Chan samadhi

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ShantiM
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Chan samadhi

Post by ShantiM »

Hello all,

In regard to these passages below from the Shurangama Sutra, do these apply to lay people who obviously still not renounced of lust, killing, and stealing but practice some forms of meditation, eg. mindfulness... Would such practices lead to these bad rebirth as mentioned in the sutra?


http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama/shurangama23.asp
Even though one may have some wisdom and the manifestation of Chan samadhi, one is certain to enter demonic paths if one does not cut off lust. At best, one will be a demon king; on the average, one will be in the retinue of demons; at the lowest level, one will be a female demon.
Even though one may have some wisdom and the manifestation of Chan samadhi, one is certain to enter the path of spirits if one does not cease killing. At best, a person will become a mighty ghost; on the average, one will become a flying yaksha, a ghost leader, or the like; at the lowest level, one will become an earth-bound rakshasa.
Even though one may have some wisdom and the manifestation of Chan samadhi, one is certain to enter a devious path if one does not cease stealing. At best, one will be an apparition; on the average, one will become a phantom; at the lowest level, one will be a devious person who is possessed by a mei ghost.
Thanks,

SM
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Chan samadhi

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

My understanding is that it is somewhat relative, but that yes, eventually that would be the case.
By relative, it means within the context of your approach, level or intensity of commitment and so on. For the casual lay practitioner, it’s not going to be as much of an issue immediately as it would be for a monk.

Think of the analogy of a gymnastic athlete, someone training for the Olympics. They are going to have a somewhat different diet than you or I.
Now, suppose someone brings a pizza home for dinner. Can you eat some pizza safely? Probably. Go have a few slices. No problem. But eventually, if all you eat is pizza, it will catch up with you. You may become overweight or have other health issues. That’s analogous to lust for example. Sure, go have sex. You can probably have sexual desires for your whole life and it won’t kill you.
But if you are trying to focus on meditation practice, that desire will get in your way. If you always just practice desires, you will end up with desires as your result.

In the Surangama sutra, the Buddha is talking to monks. Monks in this analogy is like the Olympic gymnast in training. They will probably not eat much pizza, if any, because adding a lot of fat is maybe not so good for their training. So, the effect is more severe. For monks, or anyone really into intense practice, lust, desire, stealing, all that stuff, it’s just going to get in the way. Whether one will literally be reborn in some unfortunate condition as described is really a matter of their own mind.
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Jesse
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Re: Chan samadhi

Post by Jesse »

I suspect it means that by simply engaging in meditation, you will not have the correct and proper understanding to make use of any of the states. When entering altered states through meditation, Buddhism has a fairly specific guide, and course of proper understanding of them, their uses. Which primarily are for removing suffering, clinging, aversion, removing delusion. Without that proper understanding, it could go very badly. You could instead find yourself with additional delusion. So yes, bad rebirths are possible. I wouldn't take what is said quite so literally, just be aware harm can be done to yourself without guidance from someone qualified.
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Taikor.Taikun
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Re: Chan samadhi

Post by Taikor.Taikun »

As i follow both Chinese n Tibetan Buddhism, i am told by monks n rinpoche that certain meditation practises requires guidance n observation by a teacher or master or risk become demonic w wrong perception or get possessed. Right view is important.

I do read Shurangama Sutra n chant its mantra. Recently there’s live Shurangama assembly which i join online every night by Guan Yin Shan Fazang in Taiwan. It’s a Vajrayana school.

For lay practitioners, renounce killing should not b a problem. For stealing, mayb not 100% but keep it to minimum. For lust, focus on the point between ur eye brows n breathe. It works very well for me
ronnymarsh
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Re: Chan samadhi

Post by ronnymarsh »

The answer can be found in the Surangama Sutra text itself.

In short, wisdom is the fruit of samadhi, and samadhi is the fruit of precepts. The perfect Wisdom of the Buddhas can only be attained (from this perspective) when all the precepts are kept perfectly.

A person who does not keep the precepts in question, can attain Samadhi Chan, can have some realizations, magnificent experiences, and thus attain basic levels of enlightenment.

