Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

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TMT
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Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by TMT »

Im interested in the possibility of learning Mandarin or Japanese, if that would provide opportunity to move to a country where the dharma is more established. What I mean is, if I wanted to ordain and live in a monastary theres almost no options here in america. My concern is that lets say learning Japanese through Rosetta Stone wont help you understand Dharma Terminology used in Japanese.
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Shotenzenjin
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by Shotenzenjin »

TMT wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:02 pm Im interested in the possibility of learning Mandarin or Japanese, if that would provide opportunity to move to a country where the dharma is more established. What I mean is, if I wanted to ordain and live in a monastary theres almost no options here in america. My concern is that lets say learning Japanese through Rosetta Stone wont help you understand Dharma Terminology used in Japanese.
I am learning Japanese to read and write Japanese I'm Deaf going blind so speaking it is a bit out of reach for me but reading and writing isn't slowly but surely.

There is a dire need for translators as there is so much Dharma in Japanese that's not translated. That's a very long term project I'm in the early early stages of learning.

Dharna terms depending on what sect or tradition you follow there are dictionaries of Japanese Dharma terms.that are very useful.

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TMT
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by TMT »

Shotenzenjin wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:22 pm

Thanks for the heads up. I didnt realize there were dictionaries like that. Of course there are ample opportunities to learn and practice here in america. Im interested in the possibilities other countries offer to leave the house holders life.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

Depending on which tradition you follow, there are many opportunities in the United States where you can renounce the world and devote all of your time to Buddhist study and practice, do a three year retreat, study with great teachers.

You can learn conversational Japanese or Chinese and this will help you, if you go overseas, to make friends, many of whom will probably speak some English. Whether you can live there as a monastic would depend on visa restrictions.
But even learning a language takes a lot of time.

The thing not to get fooled by is the idea of the “monk lifestyle”. It looks so serene and beautiful in colorful photo books and websites. I have a Dharma friend who made up new words to the song, “it’s all part of my rock and roll fantasy” but his words were, “...Buddhist monk fantasy”. I don’t remember all the words, just that part. It was funny.

If you are male, I would suggest visiting a theravadin temple that has monks living there. In the Thai traditions, you can be a monk for 3 days, or a week, or a month or whatever you like. Then, see if you like it as much as you think you will. Who knows? You might!

Keep in mind, even monastics have to pay their own way somehow, in terms of money. If you can’t go begging with a bowl, how will you do it?
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by _johnarundel_ »

Hi!

Learning original languages that the writings are written in is very helpful to understanding the true meaning and intention of a text.

Sadly, I cannot read the sutras or the gosho in its original language. But I hope to learn.
"The five characters of Myoho-Renge-Kyo are the core of the Lotus Sutra and the origin of all Buddhas throughout the entire world. Upon seeing the signs that these five characters now must be propagated, I, Nichiren, have set the precedent, today, at the beginning of the Latter Day of the Law."

- Nichiren Daishonin, “Shuju onfurumai-gosho” 種種御振舞御書


https://www.nichirenshoshu.or.jp/eng/daishonin.html
KiwiNFLFan
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by KiwiNFLFan »

TMT wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:02 pm Im interested in the possibility of learning Mandarin or Japanese, if that would provide opportunity to move to a country where the dharma is more established. What I mean is, if I wanted to ordain and live in a monastary theres almost no options here in america. My concern is that lets say learning Japanese through Rosetta Stone wont help you understand Dharma Terminology used in Japanese.
I have studied both Mandarin and Japanese. Learning either one through Rosetta Stone will teach you grammar, which is used in all forms of Japanese and Mandarin. You'll also learn basic vocabulary that is used in everyday conversation and that is necessary to know to speak and understand the language, as well as characters. From there, learning Dharma words is just learning a bunch of new vocabulary, similar to learning, say medical or legal terminology in those languages. You need to know the basics first, though.

If you want to go overseas and ordain (in the Mahayana tradition), Taiwan may be your best bet, though South Korea may work too. Mainland China isn't a good place to practice Buddhism. I'm not sure if Japan actually has monasteries like China, Taiwan or Korea do, because Japanese monks do not receive full pratimoksha ordination like monks in China, Taiwan, Korea and Vietnam do. My understanding is that they are ordained under Bodhisattva precepts, but the point I'm making is that they are not required to be celibate, and many are married and have children (the Taego school in Korea also has married clergy). Therefore, they are typically referred to as "priests" in English rather than "monks", as they do not observe the 250 precepts of the Vinaya. Many temples in Japan are family-run enterprises.

