Guidance

[NoName]

Hi,



I'm drawn to Zen from participating in Zazen in my local Soto Zen Dojo & readings some of the books about Zen. I've received sitting instructions there and attended a sesshin as well. There is also something about Japanese Buddhism in particular that I feel drawn to. I don't know what it is, but I feel more connected to something there, hence I am posting here with the hope that you could offer some guidance.

But I've encountered two issues there:
1) there is no temple in my country
2) this particular direction does not seem to have much in terms of links to many Buddhist texts/ sutras etc.

My husband is a Vajrayana practitioner and he knows many mantras and sutras - and even reading around here I feel a huge disconnect between the vastness of Buddhist traditions and the very minimalist context that I know from my own practice.

A lot of the advice about finding the right tradition for you seems to be about finding a teacher.
I am not sure about how I'd go around finding a teacher as a lay person in an Zen school in the UK, and I am not even sure if the "find the right teacher" thing applies in this case, as from the way it looks in Soto Zen the main thing seems to be about instructions and shared practice. And... I don't know how to balance wanting to learn more about the wider tradition as well.

I am essentially attracted to the simplicty of Zen practice, but at the same time I feel that something is missing in terms of learning about the wider context and fitting into a tradition. I tried exploring Tibetan Buddhism, but I do feel it is not for me - at least not for now. I get a bit lots in it, and I feel that it works with emotion and energy, to use them as tools to help working with the mind. This is not appropriate for me as I have huge emotional/energetic resources that I am not particularly in touch with, I feel it would be dangerous if I used them as support when I am a bit out of touch with them. I am also a bit uncertain about the "finding your teacher" thing, it was obvious that the concept of the Tibetan student/teacher relationship did not work for me - I mistrust the power dynamic inherent in some teacher/student relationships, and tend to crumble when following rigid courses of teaching and I don't want to put myself into a situation where it hinders my practice.

I'd be grateful for some advice what traditions and practices I should research.
thank you

[PadmaVonSamba]

If you feel a connection with zen, do zen.
The book, ‘Zen Teachings of Bodhidharma’ (author:Red Pine) is an excellent book, and of course there are many.
There’s no need to hurry up and find a tradition or a teacher. If you read, practice, maybe watch videos, and keep up a regular practice of meditation, then whatever teachers appear, or Dharma centers open, you will know whether they are a good fit.
At the heart of the Dharma, it’s all about being there.

[SilenceMonkey]

Maybe zen traditions from other countries besides japan? It could be that you have zen in your area and don't know it.

[avatamsaka3]

Just sit and practice. What else in necessary?

[karmanyingpo]

Hi,



I'm drawn to Zen from participating in Zazen in my local Soto Zen Dojo & readings some of the books about Zen. I've received sitting instructions there and attended a sesshin as well. There is also something about Japanese Buddhism in particular that I feel drawn to. I don't know what it is, but I feel more connected to something there, hence I am posting here with the hope that you could offer some guidance.

But I've encountered two issues there:
1) there is no temple in my country
2) this particular direction does not seem to have much in terms of links to many Buddhist texts/ sutras etc.

My husband is a Vajrayana practitioner and he knows many mantras and sutras - and even reading around here I feel a huge disconnect between the vastness of Buddhist traditions and the very minimalist context that I know from my own practice.

A lot of the advice about finding the right tradition for you seems to be about finding a teacher.
I am not sure about how I'd go around finding a teacher as a lay person in an Zen school in the UK, and I am not even sure if the "find the right teacher" thing applies in this case, as from the way it looks in Soto Zen the main thing seems to be about instructions and shared practice. And... I don't know how to balance wanting to learn more about the wider tradition as well.

I am essentially attracted to the simplicty of Zen practice, but at the same time I feel that something is missing in terms of learning about the wider context and fitting into a tradition. I tried exploring Tibetan Buddhism, but I do feel it is not for me - at least not for now. I get a bit lots in it, and I feel that it works with emotion and energy, to use them as tools to help working with the mind. This is not appropriate for me as I have huge emotional/energetic resources that I am not particularly in touch with, I feel it would be dangerous if I used them as support when I am a bit out of touch with them. I am also a bit uncertain about the "finding your teacher" thing, it was obvious that the concept of the Tibetan student/teacher relationship did not work for me - I mistrust the power dynamic inherent in some teacher/student relationships, and tend to crumble when following rigid courses of teaching and I don't want to put myself into a situation where it hinders my practice.

