His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Volan
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His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Volan »

Commentary on the Awakening Mind - Second Day November 6, 2020
https://www.dalailama.com/news/2020/com ... second-day
His Holiness was asked about finding a guru and replied that it is not necessary to receive instruction from a living
teacher to practise Buddhism. “What is important,” he said, “is to read appropriate books. If Shantideva’s ‘Guide
to the Bodhisattva’s Way of Life’ is available in Russian, read that. It reveals the faults of the self-cherishing attitude
and the advantages of cherishing others. Treat this book as your guru.

This statement is somewhat revolutionary to the Tibetan Buddhism - traditionally one is supposed to receive oral
transmissions and commentaries. The result of this is that in Tengyur one can find lots of Indian commentaries and
Tibetans themselves don`t know anything about them - if asked, they will answer that they don`t have a
transmission, it`s not a part of their curriculum...

Also this is an interesting response to the recent topics on Dharmawheel like "Follow a school over a teacher?".
Malcolm
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Malcolm »

Volan wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:49 pm
This statement is somewhat revolutionary to the Tibetan Buddhism - traditionally one is supposed to receive oral
transmissions and commentaries.
Not really. Vajrayāna topics yes, sūtrayāna, not so much.
The result of this is that in Tengyur one can find lots of Indian commentaries and
Tibetans themselves don`t know anything about them - if asked, they will answer that they don`t have a
transmission, it`s not a part of their curriculum...
Most of the Tengyur has no reading transmission.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by pemachophel »

Volan,

H.H. said "practice Buddhism" and then He mentioned Shantideva's Bodhicaryavatara, an exoteric Mahayana text. He didn't say esoteric Vajrayana Buddhism. For Vajrayana, one must absolutely receive the teachings from a Teacher. So no contradiction. Just because someone is Tibetan and a Buddhist doesn't mean they are necessarily talking about Vajrayana. Tibetans follow all three levels of Buddhism: Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana. What a Tibetan may say about one yana does not necessarily apply to the other yanas. The term "Tibetan Buddhism" is extremely imprecise, and in Tibetan it doesn't exist as far as I know.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Budai »

Meditation can produce wonderful states of mind that can connect one to the subjects and states of consciousness talked about in Buddhist literature. I read many Dalai Lama books, and I didn’t have a single doubt that He was fully Realized and a Perfect Teacher while reading His books. By such Grace, I was able to encounter great Buddhists that Emanated His Compassion, because I wanted Him to be my Teacher, and that came from the book. Words are real, spoken or written down, or recorded or transmitted by video, and we should respect our Teachers by whichever form they come to us by, and that can be in the form of a book, as long as it is Authorized by them, containing their words and instructions. Om Mani Padme Hum.
Volan
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Volan »

I have to say that Shantideva is not exclusively a Sutrayana teacher - he is definitely a Vajrayana practitioner.

He gives an advice on use of some dharanis in the "protecting the body" 6th chapter of Siksa-samuccaya.
Amongst many mantras that are presented in that chapter there are Achala`s and Marichi`s, whose mantra is advised as a mean against robbers and alike.

In the "purification" 8th chapter there is an advice on 100 syllable mantra of Vajrasattva and Cundi`s dharani.
And there are few more mantras in 4th and 19th chapters. Although most of the text is similar to Bodhicaryavatara - more than 90% of it is Sutrayana.

I am not going to invent something new here - transmission is required.
Volan
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Volan »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:07 pm
Volan wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:49 pm
This statement is somewhat revolutionary to the Tibetan Buddhism - traditionally one is supposed to receive oral
transmissions and commentaries.
Not really. Vajrayāna topics yes, sūtrayāna, not so much.
Three types of Prajna: wisdom acquired through listening (study, teaching) (srutamayiprajna), wisdom acquired
through reflection (cintamayiprajna) and wisdon acquired through [rnental] cultivation (bhavanamayiprajna).

You can see that it is listening, not reading and shruta is common with shrotra, which is the ear organ. Shravaka - listener.

Even for the Sutrayana teachings there are lists of lineage gurus, i have seen such list for a Gelugpa`s Abhisamayalamkara lineage.
The result of this is that in Tengyur one can find lots of Indian commentaries and
Tibetans themselves don`t know anything about them - if asked, they will answer that they don`t have a
transmission, it`s not a part of their curriculum...
Most of the Tengyur has no reading transmission.