If you want to ordain, it's worth investigating the type of Buddhism you want to practice - Fo Guang Shan, Dharma Drum Mountain, Seon, Cheontae, possibly Rinzai/Soto etc, find the one that resonates the most with you, and then start learning Mandarin/Japanese/Korean. Learning a language is not an easy task, and requires a lot of effort. Feel free to PM me if you want advice learning any or all of these languages (I have studied Korean too, though not as extensively as Mandarin or Japanese).
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by FiveSkandhas »

I have lived in Japan for just about half my life and I could say a lot on this subject but it would take forever. If you have any questions I might be able to answer some of them.

To ordain in Japan differs depending on the sect. It is worth noting that formal priests in Japan usually come from families of priests. For someone who is not the child of a priest to ordain is possible but rare. Priests largely make their living from funeral rites and other activities involving the danka, or community of local families registered with a given temple. Thus it has been hard for "newcomers" to break in because the danka networks are hundreds of years old and already spoken for by each temple. This is changing however because the danka system and what has been called "funiary Buddhism" is rapidly collapsing. Japan is in a period of "experimental Buddhism" where many priests are casting about for new ways to remain relevant.

The most "orthodox" way to become an ordained Japanese priest is to go to a 4-year college associated with the sect you wish to join and major in Buddhist Studies. Needless to say you need a fairly high level of Japanese language proficiency to do this. Then you need to do shugyo, or actual training under a Master. In most cases, priests come from priestly families, as noted, and your Master would be your father. For an outsider to find a Master is difficult but not impossible. Still you need to convince this person to take you on, which is an obligation that most priests are reluctant to take on unless they know you very well. So you would need to form a connection with a priest and cultivate a good relationship with him and his temple before he might possibly agree to take you on as a disciple.

The period and nature of shugyo training varies widely by sect and even by individual priest. It might involve some lengthy period of monastic training away from your specific Master in a large practice temple. At the very least you should expect a number of years of shugyo before formal ordination. Then once university and shugyo are finished you would be a basic priest. Depending on the sect, there may be different "levels" of priesthood that involve further periods of training.

Lastly there is also the issue of how to actually make a living as a priest once you have completed all this study and training. If you are a foreigner there is also the issue of attaining and keeping a visa that allows you to stay in Japan.

This is not the only way to ordain, and there are "shortcuts." IMHO the whole process is very deeply dependent on personal relationships, which take a long time to form.

Also beware of shady "ordination mills" that promise to make you a priest in a few months or whatever. These exist. Since freedom of religion is guaranteed in Japan, anyone can simply put on robes and call themselves a "Buddhist Monk," and a number do so, for various reasons ranging from personal vanity to tax scams and cheapo funeral provisions. There are also "new religions" and out-and-out cults of a quasi-Buddhist flavor. But needless to say, all this is a far cry from training formally with one of the true traditional sects that have been around since medieval times.

I hope this information is helpful.
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TMT
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by TMT »

FiveSkandhas wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:56 pm
I hope this information is helpful.
Thank you. All this is actually very helpful. Im realizing as I look into the possibility of going to any country that the dream and the reality of it are far different.
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by TMT »

KiwiNFLFan wrote: Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:06 pm
TMT wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:02 pm Im interested in the possibility of learning Mandarin or Japanese, if that would provide opportunity to move to a country where the dharma is more established. What I mean is, if I wanted to ordain and live in a monastary theres almost no options here in america. My concern is that lets say learning Japanese through Rosetta Stone wont help you understand Dharma Terminology used in Japanese.
I have studied both Mandarin and Japanese. Learning either one through Rosetta Stone will teach you grammar, which is used in all forms of Japanese and Mandarin. You'll also learn basic vocabulary that is used in everyday conversation and that is necessary to know to speak and understand the language, as well as characters. From there, learning Dharma words is just learning a bunch of new vocabulary, similar to learning, say medical or legal terminology in those languages. You need to know the basics first, though.

If you want to go overseas and ordain (in the Mahayana tradition), Taiwan may be your best bet, though South Korea may work too. Mainland China isn't a good place to practice Buddhism.
Thanks thats great information to have. I guess what intrigued me so much about china, if one went that route was the documentary "Amongst White Clouds". Its a documentary about the hermits in the Zhonang mountains. Its fascinating and it really kind of pulls you when you think about it compared to the drudgery of working the 9 to 5. Of course I know things are never as easy or as dreamy as they seem but alas you cant help but romanticize it.

Could a foriegner even immigrate to china to go become a renunciate? Or is that pretty much impossible? I would imagine they only let professionals and the like come for work but I really dont know anything about it.