I'd be grateful for some advice what traditions and practices I should research.
thank you

External form can look very different even when inner meaning is very similar or the same. Whether Vajrayana or Zen, bodhicitta motivation is key. The view is also similar. Zen does include sutra even if it may be de emphasized in the west. Actually you may find that Western Zen has certain things presented differently to cater to Western tastes and tendencies. Actually I have seen research on differences in beliefs among Zen practitioners in traditionally Buddhist environments vs west and there are differences regarding how enlightened beings bodhisattvas and buddhas are viewed (e.g., what are they, what powers do they have etc) and things like karma and rebirth...

Anyway not to derail to much... My point is that Western Zen may look more far off from Vajrayana than Zen in its more traditional forms (but western zen is also not monolithical)

Another consideration: going from sutra to tantra or general mahayana to vajrayana is a thing... going from vajrayana/tantra to general mahayana/sutra is not as much of a thing.. So no harm in starting with Zen whether you stay in Zen or not.

Also of note... Zen doesn't have to be "just Zen" it also often includes Pure Land

KN

[NoName]

Hi,



I'm drawn to Zen from participating in Zazen in my local Soto Zen Dojo & readings some of the books about Zen. I've received sitting instructions there and attended a sesshin as well. There is also something about Japanese Buddhism in particular that I feel drawn to. I don't know what it is, but I feel more connected to something there, hence I am posting here with the hope that you could offer some guidance.

But I've encountered two issues there:
1) there is no temple in my country
2) this particular direction does not seem to have much in terms of links to many Buddhist texts/ sutras etc.

My husband is a Vajrayana practitioner and he knows many mantras and sutras - and even reading around here I feel a huge disconnect between the vastness of Buddhist traditions and the very minimalist context that I know from my own practice.

A lot of the advice about finding the right tradition for you seems to be about finding a teacher.
I am not sure about how I'd go around finding a teacher as a lay person in an Zen school in the UK, and I am not even sure if the "find the right teacher" thing applies in this case, as from the way it looks in Soto Zen the main thing seems to be about instructions and shared practice. And... I don't know how to balance wanting to learn more about the wider tradition as well.

I am essentially attracted to the simplicty of Zen practice, but at the same time I feel that something is missing in terms of learning about the wider context and fitting into a tradition. I tried exploring Tibetan Buddhism, but I do feel it is not for me - at least not for now. I get a bit lots in it, and I feel that it works with emotion and energy, to use them as tools to help working with the mind. This is not appropriate for me as I have huge emotional/energetic resources that I am not particularly in touch with, I feel it would be dangerous if I used them as support when I am a bit out of touch with them. I am also a bit uncertain about the "finding your teacher" thing, it was obvious that the concept of the Tibetan student/teacher relationship did not work for me - I mistrust the power dynamic inherent in some teacher/student relationships, and tend to crumble when following rigid courses of teaching and I don't want to put myself into a situation where it hinders my practice.

I'd be grateful for some advice what traditions and practices I should research.
thank you

External form can look very different even when inner meaning is very similar or the same. Whether Vajrayana or Zen, bodhicitta motivation is key. The view is also similar. Zen does include sutra even if it may be de emphasized in the west. Actually you may find that Western Zen has certain things presented differently to cater to Western tastes and tendencies. Actually I have seen research on differences in beliefs among Zen practitioners in traditionally Buddhist environments vs west and there are differences regarding how enlightened beings bodhisattvas and buddhas are viewed (e.g., what are they, what powers do they have etc) and things like karma and rebirth...

Anyway not to derail to much... My point is that Western Zen may look more far off from Vajrayana than Zen in its more traditional forms (but western zen is also not monolithical)

Another consideration: going from sutra to tantra or general mahayana to vajrayana is a thing... going from vajrayana/tantra to general mahayana/sutra is not as much of a thing.. So no harm in starting with Zen whether you stay in Zen or not.

Also of note... Zen doesn't have to be "just Zen" it also often includes Pure Land

KN

Thank you!
How would I go about finding a Zen Sangha in the West that does include sutra studies?

[narhwal90]

Lots of sanghas have zoom sessions, I'd suggest attending some- see what they talk about and how, you could always ask. I shopped around a bit, and visited some in person back before covid.

[LastLegend]

[LastLegend]

[LastLegend]

Chan/Zen has its root in Dharma flower sermon...no word nothing to explain anything...because true awakening is beyond language and description...

(Nobody got it!)

Then we have demonstrations...The Master said eyes are horizontal and nose is vertical...then he clapped hands...

(Still nobody got it!)

Then there are explanations...not within thinking mind...not within language...it’s the first thing instantaneous knows before mental processing...automatically recognizes the sound...the most simple mind. That’s it...it’s the original mind...aware mind.

