Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Forum for discussion of East Asian Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Caoimhghín
Posts: 3419
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Caoimhghín »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:21 pm[...] it is a very interesting text, and having read it in its entirety, it is not very philosophical, though it has its moments, and in fact is principally practice oriented, even defining itself as the definitive sūtra for Buddhist practice.
The original context of this post was in a discussion about Madhyamaka, East Asian Buddhism, medieval sects etc., so in that context I would agree that it's not very "philosophical." The Flower Garland as "principally practice oriented" makes sense certainly. It has the Dasabhumika and the Gundavyuha in it, so those follow that theme. Also the Vairocana-centered Mahayanika Brahmajalasutra is related scriptural material -- very "practice oriented" that one is. Other than some of the ten stages material, and I don't think I'm alone in this on the forum, a lot of this sutra is very "distant," in the sense that it as a practice manual is inaccessible to me. Reading it, I can't imagine how one would "practice" some of the material presented in it. This is doubtless because of the disconnection I have with a living community "practicing the Flower Garland" both in the sense of "upholding the sutra" as would have been the case in some periods of East Asian Buddhist history and in the sense of "practicing a kind of Buddhism deeply related to it" other than the ten stages generally.

As a consequence, I am reading the Flower Garland as "Buddhist literature" rather than a hard "Dharma text," having nothing with which to guide myself through it. I am basically reading it as if it were a bunch of powerful maximalist poetry about how wonderful and inconceivable the Buddha is. The "Manifestation of the Tathagata" section was particularly good, which I read in a separately-published non-Cleary translation. This is not the highest sense in which to read scripture, but it is how I am reading it more or less. I don't actually believe in personally adopting practice directly out of scripture without learning it from an actual living tradition of Buddhism anyways. It is in this sense, as amazing Buddhist literature, that I earlier lauded the scripture as a masterpiece. I can't actually testify to any hard technical Dharma from it though, for numerous reasons. One is that the Cleary translation is IMO completely useless as a Dharma book to the point where it is not functionally a Dharma book at all. I tend to try to read as many translations as I can along with the source material (if I know the language at all), but translations of the Flower Garland are few. Cleary's idiomatic choices like "enlightening beings" for "bodhisattvas" is the least problem. When even normal terms like that are rendered so autodidactically, it becomes less and less useful as "principally practice oriented" material and only useful as translated pseudopoetic material when it comes to technical terms. It has its own kind of dignity, like the strange translations of the 1800s -- high on style and beauty but low on accuracy.

I adapted some of the Cleary translation and the Ven Cheng Chien translation after looking at the Chinese into a little quaint reflection piece: "If you see a river, pray that beings gain entrance into the stream and into the ocean of wisdom. If you see a reservoir, pray that beings swiftly taste the one taste of the Dharma. If you see a pond, pray that beings become great in locution and skillful in preaching. If you see a well, pray that beings draw deep from the well of reason to disclose all dharmas. If you see a spring, pray that beings have inexhaustible roots of virtue. If you see a bridge, pray that beings carry all across to safety, as via a bridge. If you see a waterfall, pray that all beings cleanse the stains of delusion." So sentimental, my eyes water (not really). That isn't the sutra-section though verbatim, just an adaption.

A lot of people don't like the idea of the words "pray" and "prayer" in Buddhism. I've come to think of a prayer more as a wish and a statement of conviction than a petition to a deity. A prayer can be a wish, an intention, a psychic transmission of goodwill. "I pray you make it home safe." "I am sending my goodwill with you that, if it can help at all, you might be safe." Many also do not like to say "worship," but where does "reverence and wonder" end and "worship" begin?

My random musings. Very sophomoric. You (Malcolm) needn't feel pressured to respond. Has anyone else read or tried to read the Flower Garland?
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Malcolm »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:17 am
My random musings. Very sophomoric. You (Malcolm) needn't feel pressured to respond. Has anyone else read or tried to read the Flower Garland?
Clearly’s translation is basically a CF. But, if one knows a primary language it is useful as a framework.

