different.
Blue Garuda
Posts: 1967
Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:23 pm

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Blue Garuda »

I think religious figures have a tough time knowing what to say, as ultimately their source material for such declarations is anachronistic and authored by someone living in a very different world.

I don't recall Buddha specifically declaring homosexuality to be immoral or sexual misconduct, but there are figures representing religious institutions who do so.

There are many threads about the topic, but I haven't seen anything conclusively linked to Shakyamuni.

Can you have homosexual desire and still be a Buddhist?

Can you actively practise homosexuality and still be a Buddhist?

Is the above much different from asking if you can be a Buddhist if you desire or have a glass of wine every night?

If you take Vows, are you bound for hell if your interpretation is wrong or differs from your Guru's - and what if he or she changes their stance on the issue?

It is sometimes amusing to see how religious institutions squirm, wriggle, evade and obfuscate for fear of offending someone on one or other side of the debate on where you put your body parts.

I prefer religious leaders to be clear, like Hsuan Hua. Then we can decide for ourselves if we should follow them and their interpretation of Buddhism.

Christians have the same issue, and the same squirming clerics.

Surely it's an easy question for them to answer so people can decide - is homosexual behaviour a form of misconduct they want their followers to avoid?

There are many forms of bigotry and exclusion within Buddhism, and they are rarely consistent or static - look at what happens if the being you are told is your enlightened Dharmapala is suddenly classed as a demon by your religious leader.

Who knows what may be next ? Therefore, it is vital for us that Gurus are honest and state their views simply - as Hsuan Hua did. Now people know exactly how to behave in terms of being his follower.

Here's one link I found:

http://www.religionfacts.com/homosexuality/buddhism.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Left
Andrew108
Posts: 1502
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2011 7:41 pm

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Andrew108 »

Nighthawk wrote:Andrew, general Mahayana has always been the path of renunciation. Nothing scary about that.
That ain't renunciation. That ain't Mahayana.
The Blessed One said:

"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." Sabba Sutta.
Rakz
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:04 am

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Rakz »

Andrew108 wrote:
Nighthawk wrote:Andrew, general Mahayana has always been the path of renunciation. Nothing scary about that.
That ain't renunciation. That ain't Mahayana.
You know more than Hsuan Hua? He's wrong about the gay issue but from most of his teachings I've read he is 100% Mayahana.
plwk
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by plwk »

There was an old thread on the now defunct E-Sangha as I recall which had a similar topic and some posters were saying that many of these alleged sayings and quotes that are propped up even on sites promoting the late Master's teachings are 'unverifiable' and best to contact the main monastery site to confirm these attributed statements' veracity and under what context. Site is http://cttbusa.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another related on the issue is an infamous booklet distributed in my part of the world is found here

Uh huseng, have you forgotten that Master Hsuan Hua has strong Confucian/Chinese cultural values in him? It's not uncommon for the Chinese with traditional background in Confucian mores to remark or even think of 'Heaven' as an agent of check and balance...
Last edited by plwk on Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Huseng
Former staff member
Posts: 6336
Joined: Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:19 pm

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Huseng »

Blue Garuda wrote: There are many threads about the topic, but I haven't seen anything conclusively linked to Shakyamuni.
There is Abhidharma literature which states oral and anal sex constitute sexual misconduct.

Curiously these same prohibitions exist in ancient Indian law texts like the Arthaśāstra from a similar if not the same time period.

I -suspect- the Abhidharma authors felt compelled to go along with the Brahministic line of thought given the law codes which likewise said anything but vaginal intercourse was prohibited.
Lotus415
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:42 pm

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Lotus415 »

plwk wrote:There was an old thread on the now defunct E-Sangha as I recall which had a similar topic and some posters were saying that many of these alleged sayings and quotes that are propped up even on sites promoting the late Master's teachings are 'unverifiable' and best to contact the main monastery site to confirm these attributed statements' veracity and under what context. Site is http://cttbusa.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Another related on the issue is an infamous booklet distributed in my part of the world is found here

Uh huseng, have you forgotten that Master Hsuan Hua has strong Confucian/Chinese cultural values in him? It's not uncommon for the Chinese with traditional background in Confucian mores to remark or even think of 'Heaven' as an agent of check and balance...
The official cttb website mentions homosexuality as sexual misconduct and results in birth in the lower realms.
http://www.cttbusa.org/buddhism_brief_i ... apter3.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

Andrew108 wrote:But his idea of dharma was really scary:

''How should we cultivate? We must first let go of our desires and put and end to love'
I can already hear the fiddle and the drums, and see the glint of the steel.
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
plwk
Posts: 2932
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:41 am

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by plwk »

Yeah I am aware of that but in my interactions with them, even their members are open to varied interpretations on this issue, though most would give me the usual drivel but some of those members I know are gays and lesbians but they choose not to highlight their sexuality openly and I respect them for that. Have you actually conversed with the people there, both monastics and laity as I have on this issue, even though I am not their member?

The Elder Master Ven Heng Sure has a blog of his own. Maybe you can contact him via a personal message and see what is his interpretation?
User avatar
Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 8881
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by Astus »

As far as I know, Ven. Hsuan Hua did not speak English and his primary audience was ethnic Chinese people. Since Buddhism in Asian countries is as conservative and traditional as Christianity in Western cultures, these views are not that strange then. Of course, this is not an excuse, but simply a possible explanation.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
gyougan
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:37 pm
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by gyougan »

One more proof that true Buddhist masters are nearly extinct.
User avatar
treehuggingoctopus
Posts: 2506
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 6:26 pm
Location: EU

Re: Hsuan Hua on Homosexuality

Post by treehuggingoctopus »

gyougan wrote:One more proof that true Buddhist masters are nearly extinct.
Interesting. Do you think that Buddhist teachers of the past didn't hold such views? That they were on the whole freer from prejudice and everyday misconceptions than the contemporary ones are?
Générosité de l’invisible.
Notre gratitude est infinie.
Le critère est l’hospitalité.

Edmond Jabès
Locked

Return to “East Asian Buddhism”