Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

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Taikor.Taikun
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Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by Taikor.Taikun »

Hi, what you all think about Master Hsin Tao and his Buddhist school?

I m recently trying to understand this ‘new’ Buddhist organisation after an old friend invited my wife to visit her Buddhist centre; the Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhist Centre.

She gave a web link that leads to the one based in Taiwan. I saw the founder’s video before but i did not pay attention to it.

The school claim to be Chan (Zen) but its founder, Master Hsin Tao, wear like a Vajrayana monk?

Was he really ordained by Fo Guang Shan’s Master Hsing Yun?

Did he claimed enlightenment? He had visions of Milarepa, Wei Tuo Dharma Protector… etc., appeared before him.

How are his teachings?
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FiveSkandhas
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I don't know enough about him to pass judgement on him. However his eclecticism sits uneasily with me. He is involved in something called the "Elijah Interfaith Institute." Interfaith activities are all well and good but one must be careful that the Dharma is not lost in a new-age blend of "perennialism".

The "crossover" of Chan and Vajrayana imagery, etc. he seems to embrace also leaves me with questions. However, it is worth remembering that in Chinese history, the sectarian divide between esotericism and Chan was historically rather porous. Thus, it is not necessarily a problem, but it should be scrutinized with sharp eyes.

It should also be noted he was accused of alleged sexual impropriety roughly 20 years ago...a charge he and his supporters strenuously deny. Still, it raises further questions.

If I had to pick a Taiwanese master to follow, I would probably seek elsewhere, such as Dharma Drum. This is just based on my personal impression and superficial skepticism. Perhaps he should be given more credit; maybe another poster can tell you more.
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SilenceMonkey
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

I think he’s an awesome teacher, with a lot of retreat experience and probably some real realization. The Nyingma lama of a friend of mine in Taipei says he has a reputation of being a good practitioner. And there was a video of him walking with HH Chetsang Rinpoche of the Drikung Kagyu. Maybe he had invited HH Chetsang Rinpoche to Taiwan for teaching?

When he was younger, he meditated in a charnel grounds for ten years. And apparently he spends most of his time in a cave, practicing. He doesn’t teach Vajrayana to lay people, only Chan (shamatha with listening to emptiness method) and Great Compassion dharani. They say he practices the Great Compassion dharani every day for four hours, something like 1,000 repetitions.

At his monastery, there is a plaque from the government one of the Theravadin countries (maybe Sri Lanka or Burma) praising him for achieving some of the highest levels of meditation. They didn’t talk about this in the dharma classes I attended for four months, it was mentioned on the tour as we passed by the plaque.

The only criticism I’ve heard about him is that he is a bit touchy, meaning he might touch people (women or men) on the shoulders or arms or something in ways that chinese monks might not. But that’s also common with Tibetan monks and nuns. :shrug:

Personally, I think he’s an amazing teacher. The methods are good and when I met him I received very powerful blessing from him, which stayed with me for three days. It seems his blessings are often conferred by touch.

He opened up a Museum of World Religions right by where I used to teach English in Yonghe. And every year he conducts interfaith peace talks. He’s not a perennialist, but more in line with Thich Nhat Hanh’s interfaith dialogue. And I wouldn’t discount him merely because he practices all three vehicles of Buddhism (Theravada too), which seems to be a bias on DW. And for good reason... there have been a number of frauds who claim to be master of everything. But this one is actually different.

Maybe I’m the only one on the forum who learned from his students and went to meet him. It sounds like you’re in Taiwan, I would say go for it. You could learn his method in dharma classes held in your area, then go up for a 禪七. He’s getting older and it might be good to go meet him while you still can. I think he has a powerful connection with Guanyin.

I also learned from Dharma Drum Mountain, having lived there for a year. In terms of the methods, in my own estimation both were good. Just a different flavor. Then again, Master Sheng Yen wrote a lot more about how to practice in his books (most of them in chinese) which are very helpful.