The Avatamsaka is about you,it’s about your own state, not something far away...but then all Buddhist sutras, including those “inferior” words of the Buddha in the shravaka canon are as well.
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by tkp67 »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:17 amA lot of people don't like the idea of the words "pray" and "prayer" in Buddhism. I've come to think of a prayer more as a wish and a statement of conviction than a petition to a deity. A prayer can be a wish, an intention, a psychic transmission of goodwill. "I pray you make it home safe." "I am sending my goodwill with you that, if it can help at all, you might be safe." Many also do not like to say "worship," but where does "reverence and wonder" end and "worship" begin?

My random musings. Very sophomoric.
IMHO sophomoric is harboring a bias that would keep one from seeing the benefits in these practices from a pragmatic perspective.

Prayer for example is not exclusive to the Abrahamic religion. There is however a pervasive condition bias against that religion that has people project meaning into aspects of life that are not categorically Abrahamic.

Jews represent 2% of the population and over 40% of Nobel prizes. Belief is not an attribute that has elicits delusion for delusions sake. It in and of itself is not a sign of capacity. Religion as a basis for belief is not developed for the sake of perverting a populous. They are developmentally relative methods of adaptation for individuals and populations. They possess no inherent self, they cannot impose an inherent self. What ever self is in them is reflective of the mind that valuates them as such.

One of the subtle things about Nichiren's teaching is that the loss of this conditioning to these things is meant to be part of the process. The buddha saw function, cause and effect. He was not conditioned against another's language or belief.

Nichiren goes through these incredibly dissonant comparisons to say offhandedly in a really small statement towards the end of opening of the eyes, to paraphrase, now that you have considered these things yourself as if to say now that you have abolished the dissonance between these teachings for yourself. This would mean (in a perfect scenario) all discord encountered was meant to be external only.

The perfect scenario is required for propagation however although it makes it more pleasant to observers.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:52 pm
One of the subtle things about Nichiren's teaching is that the loss of this conditioning to these things is meant to be part of the process. The buddha saw function, cause and effect. He was not conditioned against another's language or belief.

Nichiren goes through these incredibly dissonant comparisons to say offhandedly in a really small statement towards the end of opening of the eyes, to paraphrase, now that you have considered these things yourself as if to say now that you have abolished the dissonance between these teachings for yourself. This would mean (in a perfect scenario) all discord encountered was meant to be external only.

The perfect scenario is required for propagation however although it makes it more pleasant to observers.
Abandoning views is the goal of the Buddha's teaching, period. It is not a special feature of any Buddhist school.
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:25 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:52 pm
One of the subtle things about Nichiren's teaching is that the loss of this conditioning to these things is meant to be part of the process. The buddha saw function, cause and effect. He was not conditioned against another's language or belief.

Nichiren goes through these incredibly dissonant comparisons to say offhandedly in a really small statement towards the end of opening of the eyes, to paraphrase, now that you have considered these things yourself as if to say now that you have abolished the dissonance between these teachings for yourself. This would mean (in a perfect scenario) all discord encountered was meant to be external only.

The perfect scenario is required for propagation however although it makes it more pleasant to observers.
Abandoning views is the goal of the Buddha's teaching, period. It is not a special feature of any Buddhist school.
It is paramount in the perspective of the LS but most importantly in the Nichiren tradition that this aspect is an active part of propagation not an ultimate destination or one risks the devil of the sixth heaven (self) to arise in its place.

I agree fundamentally universal but there is a big difference to pointing to the dynamics of practice and actually applying them when discussing as much.

Sure many aspects of practice can't just be integrated into ordinary life but some can. Some are critical to preserve the perspective of buddhism to all eyes that have the opportunity to observe it being discussed publicly.

I am not suggesting acquiescence rather unfounded doubt and disparagement. It serves no purpose, has no benefit and does not bring virtue to anyone.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:25 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:52 pm
One of the subtle things about Nichiren's teaching is that the loss of this conditioning to these things is meant to be part of the process. The buddha saw function, cause and effect. He was not conditioned against another's language or belief.

Nichiren goes through these incredibly dissonant comparisons to say offhandedly in a really small statement towards the end of opening of the eyes, to paraphrase, now that you have considered these things yourself as if to say now that you have abolished the dissonance between these teachings for yourself. This would mean (in a perfect scenario) all discord encountered was meant to be external only.