Also I appreciate the offer for helping with any questions. I might pm you for some tips if I decide to learn a new language. I follow the Tibetan tradition which is why mandarin was quite interesting because I believe at places like Larung Gar they teach in Mandarin also.
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by Varis »

TMT wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:02 pm Im interested in the possibility of learning Mandarin or Japanese, if that would provide opportunity to move to a country where the dharma is more established. What I mean is, if I wanted to ordain and live in a monastary theres almost no options here in america. My concern is that lets say learning Japanese through Rosetta Stone wont help you understand Dharma Terminology used in Japanese.
You'd probably have to go back to college if you really wanted to go through this route, honestly.
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Varis wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:33 am
TMT wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:02 pm Im interested in the possibility of learning Mandarin or Japanese, if that would provide opportunity to move to a country where the dharma is more established. What I mean is, if I wanted to ordain and live in a monastary theres almost no options here in america. My concern is that lets say learning Japanese through Rosetta Stone wont help you understand Dharma Terminology used in Japanese.
You'd probably have to go back to college if you really wanted to go through this route, honestly.
Actually you could just go to China, Taiwan or Japan and do a language program there. This is much cheaper and a better quality learning experience than you would get in a university. I studied chinese at a university with a very good chinese program, and afterwards I went to learn Chinese in Taiwan at the Chinese Language Division at National Taiwan University. It's much better to be immersed in the culture, even if your classes may or may not be up to your standards. I know for a fact that China and Taiwan have full scholarships if you want to learn chinese or do university. Japan or Korea may as well, I haven't looked into it.

I wouldn't recommend renouncing at Fo Guang Shan... They are a bit evangelical and their Dharma is a bit simplistic and commercialized. Dharma Drum Mountain and Chung Tai Chan Monastery might be better to check out... Or maybe City of Ten Thousand Buddhas in the USA. I know a few westerners who used to be monks in Dharma Drum and Fo Guang Shan. Before making that kind of commitment, it would be good to go check out the organization and learn in their system for a bit, see how it suits you. And also talk with other westerners who were monks in the organization.

If you're looking for a lot of retreat time, I'm not sure you'll find it as a monk in Taiwan... Taiwanese buddhism is very service oriented, and monks and nuns in the monasteries have a lot of duties in the monastery such as cooking, cleaning, managerial tasks, going around the country teaching Dharma. That being said, I believe to live at Dharma Drum Mountain for your whole life as a monk would be very peaceful and serene, and you would definitely grow spiritually in that environment.

I've heard zen in japan might be more hardcore and pure than what you have in chinese traditions... at least at places like Eiheiji and certain places in the mountains. Then again, a lot of zen in Japan completely trashes the precepts... with "monks" drinking and marrying, etc. The Wooden Fish program might give you a good idea of what Ch'an life is like in China, and the people running the program would be able to give you good advice about what it's like to live as a western practitioner in china or Hong Kong.

I lived in Taiwan for a few years learning Chinese and chinese dharma, then I decided to learn Tibetan in Dharamsala... For me it was about finding a master, and I don't feel there are many real Chan masters left in Taiwan. But I'm sure there are a few hiding around the island.

All in all, I think it would take 2 solid years of language intensives to get to the point where you can start to learn Dharma in Chinese or Japanese. At the Lotsawa Rinchen Zangpo Translator Program in Dharamsala, you study Lam Rim in tibetan during your second year. Okay, that's all.

*edit: I will say that learning Dharma languages, learning Dharma in these languages and conversing with practitioners in their language... all of this will bring much deeper insight about the nature of Dharma than will be available to you in English. Many people with years of experience in Dharma can be confused about small things merely due to inaccuracies and differences in translations.
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by Varis »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Fri Feb 05, 2021 2:14 am Actually you could just go to China, Taiwan or Japan and do a language program there. This is much cheaper and a better quality learning experience than you would get in a university. I studied chinese at a university with a very good chinese program, and afterwards I went to learn Chinese in Taiwan at the Chinese Language Division at National Taiwan University. It's much better to be immersed in the culture, even if your classes may or may not be up to your standards. I know for a fact that China and Taiwan have full scholarships if you want to learn chinese or do university. Japan or Korea may as well, I haven't looked into it.

I wouldn't recommend renouncing at Fo Guang Shan... They are a bit evangelical and their Dharma is a bit simplistic and commercialized. Dharma Drum Mountain and Chung Tai Chan Monastery might be better to check out... Or maybe City of Ten Thousand Buddhas in the USA. I know a few westerners who used to be monks in Dharma Drum and Fo Guang Shan. Before making that kind of commitment, it would be good to go check out the organization and learn in their system for a bit, see how it suits you. And also talk with other westerners who were monks in the organization.