And there are some very interesting texts, for example, Vasubandhu's Saptapadartha tika commentary on the
Diamond Prajnaparamita sutra translated by gZon nu dpal (1392-1481), which is one of the latest translations in
Tibet. How sad that it is just some antique thing in the canon - no study, no tradition.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Malcolm »

Volan wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 1:56 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:07 pm
Volan wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:49 pm
This statement is somewhat revolutionary to the Tibetan Buddhism - traditionally one is supposed to receive oral
transmissions and commentaries.
Not really. Vajrayāna topics yes, sūtrayāna, not so much.
Three types of Prajna: wisdom acquired through listening (study, teaching) (srutamayiprajna), wisdom acquired
through reflection (cintamayiprajna) and wisdon acquired through [rnental] cultivation (bhavanamayiprajna).

You can see that it is listening, not reading and shruta is common with shrotra, which is the ear organ. Shravaka - listener.

Even for the Sutrayana teachings there are lists of lineage gurus, i have seen such list for a Gelugpa`s Abhisamayalamkara lineage.
I am in agreement with you that in general dharma is an aural tradition. However, this does not mean that one is required to have received a lung for such texts the MMK, Abhidharmakośa, etc. When lungs for these things are given it is more a formality.
How sad that it is just some antique thing in the canon - no study, no tradition.
People study it.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Malcolm »

Volan wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 1:16 pm I have to say that Shantideva is not exclusively a Sutrayana teacher - he is definitely a Vajrayana practitioner.
Maybe, maybe not. But everything in the Compendium of Training is kriya tantra.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Chenrezig »

One is born knowing all there is to be known and then educated by others to disbelieve and thereby the child must resist and reject all teachers and follow his own doctrines and path.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Sādhaka »

Chenrezig wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:36 pm One is born knowing all there is to be known and then educated by others to disbelieve and thereby the child must resist and reject all teachers and follow his own doctrines and path.

That’s quite an bold claim.

I mean sure, one is born pure, and is likely born with many good intuitions that are lost over the years as one is gradually indoctrinated by society & various institutions, etc.

However if one were born knowing all there is to be known, then one would be a irreversible Buddha already, and it would not be possible to forget the things that one already knows.

Therefore I disagree with your above assertion.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Tata1 »

Chenrezig wrote: Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:36 pm One is born knowing all there is to be known and then educated by others to disbelieve and thereby the child must resist and reject all teachers and follow his own doctrines and path.
One is born due to ignorance
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Chenrezig »

It was written: "One is born knowing all that is to be known. Not all are born knowing all that is to be known."
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by lelopa »

Chenrezig wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:39 am It was written: "One is born knowing all that is to be known. Not all are born knowing all that is to be known."
Who wrote this where?
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Aryjna »

Chenrezig wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:39 am It was written: "One is born knowing all that is to be known. Not all are born knowing all that is to be known."
It was also written: "born that known be all to is is One knowing. knowing known born Not all to all is be are that.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by heart »

Chenrezig wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:39 am It was written: "One is born knowing all that is to be known. Not all are born knowing all that is to be known."
“Everybody’s gotta learn, nobody’s born knowing.”

Haper Lee

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Chenrezig »

Yes! Again. His Holiness is correct! " One can follow a book, not a teacher." Yes. A book or many books combined with travel and meeting extraordinary men without being led by any teacher one becomes one's own teacher.

A book allows more than a teacher can recite and offers one the ability to seek and find without following an endless recitation of book found facts but skip to that which is pertinent. Some, however, need a teacher not having the ability to seek knowledge on their own or when books are not available. .

An excellent example is with Milarepa , first when seeking dark magic from two different gurus (sorcerer/magi masters) he had to pay tribute or forced labor before the first lesson and then the greater one for enlightenment being Marpa Keys in Milarepa was forced for years to carry stones up and down the mountain for no reason other than Mapa being unwilling to reveal what lessonsin Milarepa came to learn. "Why should I reveal to you all I know after all the suffering and time it took me to learn of these things?" claims Marpa to Milarepa.