The perfect scenario is required for propagation however although it makes it more pleasant to observers.
Abandoning views is the goal of the Buddha's teaching, period. It is not a special feature of any Buddhist school.
It is paramount in the perspective of the LS but most importantly in the Nichiren tradition that this aspect is an active part of propagation not an ultimate destination or one risks the devil of the sixth heaven (self) to arise in its place.
"Freedom from all views" means that one has realized suchness. There is no danger of devaputra māra here.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14495
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Queequeg »

I've been reading the text for a good 15 years off and on. I can't say that the effort is with any diligence. There have been breaks of several years. Its hard to slog through some of those chapters.

Bob Thurman once read from the Avatamsaka for nearly an entire lecture... maybe the chapter with the pages and pages of praise of the bodhisattva. I can't remember specifically. He was demonstrating the hypnotic? stupefying? effect of reciting the sutra. Imagine "wasting" the time of a bunch of Columbia undergrads like that. Bob is awesome.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:38 pm I've been reading the text for a good 15 years off and on. I can't say that the effort is with any diligence. There have been breaks of several years. Its hard to slog through some of those chapters.

Bob Thurman once read from the Avatamsaka for nearly an entire lecture... maybe the chapter with the pages and pages of praise of the bodhisattva. I can't remember specifically. He was demonstrating the hypnotic? stupefying? effect of reciting the sutra. Imagine "wasting" the time of a bunch of Columbia undergrads like that. Bob is awesome.
It is a beautiful panorama. The chapter on world systems is really incredible.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14495
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Queequeg »

Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:17 am Cleary
I heard this story - I think its about Cleary.

Cleary was ABD at Columbia, I believe, and interviewing for faculty positions. He went to Harvard for interviews and as the usual part of the process after the formal interviews, he was invited out for dinner with the department. Some faculty member asked him some esoteric question and his response was something like, "You're not really interested in the answer, you're just showing off to your colleagues. So, I'm not answering you." Woah. He didn't get the job. I don't think he ever held a faculty position, but instead just moved to Japan and became a full time translator, sitting in his little apartment sipping tea and translating texts all day.

Could totally be apocryphal. Could be about someone else.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:50 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:37 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:25 pm

Abandoning views is the goal of the Buddha's teaching, period. It is not a special feature of any Buddhist school.
It is paramount in the perspective of the LS but most importantly in the Nichiren tradition that this aspect is an active part of propagation not an ultimate destination or one risks the devil of the sixth heaven (self) to arise in its place.
"Freedom from all views" means that one has realized suchness. There is no danger of devaputra māra here.
That doesn't address how others who read that type of division will interpret it. This is one of the subtleties that seems to stand clear for me in the LS and Nichiren's teachings.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:50 pm
tkp67 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:37 pm

It is paramount in the perspective of the LS but most importantly in the Nichiren tradition that this aspect is an active part of propagation not an ultimate destination or one risks the devil of the sixth heaven (self) to arise in its place.
"Freedom from all views" means that one has realized suchness. There is no danger of devaputra māra here.
That doesn't address how others who read that type of division will interpret it. This is one of the subtleties that seems to stand clear for me in the LS and Nichiren's teachings.
That’s merely because you don’t appreciate the subtly of the heart sutra, and on and on. You picked a dharma gate, there are 83,999 others for you to examine.
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:16 am
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:17 am
My random musings. Very sophomoric. You (Malcolm) needn't feel pressured to respond. Has anyone else read or tried to read the Flower Garland?
Clearly’s translation is basically a CF. But, if one knows a primary language it is useful as a framework.

The Avatamsaka is about you,it’s about your own state, not something far away...but then all Buddhist sutras, including those “inferior” words of the Buddha in the shravaka canon are as well.
To see it as that is a misinterpretation of what Nichiren was trying to teach. Since his teaching was meant to be ambiguous on the outside to all an adaptive to the relative causes, conditions and capacities of the practitioner this subtle type of snark is really systematic slander.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:23 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:16 am
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:17 am
My random musings. Very sophomoric. You (Malcolm) needn't feel pressured to respond. Has anyone else read or tried to read the Flower Garland?
Clearly’s translation is basically a CF. But, if one knows a primary language it is useful as a framework.