If you're looking for a lot of retreat time, I'm not sure you'll find it as a monk in Taiwan... Taiwanese buddhism is very service oriented, and monks and nuns in the monasteries have a lot of duties in the monastery such as cooking, cleaning, managerial tasks, going around the country teaching Dharma. That being said, I believe to live at Dharma Drum Mountain for your whole life as a monk would be very peaceful and serene, and you would definitely grow spiritually in that environment.

I've heard zen in japan might be more hardcore and pure than what you have in chinese traditions... at least at places like Eiheiji and certain places in the mountains. Then again, a lot of zen in Japan completely trashes the precepts... with "monks" drinking and marrying, etc. The Wooden Fish program might give you a good idea of what Ch'an life is like in China, and the people running the program would be able to give you good advice about what it's like to live as a western practitioner in china or Hong Kong.

I lived in Taiwan for a few years learning Chinese and chinese dharma, then I decided to learn Tibetan in Dharamsala... For me it was about finding a master, and I don't feel there are many real Chan masters left in Taiwan. But I'm sure there are a few hiding around the island.

All in all, I think it would take 2 solid years of language intensives to get to the point where you can start to learn Dharma in Chinese or Japanese. At the Lotsawa Rinchen Zangpo Translator Program in Dharamsala, you study Lam Rim in tibetan during your second year. Okay, that's all.

*edit: I will say that learning Dharma languages, learning Dharma in these languages and conversing with practitioners in their language... all of this will bring much deeper insight about the nature of Dharma than will be available to you in English. Many people with years of experience in Dharma can be confused about small things merely due to inaccuracies and differences in translations.
I mean I'd ask OP if they have a college degree in the first place, and secondarily if they're willing to work as an English teacher in Asia because that's basically all the work they'd be able to get. Learning either language at a University in China or Japan sounds easier to me than having to work a job and learn the language at the same time if they can afford it.

Also the vinaya is virtually dead in Japan. There aren't really monks there, there are priests who are allowed to drink, have sex, and so on. The vows that they take are the Bodhisattva vows. A small minority of them do take vows of celibacy, still doesn't make them monks though.
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by SilenceMonkey »

TMT wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:02 pm
So... I would like to write something as a kind of apology for suggesting it might not be a good idea to go to Taiwan as a monk. It's been eating away at me... There a few ways you could make the monk life work there, a number of which I'm sure most people on this forum are unaware of (including me).

There are schools for monastics in Taiwan if you get your chinese good enough (which I think can be done in a couple years' time). Maybe the best school is Yuanguang Foxueyuan. If someone is considering going there, I could put you in touch with a Chan/Geluk monk I know who used to teach Madhyamaka there. He has good english. Or you could probably find Matt Orsborn on Facebook. He was a monk in Taiwan for a number of years and I believe he may have gone there. From what I've heard, one can study in either of two tracks at Yuanguang Foxueyuan: Dharma teaching or meditation. After graduating, I believe one is free to join any temple around the island or even build one's own temple. A number of practitioners go off into the mountains or the woods to practice.

And of course, one could also attend the monastic colleges at Dharma Drum Mountain, Foguang Shan or Chungtai Shan. Just being exposed to the Dharma in the Chinese language will open the vastness of tradition. There are so many texts, recordings and teachers in chinese tradition that are only available if you understand the language. And it's profound! Personally, I think it could be 15-20 times more profound to learn Chinese Dharma in Chinese than in English translation. Virtually none of it has been translated into english.

If you want to learn Dharma in HK, you could reach out to a western monk there named Shi Pu Cheng. He's on facebook and this is his website:
https://www.emptycloud.net/
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by frankie »

SilenceMonkey wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:41 pm
TMT wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:02 pm
There are so many texts, recordings and teachers in chinese tradition that are only available if you understand the language. And it's profound! Personally, I think it could be 15-20 times more profound to learn Chinese Dharma in Chinese than in English translation. Virtually none of it has been translated into english.
With all due and genuine respect to yourself SilenceMonkey...

On one level I can see this is obvious. On the other hand, I would like to caution non Chinese speakers not to be somewhat deflated or disillusioned by this.

There are now many publications by both Sheng Yen and Guo Gu available in English. Not to mention their excellent organisations for experiential training.

We are now awash in the west with more than enough Buddhist texts and commentaries brilliantly translated into english, to fuel our chosen paths to enlightenment. Therefore, unless one has a particular interest in becoming a translator, or for academic study reasons, it is certainly not necessary to learn the original languages the texts were composed in.