(Still nobody got it)

The last question which the answer was given...but the koanic way should be one needs to answer the question: how do we think of not thinking?

(Still nobody got it)

...When in all doubt find direct introduction from Tibetan Direct lineage/s they seem to have better instruction...then come back to Zen

(No teachers available)

No problem...

The highest the safest and the simplest...sit and always relax mind and body first gently arise a compassion thought towards Avalokitesvara and/or Samantabhadra.

[LastLegend]

I can leave this forum and focus on my practice if anyone is angry and not happy...I am sorry for my ego. But aren’t we supposed to be haughty as Zen practitioners? Just kidding.

[LastLegend]

Dogzchen and Nichiren are pretty haughty why can’t Zen practitioners be? In a good way...hopefully.

[LastLegend]

Chan/Zen is not separate from Bodhisattva post truly awakening responsibility...it’s not separate from Mahayana...it’s still referenced in Chan/Zen texts but it’s not the main focus yet. Chan/Zen is trying to stay away from language and Sutras...but can’t really be separate from Bodhisattva responsibility. Just to be clear on this...Chan/Zen focuses on true awakening first before anything else.

[LastLegend]

However, if Chan/Zen is staying away too much from Sutras’ things like “all dharmas arise from mind” (the opposite of us creating and living with karma is also true)...the same functioning no difference at all...yet one is able to change and transform karma...and one is living with karma...then Chan/Zen isn’t really Mahayana hence vows of Avalokitesvara and Samantabhadra...and countless vows of other Buddhas...common now.

[Johnny Dangerous]

It seems like your impressions mostly come from (Western?) Soto Zen, might want to look into different schools, e.g. Rinzai, also look at Chan sources, Seon, etc. Contrary to what people say, there is plenty of stuff to read in Zen and Chan, if that's your bag.

it was obvious that the concept of the Tibetan student/teacher relationship did not work for me - I mistrust the power dynamic inherent in some teacher/student relationships

Well, there are different variations of this even in with Vajrayana. I hate to tell you though, Zen also is traditionally pretty big on the teacher/student relationship, in fact lots of Buddhism is. It's definitely more prominent in Vajrayana, but really having a close relationship with a Buddhist teacher is something anyone would want, I think.

Anyway, yes, Soto Zen is minimal...that is sort of the point. That's why you need a teacher to just directly show you your own face. Without that going on, it's just mindfulness practice done in costumes and pretty gardens. That's not a bad thing necessarily, but the trappings of Soto don't mean much of anything without actually being introduced to Zen itself..that is the point of them.

[reiun]

Granted: your posts affirm your beliefs/understanding, which lack a teacher's guidance. What effect do your posts create in the mind of the questioner, for which you are directly responsible? Why not use this forum as a learning opportunity instead? It is a wonderful opportunity to learn, in humility.

[SilenceMonkey]

Thank you!
How would I go about finding a Zen Sangha in the West that does include sutra studies?

Dharma Drum lineage has sutra studies. Master Sheng Yen said that study and practice should go hand in hand, both are important. City of 10,000 Buddhas also emphasizes sutras in tandem with Ch'an. Both organizations have great teachings on youtube and excellent books. I especially like the translations from City of 10,000 Buddhas: https://www.buddhisttexts.org/

D.T. Suzuki also wrote some awesome essays on zen, and drew widely from sutras used in the zen tradition.

[LastLegend]

Granted: your posts affirm your beliefs/understanding, which lack a teacher's guidance. What effect do your posts create in the mind of the questioner, for which you are directly responsible? Why not use this forum as a learning opportunity instead? It is a wonderful opportunity to learn, in humility.

Like I said, even if one person here is not happy with me and constantly goes after me...I mean there are plenty of other folks out there besides why me? I’ll leave the forum. All you have to do is say so.

[Johnny Dangerous]

However, if Chan/Zen is staying away too much from Sutras’ things like “all dharmas arise from mind” (the opposite of us creating and living with karma is also true)...the same functioning no difference at all...yet one is able to change and transform karma...and one is living with karma...then Chan/Zen isn’t really Mahayana hence vows of Avalokitesvara and Samantabhadra...and countless vows of other Buddhas...common now.

There are all kinds of Zen writings, in fact some of them even caution against this exact sort of limiting and doctrinaire stance of "what Zen really
is".

Not relying on the conceptual mind is one thing, being willfully ignorant is another.

Chan/Zen isn’t really Mahayana

Ludicrous.

[reiun]

Says it all