The Avatamsaka is about you,it’s about your own state, not something far away...but then all Buddhist sutras, including those “inferior” words of the Buddha in the shravaka canon are as well.
To see it as that is a misinterpretation of what Nichiren was trying to teach. Since his teaching was meant to be ambiguous on the outside to all an adaptive to the relative causes, conditions and capacities of the practitioner this subtle type of snark is really systematic slander.
Tkp67, we are not in the Nichiren forum, and my comment was directed at any person who feels that among the words of the Buddha, some are superior and some are inferior. I was not talking about Nichiren at all. So take a breath.
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:18 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:10 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:50 pm

"Freedom from all views" means that one has realized suchness. There is no danger of devaputra māra here.
That doesn't address how others who read that type of division will interpret it. This is one of the subtleties that seems to stand clear for me in the LS and Nichiren's teachings.
That’s merely because you don’t appreciate the subtly of the heart sutra, and on and on. You picked a dharma gate, there are 83,999 others for you to examine.
The inferior remark comes from where Malcolm? Who teaches this? By evoking the gate I choose you draw the tradition I practice into the conversation. Attaching it to that perspective is erroneous because I do not express that view. The gate Nichiren fashioned represents all gates for the facilitation of developing the wisdom imparted by them all as expressed by Shakyamnui. It isn't separate of any of these things.
Malcolm wrote:Tkp67, we are not in the Nichiren forum, and my comment was directed at any person who feels that among the words of the Buddha, some are superior and some are inferior. I was not talking about Nichiren at all. So take a breath.
No but you continue to erroneously reference the tradition and it is a facet of EA buddhism so addressing such things is reasonable and appropriate.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14495
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Queequeg »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:23 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:16 am
Caoimhghín wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:17 am
My random musings. Very sophomoric. You (Malcolm) needn't feel pressured to respond. Has anyone else read or tried to read the Flower Garland?
Clearly’s translation is basically a CF. But, if one knows a primary language it is useful as a framework.

The Avatamsaka is about you,it’s about your own state, not something far away...but then all Buddhist sutras, including those “inferior” words of the Buddha in the shravaka canon are as well.
To see it as that is a misinterpretation of what Nichiren was trying to teach. Since his teaching was meant to be ambiguous on the outside to all an adaptive to the relative causes, conditions and capacities of the practitioner this subtle type of snark is really systematic slander.
There is really very little ambiguity in Nichiren's teachings.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:50 pm By evoking the gate I choose you draw the tradition I practice into the conversation.
No, I am talking about you, specifically, one who constantly pontificates about all Buddhists traditions having studied pretty much none of them in any depth at all.
User avatar
tkp67
Posts: 2905
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 5:42 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by tkp67 »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:04 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:50 pm By evoking the gate I choose you draw the tradition I practice into the conversation.
No, I am talking about you, specifically, one who constantly pontificates about all Buddhists traditions having studied pretty much none of them in any depth at all.
If you want to claim that buddhism is somehow proprietary have at it. If my actions are inappropriate from the perceptive of the teachings or teachers I follow I suggest you correct me.

Vague platitudes that don't reveal fault but simply point to it without distinction while nothing more than unproductive conceptual proliferation is also provisional.

If you are going to claim fire at least prove there is smoke, it makes for a much more interesting use of bandwidth imho.

:anjali:
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Malcolm »

tkp67 wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:13 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 3:04 pm
tkp67 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 2:50 pm By evoking the gate I choose you draw the tradition I practice into the conversation.
No, I am talking about you, specifically, one who constantly pontificates about all Buddhists traditions having studied pretty much none of them in any depth at all.
If you want to claim that buddhism is somehow proprietary have at it. If my actions are inappropriate from the perceptive of the teachings or teachers I follow I suggest you correct me.

Vague platitudes that don't reveal fault but simply point to it without distinction while nothing more than unproductive conceptual proliferation is also provisional.

If you are going to claim fire at least prove there is smoke, it makes for a much more interesting use of bandwidth imho.

:anjali:
I can’t correct you, only you can correct you. But I suggest you might do thus by studying with some teachers outside your tradition for a change.
User avatar
Queequeg
Former staff member
Posts: 14495
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Queequeg »

He ought to start by understanding his own professed path.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Buddhāvataṃsaka Reflections

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 7:09 pm He ought to start by understanding his own professed path.
Well, that is a desiderata, certainly.
Post Reply

Return to “East Asian Buddhism”