Indeed, there is reason to suggest that to do so may well act as a distraction from enlightenment itself and serve to deflect one from the original purpose of the teachings. If one has any doubts about this, hang out with some Buddhist scholars for a while.
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by Zhen Li »

frankie wrote: We are now awash in the west with more than enough Buddhist texts and commentaries brilliantly translated into english, to fuel our chosen paths to enlightenment. Therefore, unless one has a particular interest in becoming a translator, or for academic study reasons, it is certainly not necessary to learn the original languages the texts were composed in.

Indeed, there is reason to suggest that to do so may well act as a distraction from enlightenment itself and serve to deflect one from the original purpose of the teachings. If one has any doubts about this, hang out with some Buddhist scholars for a while.
Maybe the thread needs to be separated, since the OP hasn't logged in since July. But, in case someone reads the thread looking for advice, I'd like to say that if someone has an interest in translating or even just reading Buddhist texts in Chinese and Japanese, they shouldn't be discouraged. It is certainly a very Chan attitude to be opposed to a focus on texts, but frankly the texts that I read coming out of a lot of these organisations leave a lot to be desired and often make things harder for practitioners simply due to word choice.

As for scholars, the point with having academic training is really that one develops critical thinking and the ability to discern more carefully than an amateur translator, and of course to annotate translations and cross-reference appropriately. Scholars are really the people who are able to do accurate translation work (and sometimes they are put to this task by organisations like 84000 and BDK) but the difference between scholars who can translate but don't, and non-scholar monks and nuns who may not have the skills to translate is probably devotion. If someone does not have the interest fueled by genuine refuge, then they may be unlikely to actually engage in translation of a sutra.

I have been thinking about some of the barriers to translation for scholars recently. One of the major ones is that universities generally do not consider published translations, even if peer reviewed (which itself is rare to get for translations), to be a mitigating factor in hiring and promotion. There are a lot of arguments against this state of affairs, and Jan Nattier made an argument on this topic brilliantly here. Another is a cultivated aversion to the idea that translation is worth doing in Buddhist studies, and the source of this aversion is partially an old but influential article by the controversial Paul Griffiths on "Buddhist Hybrid English." I'd like to make a thread on this topic soon.

Maybe going back to the topic at hand. Usually when someone sets out a broad enquiry like this without any details on background and experience in a Buddhist tradition, they have not really thought through ordination or belonging to a tradition long enough to really be able to last in these organisations. I would probably suggest to someone like the OP to spend some time as a lay person in their monasteries and preferably find lots of second opinions. There are very few foreigners who survive in them for long. If one is willing to be utterly humble and let go of one's expectations and former life, and give over to the foreign culture and demands of the organisation, one can probably manage—I only know of a couple people who could do that. Someone mentioned Matt Orsborn. He's an example of someone who went far in one of these organisations and came to the reality. If you have ambitions or expectations, you should expect them to be disrupted at some point. It is easy to dream and make plans, and suppose what would happen, but when you are there on the ground it becomes hard. In Japan, even to get the foot in the door for ordination can take years. In Taiwan, some organisations may let you in but keep you as a novice for years just because every non-Taiwanese/Chinese who comes eventually leaves. Cultivating a realistic lack of expectations is crucial in this matter, it is, after all, the decline of Dharma age.
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by Queequeg »

Zhen Li wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:57 am Maybe the thread needs to be separated, since the OP hasn't logged in since July. But, in case someone reads the thread looking for advice, I'd like to say that if someone has an interest in translating or even just reading Buddhist texts in Chinese and Japanese, they shouldn't be discouraged. It is certainly a very Chan attitude to be opposed to a focus on texts, but frankly the texts that I read coming out of a lot of these organisations leave a lot to be desired and often make things harder for practitioners simply due to word choice.

As for scholars, the point with having academic training is really that one develops critical thinking and the ability to discern more carefully than an amateur translator, and of course to annotate translations and cross-reference appropriately. Scholars are really the people who are able to do accurate translation work (and sometimes they are put to this task by organisations like 84000 and BDK) but the difference between scholars who can translate but don't, and non-scholar monks and nuns who may not have the skills to translate is probably devotion. If someone does not have the interest fueled by genuine refuge, then they may be unlikely to actually engage in translation of a sutra.