If nothing else, go see the monastery. It’s stunning.
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Taikor.Taikun
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by Taikor.Taikun »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:55 am I don't know enough about him to pass judgement on him. However his eclecticism sits uneasily with me. He is involved in something called the "Elijah Interfaith Institute." Interfaith activities are all well and good but one must be careful that the Dharma is not lost in a new-age blend of "perennialism".

The "crossover" of Chan and Vajrayana imagery, etc. he seems to embrace also leaves me with questions. However, it is worth remembering that in Chinese history, the sectarian divide between esotericism and Chan was historically rather porous. Thus, it is not necessarily a problem, but it should be scrutinized with sharp eyes.

It should also be noted he was accused of alleged sexual impropriety roughly 20 years ago...a charge he and his supporters strenuously deny. Still, it raises further questions.

If I had to pick a Taiwanese master to follow, I would probably seek elsewhere, such as Dharma Drum. This is just based on my personal impression and superficial skepticism. Perhaps he should be given more credit; maybe another poster can tell you more.
Nowadays, many people r practising both exoteric n esoteric teachings. This is probably due to influence by Master Haitao who brings the Han Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism together. Dharma assemblies n events have both Chinese n Tibetan monks. No issue.

I also follow Dharma Drum teachings to learn about its Guanyin Methods
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Taikor.Taikun
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by Taikor.Taikun »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:36 pm I think he’s an awesome teacher, with a lot of retreat experience and probably some real realization. The Nyingma lama of a friend of mine in Taipei says he has a reputation of being a good practitioner. And there was a video of him walking with HH Chetsang Rinpoche of the Drikung Kagyu. Maybe he had invited HH Chetsang Rinpoche to Taiwan for teaching?

When he was younger, he meditated in a charnel grounds for ten years. And apparently he spends most of his time in a cave, practicing. He doesn’t teach Vajrayana to lay people, only Chan (shamatha with listening to emptiness method) and Great Compassion dharani. They say he practices the Great Compassion dharani every day for four hours, something like 1,000 repetitions.

At his monastery, there is a plaque from the government one of the Theravadin countries (maybe Sri Lanka or Burma) praising him for achieving some of the highest levels of meditation. They didn’t talk about this in the dharma classes I attended for four months, it was mentioned on the tour as we passed by the plaque.

The only criticism I’ve heard about him is that he is a bit touchy, meaning he might touch people (women or men) on the shoulders or arms or something in ways that chinese monks might not. But that’s also common with Tibetan monks and nuns. :shrug:

Personally, I think he’s an amazing teacher. The methods are good and when I met him I received very powerful blessing from him, which stayed with me for three days. It seems his blessings are often conferred by touch.

He opened up a Museum of World Religions right by where I used to teach English in Yonghe. And every year he conducts interfaith peace talks. He’s not a perennialist, but more in line with Thich Nhat Hanh’s interfaith dialogue. And I wouldn’t discount him merely because he practices all three vehicles of Buddhism (Theravada too), which seems to be a bias on DW. And for good reason... there have been a number of frauds who claim to be master of everything. But this one is actually different.

Maybe I’m the only one on the forum who learned from his students and went to meet him. It sounds like you’re in Taiwan, I would say go for it. You could learn his method in dharma classes held in your area, then go up for a 禪七. He’s getting older and it might be good to go meet him while you still can. I think he has a powerful connection with Guanyin.

I also learned from Dharma Drum Mountain, having lived there for a year. In terms of the methods, in my own estimation both were good. Just a different flavor. Then again, Master Sheng Yen wrote a lot more about how to practice in his books (most of them in chinese) which are very helpful.

If nothing else, go see the monastery. It’s stunning.
He practises Vajrayana but teaches Chan?

Im from Malaysia, not in Taiwan. I do read books n commentaries by Master Sheng Yen n DDM teachings, especially on the Guanyin Methods.

I just wonder is Ling Jiou Shan recognised by Buddhist associations?