However, as she does not have fully purified karma, she will reap in subsequent lives (or in this same life) the fruit of these actions, being reborn in the evil ways.

And something is important to note in the text: the context.

The Buddha speaks to Ananda about a context of realizations during a specific time: the Ending Age of Dharma. In this period the Buddhist lineage disappears, no one can have direct or indirect contact with a Buddha anymore, and therefore they cannot truly receive the precepts, and without receiving, they cannot maintain.

So the Buddha warns Ananda that if practitioners appear during this time who claim to have attained Samadhi realizations and who have wisdom, claiming to have attained enlightenment, then people should not follow them, for because they have no precepts their destiny is to turn to evil ways.

This is very consistent in certain circumstances with the Sangha present at the present time, especially in Japan, where monks are only monks in name, because they get married, deal with money, etc.

Then the Buddha says that in this Age of the End of Dharma, many people of all kinds will arise, from monks, laymen, kings, princes, even among prostitutes and people of low social status, who will be sent to guide people to the Paths Superiors and acquire Buddhahood.

That is why in China, and in the Japanese Tendai school, the Buddhist tradition did not separate Chan Samadhi from the practice of the Pure Land, as the vow of Ammitabha guarantees the nullification of negative karmas accumulated by people who cannot fully maintain the precepts. Thus, by accepting the Vow of Amitabha, the person without precepts in the End Age of Dharma is theoretically able to be reborn in Sukhavati instead of the evil paths where he was destined to go.
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Gregory Wonderwheel
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Re: Chan samadhi

Post by Gregory Wonderwheel »

"Chan-Samadhi", Skt. dhyana-samadhi; Ch. chan-sanmei 禪三昧 or chan-ding 禅定; J. zen-zanmai or zenjo; or in English Zen-Samadhi, is the essence of Zen/Chan practice.As both terms “zen” and “samadhi” have been incorporated into English dictionaries, I don’t translate them further. Zen-samadhi is discussed in several Sutras favored by the Zen lineages (e.g., the Lankavatara Sutra, Surangama Sutra, Lotus Sutra, etc.) and in many classic Zen/Chan texts, including Bodhidharma's Discourse on the Nature of Awakening, the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Ancestor and Hakuin's "Ode to Zazen."

In the Mahayana tradition and especially the One Vehicle (Ekayana) teachings, meditation practice is technically called zen-samadhi (from Sanskrit, dhyana-samadhi), or the samadhi of meditation. In practical language it is simply called “sitting zen” (J. zazen) or “sitting meditation.” Zen-samadhi is the primary solution to the Buddhist question of the spiritual search. The historical Buddha realized enlightenment by sitting zen-samadhi under the Tree of Awakening, the Bodhi Tree.

As taught in the "Parable of the Wayward Son" in the Lotus Sutra (full title True Dharma of the White Lotus Sutra), though Buddha preached and taught many truths, principles, and doctrines they all amounted to the skillful means of a wealthy father (the Buddha) who wanted to return his lost and poor son (all beings) to his true inheritance to be gained by zen-samadhi. It is noteworthy that this story from the Lotus Sutra is specifically referred to in Hakuin’s “Ode to Zazen” praising zen samadhi. Thus, all the hundreds of thousands of words in the Buddha’s teachings amount only to various skillful means of convincing us to sit (za) and meditate (zen) like the Buddha did to realize enlightenment for oneself through zen samadhi

The recognition of “zen samadhi” in the Zen lineages goes back to the founder of Chinese Chan/Zen, Bodhidharma, whose Discourse on the Nature of Awakening (達磨大師悟性論) states:

“If a person knows that the six roots (i.e., 6 sense organs) are not real, that the five accumulations (skandhas) are provisional names, and that seeking everywhere for their substance is necessarily to dwell without samadhi, then one should know that such a person expounds the words of the Buddha. The sutra says, ‘A home in the cave of the five accumulations (skandhas) is called the courtyard of zen.’ When the inner illumination is opened and unbound, then the gate of the Great Vehicle could not be brighter! To not think about everything (sarvadharma), therefore is called doing zen-samadhi (dhyana-samadhi). If someone understands these words, then walking, standing, sitting, and lying down are all zen-samadhi.
“Knowing the mind is empty is called the act of seeing Buddha. What is considered the reason? For all Buddhas in the 10 directions, in every consideration there is no mind. Not seeing in the mind, is called the act of seeing Buddha. To unstingily renounce the body is called Great Charity (Skt. mahadana). The samadhi of detaching from the various activities is called Great Sitting Meditation (J. dai zazen). Because why? Worldly people are singly directed toward activities, and the Small Vehicle is singly directed toward samadhi. Namely, to pass beyond the worldly people and the sitting meditation (zazen) of the Small Vehicle is called ‘the Great Sitting Meditation.’ If those who act with this realization, in all the various appearances, do not seek to release themselves and, in all the various illnesses, do not cure their own errors, then this is entirely the power of Great Zen-Samadhi.”

So we see that zen samadhi has always been the core of zen practice as taught by the Zen ancestors.

Essentially, samadhi is the inherent state of steady or unperturbed awareness of one’s own true nature. In the Great Master Sixth Ancestor's Dharma Treasure Platform Sutra, Huineng says zen-samadhi is central to what training in Zen Buddhism is all about and describes zen-samadhi in this way:

“Learned and virtuous ones, what is called zen-samadhi (dhyana-samadhi)? Outwardly, to be free from characteristics is doing zen. Inwardly, to not be perturbed is doing samadhi. Outwardly, if one attaches to characteristics, inwardly, the heart-mind is immediately perturbed. Outwardly, if one is free from characteristics, the heart-mind is immediately not perturbed. The root nature by itself is pure, by itself is samadhi. Only by seeing conditions and thinking about conditions is one immediately perturbed. If someone sees various conditions and the heart-mind is not perturbed, this is real samadhi. Learned and virtuous ones, outwardly, to be free from characteristics is immediately zen. Inwardly, to not be perturbed is immediately samadhi. Outwardly, zen, inwardly, samadhi; this is doing zen-samadhi.”

Huineng also names two specific samadhis as the samadhis to be practiced by Zen people.

“If you want to bring to perfection the seed-knowledge (bija-jnana**,** sarvakara-jnana), you should achieve the Samadhi of Uniformity (一相三昧, A.K.A. Samadhi of One Characteristic) and the Samadhi of One Practice (一行三昧, A.K.A. Samadhi of One Act)."

Huineng further describes the Samadhi of One Practice as

"Virtuous companions, that which is the Samadhi of One Act (alt. Samadhi of the Practice of Oneness, Samadhi of One Practice, One Doing), at every place, walking or staying, sitting or lying down, is always acting with a singularly direct mind (alt. always practicing the one straightforward heart-mind)! [Vimalakirti] said, ‘A direct mind is the place of the Way (Skt. manda); a direct mind is the pure land.’ Do not act deceitfully with the mind. However the mouth may explain “direct” or the mouth may explain the “Samadhi of One Act”, it is not the acting direct mind. However, the acting direct mind does not have grasping attachment to every thing (dharma). Deluded people attach to the characteristics of things (Skt. dharmalaksana) and grasp at the Samadhi of One Act by the direct words: ‘Always sitting and not moving (so that) foolishness does not rise in the heart-mind is namely the Samadhi of One Act.’ Those who regard this as release then are the same as the insentient and still are obstructed in the primary and secondary causes of the Way."

Here, Huineng is recapitulating the description from Treatise on the Mahayana Arousing of Faith that says,

“It [the oneness of the Dharma-realm] designates that the Dharma-body of all the various Buddhas together with the body of the multitude of beings is universally the same without duality, and to be exact, it is called the “One-practice Samadhi.” One should know True Suchness is the original root of Samadhi, and if a person cultivates the practice, then little by little one is able to give birth to innumerable samadhis.”