I have been thinking about some of the barriers to translation for scholars recently. One of the major ones is that universities generally do not consider published translations, even if peer reviewed (which itself is rare to get for translations), to be a mitigating factor in hiring and promotion. There are a lot of arguments against this state of affairs, and Jan Nattier made an argument on this topic brilliantly here. Another is a cultivated aversion to the idea that translation is worth doing in Buddhist studies, and the source of this aversion is partially an old but influential article by the controversial Paul Griffiths on "Buddhist Hybrid English." I'd like to make a thread on this topic soon.

Maybe going back to the topic at hand. Usually when someone sets out a broad enquiry like this without any details on background and experience in a Buddhist tradition, they have not really thought through ordination or belonging to a tradition long enough to really be able to last in these organisations. I would probably suggest to someone like the OP to spend some time as a lay person in their monasteries and preferably find lots of second opinions. There are very few foreigners who survive in them for long. If one is willing to be utterly humble and let go of one's expectations and former life, and give over to the foreign culture and demands of the organisation, one can probably manage—I only know of a couple people who could do that. Someone mentioned Matt Orsborn. He's an example of someone who went far in one of these organisations and came to the reality. If you have ambitions or expectations, you should expect them to be disrupted at some point. It is easy to dream and make plans, and suppose what would happen, but when you are there on the ground it becomes hard. In Japan, even to get the foot in the door for ordination can take years. In Taiwan, some organisations may let you in but keep you as a novice for years just because every non-Taiwanese/Chinese who comes eventually leaves. Cultivating a realistic lack of expectations is crucial in this matter, it is, after all, the decline of Dharma age.
Great post.

Back when I was flirting with graduate school in Religion - I terminated with an MA - my advisor, who is Buddhist, actually advised me that it was critical to develop language skills because it would enable one to translate, which in turn is a useful skill early in one's career for churning out published translation work. Maybe those publications don't carry as much weight as other scholarly work, but I think they can help with one's reputation and pad the CV, and I would imagine make one an important resource in the field. He also emphasized the importance of being able to read the primary documents - "you don't want to be one of those scholars who relies on translations." My wife is a professor though, and she has said similar to you that translations don't matter. Aside - its interesting to note the example of Cleary who blew off the academy to go sit in his apartment in Kyoto and churn out the translations.

On your last point, this is an important topic.

I would suggest to Westerners who want to pursue monastic training in E. Asia - if you are not fully committed to that path being the rest of your life, don't do it; if you start and quit, you will make it harder for anyone else who comes after you. I don't think Westerners in general appreciate what is done for them when they ask to join one of these sanghas, how much is invested in them, particularly in the reputations of those who advocate for them within the institutions, but also materially, as those supporters often are bound by tradition to also undertake material support. When the trainee fails, so do the people who helped them. Please spend a few years practicing seriously and diligently as a lay person first, closely observing the life of monastics before jumping in, and really think out what it will mean for you to be a monk or nun, 10, 15, 50 years from now. Since you do not have the life long exposure to the life, do not have experience with that life path being integrated into your society, its going to be very hard for you to understand what it really means to become a monastic. You will be largely limited to what you can imagine.

While I think some traditions have managed to accommodate Westerners to a certain degree, some Zen traditions and Jodo Shinshu come to mind, the more conservative ones will require fluency in the language for the simple reason that they are not prepared for the remedial education and extra hand holding that would be required. Its not an easy training. Its like military boot camp in many respects. You have to carry yourself through it. Maybe in decades to come sanghas will develop training for non-native folks, but for now, one will need to do it the way it has been done for centuries - you'll need to learn the languages and seek it out, like Xuanzang, Kukai, Annen, etc.

That said, if any significant monastic tradition is going to arise in the West, its going to require Westerners to fully commit to it and live as monastics in the West, becoming examplars of the possibility. You are going to have to trail blaze and transmute Western culture into a Buddhist expression of Western Culture through your daily life. If you can bring the flow of Dharma to the West in your being, you will bring immeasurable benefit to the world and there are enough of us out here who will support you. It won't be an easy life, but it will be an appreciated life.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by Zhen Li »

Queequeg wrote: Fri Sep 17, 2021 1:56 pm While I think some traditions have managed to accommodate Westerners to a certain degree, some Zen traditions and Jodo Shinshu come to mind, the more conservative ones will require fluency in the language for the simple reason that they are not prepared for the remedial education and extra hand holding that would be required. Its not an easy training. Its like military boot camp in many respects. You have to carry yourself through it. Maybe in decades to come sanghas will develop training for non-native folks, but for now, one will need to do it the way it has been done for centuries - you'll need to learn the languages and seek it out, like Xuanzang, Kukai, Annen, etc.