What do u think about him having visions of Milarepa and Wei Tuo Bodhisattva?
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Taikor.Taikun wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:22 pm
He practises Vajrayana but teaches Chan?

Im from Malaysia, not in Taiwan. I do read books n commentaries by Master Sheng Yen n DDM teachings, especially on the Guanyin Methods.

I just wonder is Ling Jiou Shan recognised by Buddhist associations?

What do u think about him having visions of Milarepa and Wei Tuo Bodhisattva?
I’m not sure exactly what he practices, but I’m sure he practices Chan. The first thing he said to me when I met him was a huatou, which completely took me off guard. I think the Sangha on the mountain does a Vajrayana liturgy, but I don’t know anything more than that. The Great Compassion dharani is not exactly Chan, but general Mahayana.

I’m not sure what you mean by “recognized.” And Ling Jiou Shan is itself a large Buddhist organization. I’m not quite sure of its reputation among the other large Buddhist organizations such as DDM, FGS and CTS. Structurally, it seems pretty similar. There are many branch centers around Taiwan where members of the Sangha hold classes on meditation and lectures on sutras.

As for the visions... I think it’s interesting and very possible. I believe he wrote about them in his autobiography, which is in Chinese. I get the impression that masters in the Chan tradition wouldn’t speak about such things if they ever happened, but that lamas in Tibetan traditions sometimes do. It seems possible to me that he was doing his chinese Mahayana practices and spontaneously had a vision of Milarepa, which may have led him to seek out a Kagyu master. But that’s just my guess. I’m sure it would be in the book.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

It's very possible and actually common in Chinese Buddhism to practice from more than one tradition. For example, at Dharma Drum Mountain members of the Sangha will have a particular sutra or mantra they like to chant as their daily practice. Many will practice in the Pure Land tradition or the Tiantai tradition as well as Chan. There is a strong Tiantai current at Dharma Drum as Master Sheng Yen was very interested in this and did some research in this area.

What is uncommon is for prominent Chinese Mahayana practitioners to also practice Tibetan Vajrayana. I think a large reason for this may be the anti-Vajrayana ideology of Chinese Mahayana. Just as Theravadins don't accept Mahayana as legitimate, Chinese Mahayana more often than not will reject Vajrayana. I think that for a prominent Dharma teacher in Chinese Buddhism to also practice Vajrayana would often be considered something akin to blasphemy and they would lose their standing in the community. I actually respect Ven. Hsin Dao for this very reason, as he doesn't seem too interested in going along with these kinds of orthodox attitudes and is more interested in practice. (Many members of the larger sanghas in Taiwan may not get a chance to meditate for more than one or two hours a day, as they are often made busy with other chores and institutional duties.) That's just my take.
jmlee369
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by jmlee369 »

Taikor.Taikun wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:30 am Hi, what you all think about Master Hsin Tao and his Buddhist school?

I m recently trying to understand this ‘new’ Buddhist organisation after an old friend invited my wife to visit her Buddhist centre; the Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhist Centre.

She gave a web link that leads to the one based in Taiwan. I saw the founder’s video before but i did not pay attention to it.

The school claim to be Chan (Zen) but its founder, Master Hsin Tao, wear like a Vajrayana monk?

Was he really ordained by Fo Guang Shan’s Master Hsing Yun?

Did he claimed enlightenment? He had visions of Milarepa, Wei Tuo Dharma Protector… etc., appeared before him.

How are his teachings?
I have no personal stakes in this matter, but just looking at what information is publicly available, here's what I can gather.

He wears Theravada, more specifically Burmese robes because he was invited to attend some ordination ceremony in Burma, and since attending that ceremony he wore that style of robes to honour his Burmese heritage (he was born there and lived his early years there).

He was initially ordained by Fo Guang Shan's master Hsing Yun and trained there, hence his return visit to Fo Guang Shan documented here and he received the Linji Chan and Fo Guang Shan lineage through master Hsing Yun, as can be seen here (see photo caption at bottom of page) and here (first in row of bhikshu dharma heirs).

