History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

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Javierfv1212
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History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Javierfv1212 »

I was wondering what are some good sources for the history of the Gelug school in general (not just of individual figures like the Dalai Lamas). Particularly I am interested in the later periods (after the great 5th) since there doesn't seem to be a lot of sources on this. Who were the greatest and most influential scholars and practitioners? What were the big events?

Also, a related question I have concerns the Rime movement and Gelug figures. So far I can only find one Gelug figure that was associated with the nonsectarian study and practice movement, Minyak Kunzang Sonam. Of course, there is also Shabkar, but he is before the rise of Rime proper. Were there others?
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:35 pm Were there others?
I had a Gelug/Nyingma teacher. He was very nonsectarian. But he wasn’t a public figure.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
mutsuk
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by mutsuk »

Another famed Geluk figure associated with the Ris-med movement was Dragkar Tulku Lobzang Pelden Tendzin Nyendrak (Brag dkar sprul sku Blo bzang dpal ldan bstan 'dzin snyan grags, 1866-1928). He was much into Bon Dzogchen.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by passel »

Roger Jackson’s recent book, Mind Seeing Mind is specifically about the Gelug Mahamudra, but it’s full of stuff that I bet would be interesting to you in this context.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
Malcolm
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Malcolm »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:35 pm I was wondering what are some good sources for the history of the Gelug school in general (not just of individual figures like the Dalai Lamas). Particularly I am interested in the later periods (after the great 5th) since there doesn't seem to be a lot of sources on this. Who were the greatest and most influential scholars and practitioners? What were the big events?

Also, a related question I have concerns the Rime movement and Gelug figures. So far I can only find one Gelug figure that was associated with the nonsectarian study and practice movement, Minyak Kunzang Sonam. Of course, there is also Shabkar, but he is before the rise of Rime proper. Were there others?
Tsongkhapa was a nonsectarian master. And there are many others in the history of the Geluk schools. Indeed, in Geluk, rivalry amongst different colleges was far more intense than extra-sectarian impulses.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by zerwe »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:23 pm
Javierfv1212 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:35 pm I was wondering what are some good sources for the history of the Gelug school in general (not just of individual figures like the Dalai Lamas). Particularly I am interested in the later periods (after the great 5th) since there doesn't seem to be a lot of sources on this. Who were the greatest and most influential scholars and practitioners? What were the big events?

Also, a related question I have concerns the Rime movement and Gelug figures. So far I can only find one Gelug figure that was associated with the nonsectarian study and practice movement, Minyak Kunzang Sonam. Of course, there is also Shabkar, but he is before the rise of Rime proper. Were there others?
Indeed, in Geluk, rivalry amongst different colleges was far more intense than extra-sectarian impulses.
With all respect, I am not sure that I can believe my eyes.

Shaun :namaste:
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by PeterC »

Javierfv1212 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:35 pm Also, a related question I have concerns the Rime movement and Gelug figures. So far I can only find one Gelug figure that was associated with the nonsectarian study and practice movement, Minyak Kunzang Sonam. Of course, there is also Shabkar, but he is before the rise of Rime proper. Were there others?
There's always Gendun Chopel, though I'm sure the Gelugpas won't claim him as one of theirs...
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by jmlee369 »

zerwe wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:07 am
Malcolm wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:23 pm
Javierfv1212 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:35 pm I was wondering what are some good sources for the history of the Gelug school in general (not just of individual figures like the Dalai Lamas). Particularly I am interested in the later periods (after the great 5th) since there doesn't seem to be a lot of sources on this. Who were the greatest and most influential scholars and practitioners? What were the big events?

Also, a related question I have concerns the Rime movement and Gelug figures. So far I can only find one Gelug figure that was associated with the nonsectarian study and practice movement, Minyak Kunzang Sonam. Of course, there is also Shabkar, but he is before the rise of Rime proper. Were there others?
Indeed, in Geluk, rivalry amongst different colleges was far more intense than extra-sectarian impulses.
With all respect, I am not sure that I can believe my eyes.

Shaun :namaste:
I think it was Geshe Georges Dreyfus who mentioned that one of his teachers would spit at the mention of the rival college's textbooks. His Holiness the Dalai Lama also stated:
Now, as a Lama from Loseling college Ling Rinpoche was very partial to the scriptures written by Panchen Sonam Drakpa. Whereas Gen Nyima used to prefer the texts of Kunkhyen Lama. He would repeatedly say, “O, this text by Jamyang Shepa is so good.” Yongzin Rinpoche would never say such a thing. (Laughs) For example, (Jamyang Shepa) always says that the ‘truth of cessation’ is not emptiness, it is ultimate truth, but not emptiness. Yongzin Rinpoche would emphasise that this is not possible. Whatever the case, he would not give even a little on the views expressed by Panchen Sonam Dragpa. He considered them to be like ultimate truth.