That said, if any significant monastic tradition is going to arise in the West, its going to require Westerners to fully commit to it and live as monastics in the West, becoming examplars of the possibility. You are going to have to trail blaze and transmute Western culture into a Buddhist expression of Western Culture through your daily life. If you can bring the flow of Dharma to the West in your being, you will bring immeasurable benefit to the world and there are enough of us out here who will support you. It won't be an easy life, but it will be an appreciated life.
Good points. Ordination in Jodo Shinshu is complicated and I have a few different perspectives on this from both a North American and Japanese perspective, having been a Jodo Shinshu practitioner in both places. Zen is different in many respects because the training does require meditation and long periods of retreat. But at the end of the training, the situation is the same—unless there's a temple lined up and ready for you to take up a post, you will not be practicing anywhere. Zen people dream about Eiheiji, but only people with connections and lots of experience can practice there, and I am not sure if any monastics stay there permanently. The reality in Japanese Buddhism is that ordination is a bit closer to higher education in that it gives you the degree (ordination certificate) but if there aren't any posts open for you to apply, you can't do anything with it. To stay at the major monasteries full time takes serious connections and evidence of commitment, sometimes that also means a conventional degree in Buddhist studies from the affiliated university. There will surely be exceptions, but this is typically the case. But in terms of language, yes, Jodo Shinshu for sure is accomodating to non-Japanese speakers.

On your second point, this has been said many times, but what it really needs is a laity who accepts the value and need for dāna. Without dāna there is no fourfold sangha and we'd have to remain nightstand Buddhists.
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

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Zhen Li wrote: Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:12 am But at the end of the training, the situation is the same—unless there's a temple lined up and ready for you to take up a post, you will not be practicing anywhere. Zen people dream about Eiheiji, but only people with connections and lots of experience can practice there, and I am not sure if any monastics stay there permanently. The reality in Japanese Buddhism is that ordination is a bit closer to higher education in that it gives you the degree (ordination certificate) but if there aren't any posts open for you to apply, you can't do anything with it.
The second point I think ties in to the first point in Japan. Obviously, depending on the tradition, the training may or may not involve significant mind training, but more generally, the ordinations are very much like professional certificates that enable you to take posts at a temple. And like the rest of Japanese society, its all about connections.

In Japan, one needs an introduction to do anything. In many circumstances, people simply will not meet with you without an introduction, or at least you will be kept at a distance. This is also why a personal failure affects everyone who supports one and who went out of their way for oneself. In the end, it is critical that one find a good, well connected teacher - they are the one who will open the doors for you to get you access to the good stuff; their personal connection network will become the students network. In addition to language, one will need to learn all of the complicated etiquette. And I think that goes to:
To stay at the major monasteries full time takes serious connections and evidence of commitment
Its the personal connections, and the vouching for one's abilities and commitment that are critical. I don't know well, but in my understanding, the reason why Western Zen folks struggle to penetrate in Japan is because of the lack of these kinds of personal connections. Its usually discussed in terms of Japanese not recognizing titles earned in the West, but underneath, part of the reason titles are not recognized (aside from the outright fraud in some cases) is that the underlying personal connections are not there.
On your second point, this has been said many times, but what it really needs is a laity who accepts the value and need for dāna. Without dāna there is no fourfold sangha and we'd have to remain nightstand Buddhists.
If we go by the teachings, its the sangha and their conduct that inspires the generosity of the laity. In the US, at least, we have a very strong commitment to charity. We have traditionally supported churches and temples. Its in our cultural heritage to do these things. If good monks appear, the laity who supports them will emerge. I'm confident of that. The key is the good monks and nuns.

Part of the problem right now is that Dharma is kind of treated as a commodity, and the people who come to sanghas are coming to it like consumers, and worse, like the path is a video game where one is motivated by achievements and accumulating knowledge. This is understandable - to be a Westerner and be willing to undertake this weird oriental thing means you're a an adventurous and constitutionally different person open to experimentation (and usually with that, kind of a diletante in nature), or, its out of desperation to try and fix something that is acutely wrong in one's life. People don't seem to grasp what it means for this to be an enduring life path that goes beyond immediate personal benefits. So, instead of approaching dharma asking how one can benefit from it, to approach dharma as "this is the teaching on the way things are - our practice is to learn to adjust to it." The latter is not as exciting. Its more like taking medicine that doesn't taste good, or getting up and exercising when one really doesn't want to. I think its why Westerners often start a practice or even a monastic path with enthusiasm, and then quit when the reality of the path dawns on them. This isn't a game of achievement. This is the hard work of fixing oneself and the world without short cuts. (cue the lightning path retort)

:soapbox: sorry. got carried away.