What an ordeal when finally Marpa reveals the simplistic information that he knows from books he read in his laborious travels Milarepa finds he already knew from birth and retreats to a remote mountain cave on My. Kailash away from all human existence and unwilling to allow anyone access

It is often repeated: a school or teacher is only as good as the books read as the student is often more knowledgeable than either the school or the teacher and is able to teach the teacher.

It also parallels the fact that:
A servant is his best king whereas a king is his best, servant.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Aryjna »

Chenrezig wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:34 am Yes! Again. His Holiness is correct! " One can follow a book, not a teacher." Yes. A book or many books combined with travel and meeting extraordinary men without being led by any teacher one becomes one's own teacher.

A book allows more than a teacher can recite and offers one the ability to seek and find without following an endless recitation of book found facts but skip to that which is pertinent. Some, however, need a teacher not having the ability to seek knowledge on their own or when books are not available. .

An excellent example is with Milarepa , first when seeking dark magic from two different gurus (sorcerer/magi masters) he had to pay tribute or forced labor before the first lesson and then the greater one for enlightenment being Marpa Keys in Milarepa was forced for years to carry stones up and down the mountain for no reason other than Mapa being unwilling to reveal what lessonsin Milarepa came to learn. "Why should I reveal to you all I know after all the suffering and time it took me to learn of these things?" claims Marpa to Milarepa.

What an ordeal when finally Marpa reveals the simplistic information that he knows from books he read in his laborious travels Milarepa finds he already knew from birth and retreats to a remote mountain cave on My. Kailash away from all human existence and unwilling to allow anyone access

It is often repeated: a school or teacher is only as good as the books read as the student is often more knowledgeable than either the school or the teacher and is able to teach the teacher.

It also parallels the fact that:
A servant is his best king whereas a king is his best, servant.
There is not one word in what you said that is correct. You are constantly using anonymous platitudes as if they are authoritative, as well as plainly wrong information, like your account of Milarepa's story.
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by conebeckham »

Chenrezig wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:34 am Yes! Again. His Holiness is correct! " One can follow a book, not a teacher." Yes. A book or many books combined with travel and meeting extraordinary men without being led by any teacher one becomes one's own teacher.

A book allows more than a teacher can recite and offers one the ability to seek and find without following an endless recitation of book found facts but skip to that which is pertinent. Some, however, need a teacher not having the ability to seek knowledge on their own or when books are not available. .
Books are nice, but you cannot practice Vajrayana Buddhism without an empowerment. No Empowerment without a teacher. Tibetan Buddhism is all Vajrayana,
An excellent example is with Milarepa , first when seeking dark magic from two different gurus (sorcerer/magi masters) he had to pay tribute or forced labor before the first lesson and then the greater one for enlightenment being Marpa Keys in Milarepa was forced for years to carry stones up and down the mountain for no reason other than Mapa being unwilling to reveal what lessonsin Milarepa came to learn. "Why should I reveal to you all I know after all the suffering and time it took me to learn of these things?" claims Marpa to Milarepa.

What an ordeal when finally Marpa reveals the simplistic information that he knows from books he read in his laborious travels Milarepa finds he already knew from birth and retreats to a remote mountain cave on My. Kailash away from all human existence and unwilling to allow anyone access
Marpa knew what he was doing. But that story may be somewhat apocryphal. In any case, Marpa's transmission to Milarepa was not just "simplistic information that he knows from books." It was Vajrayana transmission.

If you want to know something of the value of books in Tibetan Vajrayana, you should learn about Rechungpa and what Mila did with his books, when Rechungpa returned from India with a bunch of books.
It is often repeated: a school or teacher is only as good as the books read as the student is often more knowledgeable than either the school or the teacher and is able to teach the teacher.

It also parallels the fact that:
A servant is his best king whereas a king is his best, servant.

In Vajrayana, the teacher is the ultimate arbiter. Books are nice. Vajrayana is an aural tradition, and a visual one. You can read, but some things must be learned by hearing or by seeing. Without a teacher, there is no Tibetan Buddhism.
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It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: His Holiness says that one can follow a book, not a teacher

Post by Konchog Thogme Jampa »

And the gurus blessings is the beginning middle and end
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