Zen Master Dazhu (“The Great Pearl”) Huihai (c. second half of 8th century) said in his Discourse On The Essential Gate Of Entering The Way Of Immediate Awakening:

Question: For a man to cultivate the fundamental root, what method (Dharma) of cultivation should be used?
Answer, “Only by sitting meditation (zazen) is zen-samadhi quickly attained. The Dhyana Paramita Sutra (in Chinese literally the Zen Gate Sutra) says, ‘To seek the noble knowing (arya-jnana) of the Buddha, then zen-samadhi is necessary. If there is no zen-samadhi, thoughts and ideas clamor and stir and spoil their good roots.’”
Question: “Say what is ‘doing zen,’ and say what is ‘doing samadhi’?”
Answer: “To not give birth to false thoughts is ‘doing zen.’ Sitting to see the root nature is ‘doing samadhi.’ That which is the root nature is your unborn mind. In that which is samadhi, there is no mind that responds to the environment, and the eight winds are not able to stir. For that which are the eight winds, benefit and ruin, defamation and honor, praise and ridicule, and suffering and pleasure are called the eight winds. If like this one attains that which is samadhi, even if one is an ordinary man, one then enters the rank of Buddha.”

Note that “The Great Pearl” Huihai says zazen is the essential cultivation method, but zen samadhi is the essential realization of that cultivation. To me, this is exactly why Hakuin did not focus on “zazen” in his Ode, but instead focused on “zen samadhi.”


In his Introduction to the Collection of the Various Expositions of the Fountainhead of Zen Zen Master Guifeng Zongmi (780 – 841 C.E.) mentions zen-samadhi several times and even refers to the One Practice Samadhi in the manner of the Treatise on Mahayana Arousing of Faith and Huineng’s Platform Sutra:

“However, when the multitude of beings are confused about the real and unite with the dusts (of the senses) then that is called distraction. When they turn their backs to the dusts and unite with the real, just that is called zen-samadhi. […]
“Thus, the one practice of zen-samadhi is the most spiritually marvelous and is able to initiate arousing the nature to the superior non-outflowing wisdom (jnanaprajna). Every marvelous function of the myriad virtues and myriad practices, even up to the spiritual fluency of the shining brilliance, in every case are initiated from samadhi. For this reason, the students of the Three Vehicles desiring to seek the Noble Path certainly must cultivate zen. Separate from this, there is no gate. Separate from this there is no road. […]
“If you suddenly realize that your own mind comes from the root clear and pure and is originally without afflictions and that the nature of the non-outflowing knowledge (jnana) at the root is fully complete on its own; then this mind is exactly Buddha, and ultimately there are no distinctions. That which takes refuge in this and nevertheless cultivates it is the zen of the Most Supreme Vehicle. Likewise, it is called the pure and clear zen of the Tathagata. Likewise, it is called the Samadhi of One-Practice. Likewise, it is called the Samadhi of True Suchness. This is the root of every samadhi. If you are able to practice it moment by moment, it naturally soaks in and you attain one hundred thousand samadhis.”

In his Ode to Zazen, Hakuin writes
“As to the zen-samadhi of the Mahayana,
There is just too much to praise.”
I find it very interesting that Hakuin’s Ode only uses the word “zazen” in the title, yet the most used English translations of the Ode insert the term “zazen” into the body of the text. For example, three commonly used translations for the above two lines all substitute the term “zazen” into the verse in place of the actual term “zen-samadhi” used by Hakuin:

(1) "Oh, the zazen of the Mahayana! To this the highest praise!” (Norman Waddell),
(2) “For this the zazen of the Mahayana deserves the highest praise:” (Robert Aitken), and
(3) “As to Zazen taught in the Mahayana, No amount of praise can exhaust its merits.” (Zenkei Shibayama)

Where these three translate the term as “zazen” (坐禪) to echo the title, the term actually present in the text is “zen-samadhi” 禅定 (J. zenjo, Ch. chan-ding) from the Sanskrit dhyana-samadhi.

It is with zen-samadhi as the context that we can turn the light around. Zongmi says, “When they turn their backs to the dusts and unite with the real” he is describing asraya-paravrtti, taking the backward step and returning to the seat of awareness. This is the fruition of zen-samadhi.
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KeithA
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Re: Chan samadhi

Post by KeithA »

Oh, how I have missed a good GW post!

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being silent, moving, being still.
At all times, in all places, without interruption - what is this?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Chan samadhi

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Meditation is the mind’s natural state.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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