I hope I don't discourage people with that above. Dharma certainly can bring earthly happiness and treat acute existential maladies, but its really much more than that. I hope people who come to Buddhism for the fun, or the immediate alleviation of suffering, or whatever short term aim, become inspired by the taste to stick around for the real work.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

Post by frankie »

Everything will be fine!

The Dharma is only natural law and as such represents primordial common sense. Whether people from whatever country practice efficiently and well enough to attract more to its many entrances to liberation, is immaterial to its existence. There will always be ebbs and flows.

We attracted many teachers to the west exactly because of decadences and destructions in the east. It's often noticed by eastern teachers how much more serious, willing to practice and study intelligently westerners are, compared to the mainly ritualistic and cultural observances passing for Buddhism in the east. That is still the case. The Sun of Dharma is rising in the west as it sets in the east. It will always be like this.

In a historically remarkable short span of time we already have great academic, monastic, cultural and artistic opportunities for those who look to get with a genuine and sincere buddhist program in the west. The means for Enlightenment exists in the USA and all over the world...more so, now, it could be argued than in Japan and China, at any rate. The true seeker need delay no longer by troubling themselves to seek out mystical and secret lairs suited only for the most ardent and special 'chosen ones'. Hell..who needs to be taking on strange foreign names and wearing uncomfortable dresses and skirts anyway?! It may be great for the ego for a while, but in the end only represents another conditioned set of weighty and unnecessary accruements to be let go of.

Probably about time to put away straw-man superiority conceits and comparisons, anyway. The east may continue to take a Dharma dive and we lucky ones in the west, with all its advantages and freedoms, may continue to ride the magnificent crest of the Dharma wave...until it changes (quite naturally) again.

Perhaps it's only incumbent on us to simply have a look around and take advantage of the many opportunities available, right here right now, rather than finding fault where none really exist in the larger Buddhist scheme of things.
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Re: Would learning Mandarin or Japanese allow you to practice in another country?

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Good postings. I think there is something that can be said for your point frankie, but it is not enough that Dharma is natural law when we are limited humans who must work within the confines of the age of the decline of Dharma. Frankly, discipline is going to continue to decline everywhere and while we may see temporary growth in Sanghas (though most, even in the west are declining after a few decades of growth), it will be fleeting. This underlines all the more how important it is for us to settle our birth in the Pure Land now. Do not wait until the moment of death, because by then it may be too late.

In terms of decadancies in the east versus west, frankly it is the same in society in my opinion. As for sanghas, there are still more dedicated practitioners in the east. Contrary to your claim, I would say it will still always be like this, at least for a long time. Chinese Buddhism went to North America for a lot of reasons. For some, it is because of Communist China's crackdown on religion. Xi is now intensifying the anti-Buddhist persecution again (though the media focuses only on Islam), so we might be seeing some Chinese masters leaving again at some point. Otherwise, it is largely to cater to overseas Chinese communities. For Fo Guang Shan, for instance, they paid lipservice to localising for the non-Chinese speaking communities, but never actually followed through—their focus was always and the Chinese community. This is simply because non-Chinese don't know about the importance of dāna, so if we want a robust sangha in the west, we need to increase dāna. As for Japanese sects coming west, there are also a lot of reasons. For Jōdo Shinshū, again, it started like with the Chinese sects, in order to cater to overseas Japanese, but now it is becoming localised because the Japanese communities are shrinking. Zen is a mixed bag, I can't talk about it as well, but zen is still bigger in Japan (is this necessary to even point out?).

In terms of scholarship, unfortunately the scholarship in English is meagre compared to what you can find in Japanese and Chinese. There are just so many more Buddhist universities, but also scholars in national universities, who focus on Buddhism in Asia that it is not even a fair comparison. Also, the kind of scholarship is different. Western scholars are interested more in histories and explaining things on a bigger scale, maybe they are still trying to grapple with the thing that is Buddhism, whereas in Asia it is all around one so this is not so common—scholars in Asia tend to focus more on the minutiae of a particular text they are focusing on. Also, western scholarship tends to be stronger in ethnography and anthropology. So, they are not so comparable. If we are talking about Buddhist-led or seminary style education, Asia still leads the way. The sheer volume of scholarly material in Chinese and Japanese (we are talking entire floors of libraries) just cannot compare.

This is not about finding fault, just a reality check. We can practice in the west but it's a Dharma borderland. It's nice to be optimistic, but we should have a clear view of what things are like. If we secure our birth in the Pure Land, we don't need to worry about samsaric realms.
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