Regarding his Vajrayana connection, it seems Bairo Zhichen Rinpoche conferred some sort of recognition, and requested Kathok Moktsa Rinpoche to do the enthronement ceremony. I remember coming across a video of Master Hsin Tao giving a Vajrayana initiation, and it seemed like there were lay disciples receiving it too.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Wow... incredible, thank you Jamie. It looks like Zhichen Bairo Rinpoche didn't merely "recognize" him in some way, he made Ven. Hsin Tao responsible for carrying on his lineage.

From the article:
Since 1997, Kyabje Zhichen Bairo Rinpoche has completely passed on to Venerable Master Hsin Tao the lineage of Nyingma Kathok Zhichen Lineage and he has been encouraging the master to spread this Vajrayana lineage in Chinese speaking regions, in order to benefit sentient beings. As Kyabje Zhichen Bairo Rinpoche becomes older, he often wishes his two "sons" who are like the sun and moon to meet frequently. This is the most precious and closest way to support the two beautiful spiritual lineages and the loving brotherhood between His Holiness the Gyalwang Drukpa and Venerable Master Hsin Tao is definitely the biggest encouragement for those who walk on the Bodhisattva path.
ItsRaining
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by ItsRaining »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:48 pm It's very possible and actually common in Chinese Buddhism to practice from more than one tradition. For example, at Dharma Drum Mountain members of the Sangha will have a particular sutra or mantra they like to chant as their daily practice. Many will practice in the Pure Land tradition or the Tiantai tradition as well as Chan. There is a strong Tiantai current at Dharma Drum as Master Sheng Yen was very interested in this and did some research in this area.

What is uncommon is for prominent Chinese Mahayana practitioners to also practice Tibetan Vajrayana. I think a large reason for this may be the anti-Vajrayana ideology of Chinese Mahayana. Just as Theravadins don't accept Mahayana as legitimate, Chinese Mahayana more often than not will reject Vajrayana. I think that for a prominent Dharma teacher in Chinese Buddhism to also practice Vajrayana would often be considered something akin to blasphemy and they would lose their standing in the community. I actually respect Ven. Hsin Dao for this very reason, as he doesn't seem too interested in going along with these kinds of orthodox attitudes and is more interested in practice. (Many members of the larger sanghas in Taiwan may not get a chance to meditate for more than one or two hours a day, as they are often made busy with other chores and institutional duties.) That's just my take.
I’m not sure why you say this since mixing Chan and Vajrayana is very common since the last century with a lot of Tibetans moving into Chinese areas. There have been a number of high profile teacher with this combination like Yuan Yin, Nan Huai Jin, Taixu who promoted the dual study of Tibetan and Chinese Buddhism, Chen Shu Biao a student of Xuyun, etc.
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

ItsRaining wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:37 am
Hmm... maybe you're right. Don't forget the great Meng Ts'an! There were said to be rainbows in the sky over his temple on Wutai Shan when he passed into Nirvana.

I haven't heard of Yuan Yin and Chen Shu Biao. Could you say a bit about them or possibly provide some links or other references? And how would you spell their names in chinese characters?
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Thanks to a post by Supramundane linking to this teaching by Hsin Tao, I found there is a zen teacher in Dallas, TX who is connected with him and has written a book on his teachings in english.

https://wikkorg.wordpress.com/2021/07/0 ... o-silence/

https://www.kaiciid.org/dialogue-knowle ... eis-habito

https://www.bookdepository.com/Way-Hear ... 1530660131
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Taikor.Taikun
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Re: Hsin Tao and Ling Jiou Mountain Buddhism

Post by Taikor.Taikun »

Been watching videos by LJM TV on YouTube.

They have a beautiful monastery on beautiful mountains overlooking the seas.



I learned more abt their life, their dharma assemblies, their dharma talks r great too, very organised n informative. I'm glad my friend join this school. Good for her
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