As for the OP, although I am not sure whether he was consciously part of the Rime movement, Lhatsun Dorje Chang (of Sera Jey monastery, Zhungpa khangtsen) fits the time period (birth year unknown but passed in old age in 1959) and was renowned as both a Nyingma and Gelug lama. He also held Sakya transmissions as Dagpo Rinpoche mentions receiving the oral transmission for the 13 Golden Dharmas from him.

Although I don't think he would have adopted the Rime label, one of my teachers although being firmly rooted in the Gelug tradition, considered Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche and Sakya Dagchen Rinpoche as his gurus, and personally received the Drikung Phowa Chenmo teachings from Kyabgon Chetsang Rinpoche and encouraged all of his students to do so as well. This same teacher was extremely devoted to the two tutors, and never gave up on his hopes that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche's tulku would be reconciled with His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Even though his primary (and several other) guru was a practitioner of the gyalpo protector, he himself never adopted the practice.

Speaking of Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, despite some people's perceptions and the Yellow Book, he was not merely an extreme sectarian. Looking into his autobiography, the Kagyu ngagpas of Chatreng requested teachings from him, and he conferred the initiation of the peaceful and wrathful aspects of Guru Rinpoche according to the lineage of the Second Dalai Lama (and I would hazard a guess that this was Gendun Gyatso's Nyingma family transmission). While praying before the statue of "the second Buddha" Guru Padmasambhava in Sheldrak cave, Trijang Rinpoche seems to have had some kind of vision which led to an experience of emptiness that he attributed to the blessings of Guru Rinpoche (perhaps my lack of familiarity with Tibetan literary conventions is leading me to a too literal interpretation of this account). He refers readers to a work by Jamyang Khyentse Wangpo. He reports that Gangkar Rinpoche saw him as Padmasambhava in a vision. He maintained the terma practice of Kyergangpa's Hayagriva and transmitted it to thousands of disciples. He was close friends with His Holiness the Karmapa (similar to how Kyabje Dudjom Rinpoche was friends with, visited, and gave end of life advice for Lama Thubten Yeshe, despite the latter's lifelong reliance on the gyalpo).

As for the major figures of later Gelug history, there's too many to list, but just from what I know, the Panchen Lamas such as Losang Yeshe and Palden Yeshe, the 7th Dalai Lama, Changkya Rolpai Dorje, Purchok tulkus, the Third Tu'ukwan Losang Chokyi Nyima, Yongdzin Yeshe Gyaltsen (and perhaps the Tsechokling, Kundeling, Tengyeling, Tsemonling lamas in general), Longdol Lama, the Jamyang Sheypas.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Brunelleschi »

PeterC wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:14 am
Javierfv1212 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:35 pm Also, a related question I have concerns the Rime movement and Gelug figures. So far I can only find one Gelug figure that was associated with the nonsectarian study and practice movement, Minyak Kunzang Sonam. Of course, there is also Shabkar, but he is before the rise of Rime proper. Were there others?
There's always Gendun Chopel, though I'm sure the Gelugpas won't claim him as one of theirs...
He was an interesting figure but apparently he was an avid visitor of brothels. Also the fact that D*nald L*pez, that famous hater of all things good and true, seems fond of him makes me a bit skeptical.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Brunelleschi wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:33 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:14 am
Javierfv1212 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:35 pm Also, a related question I have concerns the Rime movement and Gelug figures. So far I can only find one Gelug figure that was associated with the nonsectarian study and practice movement, Minyak Kunzang Sonam. Of course, there is also Shabkar, but he is before the rise of Rime proper. Were there others?
There's always Gendun Chopel, though I'm sure the Gelugpas won't claim him as one of theirs...
He was an interesting figure but apparently he was an avid visitor of brothels. Also the fact that D*nald L*pez, that famous hater of all things good and true, seems fond of him makes me a bit skeptical.
What is the beef with D*nald L*pez?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.

- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Malcolm »

Brunelleschi wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:33 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:14 am
Javierfv1212 wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 7:35 pm Also, a related question I have concerns the Rime movement and Gelug figures. So far I can only find one Gelug figure that was associated with the nonsectarian study and practice movement, Minyak Kunzang Sonam. Of course, there is also Shabkar, but he is before the rise of Rime proper. Were there others?
There's always Gendun Chopel, though I'm sure the Gelugpas won't claim him as one of theirs...
He was an interesting figure but apparently he was an avid visitor of brothels. Also the fact that D*nald L*pez, that famous hater of all things good and true, seems fond of him makes me a bit skeptical.
I personally enjoyed hanging out with Don Lopez. He is quite bright and far more open-minded then he gets credit for. And as for Ganden Chophel, he was a very interesting character indeed, and his mastery of Madhyamaka is very evident in his Ornament of Nagarjuna’s Intent.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Josef »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:42 pm
Brunelleschi wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:33 pm
PeterC wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:14 am

There's always Gendun Chopel, though I'm sure the Gelugpas won't claim him as one of theirs...
He was an interesting figure but apparently he was an avid visitor of brothels. Also the fact that D*nald L*pez, that famous hater of all things good and true, seems fond of him makes me a bit skeptical.
What is the beef with D*nald L*pez?
Lopez was one of my professors in College. He was always kind, interesting, and knowledgable.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Ayu »

FYI, I moved this topic from the subforum Tibetan Buddhism to the sub-subforum Gelug.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Brunelleschi »

Könchok Thrinley wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:42 pmWhat is the beef with D*nald L*pez?
I'm joking, since the topic was Gelug and his famous work regarding Tibet was critique was of the ruling class of Tibet (at that time the Gelug), his critique of Thurman, etcetera.

Also, I came to know about Gendun Chopel through Lopez's book about Chopel.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by Javierfv1212 »

Thanks for the tips fellas, much to look into for sure.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
A person who is ignorant of this may seek externally,
but how is it possible to find oneself through seeking anywhere other than in oneself?
Someone who seeks their own nature externally is like a fool who, giving a performance in the middle of a crowd, forgets who he is and then seeks everywhere else to find himself.
— Padmasambhava

Visit my site: https://sites.google.com/view/abhayajana/
jmlee369
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by jmlee369 »

I missed out Ngulchu Dharmabhadra, a major 19th century figure.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by nyonchung »

jmlee369 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:18 am I missed out Ngulchu Dharmabhadra, a major 19th century figure.
back to an earlier period, Gendün Gyatso (1475-1542), retrospectively the second Dalai Lama, uses the word ris med about his personnal approach in his autobiography (possibly now available in English)

A key Gelugpa figure contemporary of the rimé movemant was Thoyön Yeshé Döndrub Tenpa'i Gyeltsen (1792-1855), born in a powerful Mongol family decsending from Jinggis Khan (his mother was probably a Manchu imperial princess) , he got married, became a military official and at age 23, he quite casually attented a lam rim teaching and this abruply changed his life
He renounced the world , abandoned his family - with the quite exceptional permission of emperor Jiaqing (r. 1796-1821) - and moved to Central Tibet where he entered Drepung Gomang, became quickly a noted scholar, meditated, and spent the rest of his life collecting teachings from masters of all schools (including Ngülchu Dharmabhadra, Karmapa 14 Thegchog Dorjé (1798-1869), Pema Düdül Wangchug (1792-1853), Sakya Trichen 34) - his main goal was to received all wang, jenang, lung as in Butön's record of received gsan yig), he succeded - references below
He refused all honours and was highly critical of the ways of his time and never used his powerful connections of his early life, he even refused the abbotship of Gomang and Ganden.

to quote (p. 458 - Yeshé Döndrub is here clearly refering to the Changkya and Thuken reincarnate lamas):
"in the times of the Buddha and of Tsongkhapa, lamas' names were rather short but their merits rather long, nowadays lamas have rather long names but are short on merits"
"before, lamas' statues had a sword and a text as hand attributes, nowadays, lamas carry a pekinese dog and a snuff bottle"
"even a yellow-hatted lama can end up in hell"
he was highly critical of the accumulation of riches by lamas, lack of concern for poor monks, and was giving wang with a small earth vase saying "the golden and silver initiation vases of Tibetan masters carry no blessings, the earthen pots of India siddhas were full of them"

apparently nowhere to be seen in "Treasury of Lives", maybe worth to do something, he is a really inspiring figure

Back to rimé, his endeavours are quite parallel to those of Jamyang Khyentsé Chökyi Wangpo (1820-1892)
Jamyang Khyentsé met him somewhere around 1850 in Lhasa and saw him as Maitreya in person (he received seng gdong ma, 'jig byed)

For people interested in the Shangpa tradition, we owe to Yeshé Döndrub and Jamyang Khyentsé the continuity of the transmission of a very special form of the Six-armed Mahakala - Shangs chos, kha (vol. 2), p. 709, snying bzhugs bla ma'i rnal 'byor

For works
- see BDRC - P280- ye shes don grub bstan pa'i rgyal mtshan
there is a long autobiography - W13117 - ye shes don grub kyi rnam thar by his disciple tho yon 'jam dbyangs phrin las - see BDRC -P1631
- but the 9 voulumes are not scanned yet
- the short biography is in 'Bras spungs sgo mang chos 'byung, vol. 2, pp. 455-463 - BDRC - W28810

- dkyil 'khor brgya rtsa nor bu phreng ba - 3 vol (on4) - BDRC - W23909
- in 6 volumes = W1KG10720 (compiled by Jamyang Trinlé)
I had no time yet to check more details in them about the lineages of transmission received (the short biography gives only a limited list of his masters)

And one should never forget the luminous figure of Zhalu Ribug Losel Tenkyong (1804-1864), technically a zhalupa, but more often described as à gelugpa (disciple of Ngülchgu Dharmabhadra), one of the root teachers of Jamyang Khyentsé of Lodrö Thayé
Both of them described him as an actual mahasiddha
seems also absent from "Treasury of Lives", what a shame
He is also the author of a very useful history of Zhalu monastery

all the best from smyon chung
Last edited by nyonchung on Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Are you looking for Rime Geluk masters alive and teaching today?

If so, I am also curious about this. I think it may be more common now, with the influence of HH Dalai Lama.
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Re: History of Gelug and Rime Gelugpas

Post by tobes »

nyonchung wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 2:04 am
jmlee369 wrote: Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:18 am I missed out Ngulchu Dharmabhadra, a major 19th century figure.
back to an earlier period, Gendün Gyatso (1475-1542), retrospectively the second Dalai Lama, uses the word ris med about his personnal approach in his autobiography (possibly now available in English)

A key Gelugpa figure contemporary of the rimé movemant was Thoyön Yeshé Döndrub Tenpa'i Gyeltsen (1792-1855), born in a powerful Mongol family decsending from Jinggis Khan (his mother was probably a Manchu imperial princess) , he got married, became a military official and at age 23, he quite casually attented a lam rim teaching and this abruply changed his life
He renounced the world , abandoned his family - with the quite exceptional permission of emperor Jiaqing (r. 1796-1821) - and moved to Central Tibet where he entered Drepung Gomang, became quickly a noted scholar, meditated, and spent the rest of his life collecting teachings from masters of all schools (including Ngülchu Dharmabhadra, Karmapa 14 Thegchog Dorjé (1798-1869), Pema Düdül Wangchug (1792-1853), Sakya Trichen 34) - his main goal was to received all wang, jenang, lung as in Butön's record of received gsan yig), he succeded - references below
He refused all honours and was highly critical of the ways of his time and never used his powerful connections of his early life, he even refused the abbotship of Gomang and Ganden.

to quote (p. 458 - Yeshé Döndrub is here clearly refering to the Changkya and Thuken reincarnate lamas):
"in the times of the Buddha and of Tsongkhapa, lamas' names were rather short but their merits rather long, nowadays lamas have rather long names but are short on merits"
"before, lamas' statues had a sword and a text as hand attributes, nowadays, lamas carry a pekinese dog and a snuff bottle"
"even a yellow-hatted lama can end up in hell"
he was highly critical of the accumulation of riches by lamas, lack of concern for poor monks, and was giving wang with a small earth vase saying "the golden and silver initiation vases of Tibetan masters carry no blessings, the earthen pots of India siddhas were full of them"

apparently nowhere to be seen in "Treasury of Lives", maybe worth to do something, he is a really inspiring figure

Back to rimé, his endeavours are quite parallel to those of Jamyang Khyentsé Chökyi Wangpo (1820-1892)
Jamyang Khyentsé met him somewhere around 1850 in Lhasa and saw him as Maitreya in person (he received seng gdong ma, 'jig byed)

For people interested in the Shangpa tradition, we owe to Yeshé Döndrub and Jamyang Khyentsé the continuity of the transmission of a very special form of the Six-armed Mahakala - Shangs chos, kha (vol. 2), p. 709, snying bzhugs bla ma'i rnal 'byor

For works
- see BDRC - P280- ye shes don grub bstan pa'i rgyal mtshan
there is a long autobiography - W13117 - ye shes don grub kyi rnam thar by his disciple tho yon 'jam dbyangs phrin las - see BDRC -P1631
- but the 9 voulumes are not scanned yet
- the short biography is in 'Bras spungs sgo mang chos 'byung, vol. 2, pp. 455-463 - BDRC - W28810

- dkyil 'khor brgya rtsa nor bu phreng ba - 3 vol (on4) - BDRC - W23909
- in 6 volumes = W1KG10720 (compiled by Jamyang Trinlé)
I had no time yet to check more details in them about the lineages of transmission received (the short biography gives only a limited list of his masters)

And one should never forget the luminous figure of Zhalu Ribug Losel Tenkyong (1804-1864), technically a zhalupa, but more often described as à gelugpa (disciple of Ngülchgu Dharmabhadra), one of the root teachers of Jamyang Khyentsé of Lodrö Thayé
Both of them described him as an actual mahasiddha
seems also absent from "Treasury of Lives", what a shame
He is also the author of a very useful history of Zhalu monastery

all the best from smyon chung
Wow, that is really cool. Great post. :good:
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