Are there tertons at Gelug School?

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Viach
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Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Viach »

Are there tertons at Gelug School? If not, why not? (because the rest of the schools of Tibetan Buddhism have them)
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Losal Samten
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Losal Samten »

The Fifth Dalai Lama and the Fifth Lelung Rinpoche are famous Gelugpa tertons.
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Varis
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Varis »

Tertons are by and large a Nyingma and Bon phenomena. The Kagyupas who were tertons were Nyingma and Bon influenced/trained. Same goes for the Dalai Lama who was a terton.

Lama Tsongkhapa placed a strong emphasis on practices that he believed could be verifiably traced back to India. In his opinion those three main practices were Yamantaka (Ra Lotsawa lineage specifically), Guhyasamaja, and Chakrasamvara.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by dzoki »

Varis wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:06 pm Lama Tsongkhapa placed a strong emphasis on practices that he believed could be verifiably traced back to India.
Not really, if you take into consideration Tsongkhapa's acceptance of various pure vision practices that he recieved from Umapa Tsondru Sengge, which are still practiced in Gelug to this day - most well know example being White Chakrasamvara. Of course there is white Chakrasamvara of Indian origin, in fact several different lineages with several different forms, but none of them looks like Umapa's.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Varis »

dzoki wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:29 pm Not really, if you take into consideration Tsongkhapa's acceptance of various pure vision practices that he recieved from Umapa Tsondru Sengge, which are still practiced in Gelug to this day - most well know example being White Chakrasamvara. Of course there is white Chakrasamvara of Indian origin, in fact several different lineages with several different forms, but none of them looks like Umapa's.
The Chakrasamvara sadhana that is required practice for Gelugpas and emphasized by Tsongkhapa is of the Luipa lineage. This is something that has been reiterated and emphasized by H.H. the Dalai Lama, the gsang bde 'jigs gsum are supposed to be the main practices of Gelugpas, everything else is ancillary and up to the karma of the individual. The reasoning behind that is the one that I gave above.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by n8pee »

Varis wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:20 pm The Chakrasamvara sadhana that is required practice for Gelugpas and emphasized by Tsongkhapa is of the Luipa lineage. This is something that has been reiterated and emphasized by H.H. the Dalai Lama, the gsang bde 'jigs gsum are supposed to be the main practices of Gelugpas, everything else is ancillary and up to the karma of the individual. The reasoning behind that is the one that I gave above.
Luipa specifically? I've heard HHDL praise the body mandala of the Ghantapa tradition as well if I'm not mistaken.
Malcolm
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Malcolm »

n8pee wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:36 pm
Luipa specifically? I've heard HHDL praise the body mandala of the Ghantapa tradition as well if I'm not mistaken.
The Ghantapāda body mandala system is the most profound of the three Cakrasamvara systems that came into Sakya through Mal Lotsawa. It is very widespread in Gelug.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by n8pee »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:16 pm The Ghantapāda body mandala system is the most profound of the three Cakrasamvara systems that came into Sakya through Mal Lotsawa. It is very widespread in Gelug.
In this context, how is profound defined? What makes this body mandala the most profound?
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by jmlee369 »

Varis wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:20 pm
dzoki wrote: Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:29 pm Not really, if you take into consideration Tsongkhapa's acceptance of various pure vision practices that he recieved from Umapa Tsondru Sengge, which are still practiced in Gelug to this day - most well know example being White Chakrasamvara. Of course there is white Chakrasamvara of Indian origin, in fact several different lineages with several different forms, but none of them looks like Umapa's.
The Chakrasamvara sadhana that is required practice for Gelugpas and emphasized by Tsongkhapa is of the Luipa lineage. This is something that has been reiterated and emphasized by H.H. the Dalai Lama, the gsang bde 'jigs gsum are supposed to be the main practices of Gelugpas, everything else is ancillary and up to the karma of the individual. The reasoning behind that is the one that I gave above.
The three tantras studied at the tantric colleges are well defined (Akshobhyavajra Guhyasamaja, 13 deity Vajrabhairava, and Luipa Chakrasamvara), but in practice there are many more that have been practiced even since the time of Lama Tsongkhapa. The three that are studied provide a theoretical basis for the workings of tantra, but the other transmissions are hardly ancillary to the tradition.

From the Berzin Archives:
Tsongkhapa practiced six main anuttarayoga Buddha-figure systems: the Akshobhya form of Guhyasamaja (gSang-‘dus Mi-bskyod-pa), the Luipa lineage of Chakrasamvara (bDe-mchog Lu’i-pa), Thirteen-Couple Vajrabhairava (‘Jigs-byed Lha-bcu-gsum), Single-Figure Vajrabhairava (‘Jigs-byed dPa’-bo gcig-pa), Kalachakra (Dus-‘khor), and Mahachakra Vajrapani (Phyag-rdor ‘khor-chen).

Tsongkhapa taught eight discourse traditions for complete stage (rdzogs-rim) practice: the Luipa lineage of Chakrasamvara, the Ghantapada (Dril-bu-pa) Body-Mandala lineage of Chakrasamvara (bDe-mchog Lus-dkyil), the Six Practices (“Yogas”) of Naropa (Na-ro’i chos-drug), Kalachakra, the Arya lineage of Guhyasamaja (gSang-‘dus ‘Phags-lugs), the Jnanapada lineage of Guhyasamaja (gSang-‘dus Ye-shes zhabs-lugs), Vajrabhairava, and Mahachakra Vajrapani.
Varis wrote: Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:06 pm Tertons are by and large a Nyingma and Bon phenomena. The Kagyupas who were tertons were Nyingma and Bon influenced/trained. Same goes for the Dalai Lama who was a terton.

Lama Tsongkhapa placed a strong emphasis on practices that he believed could be verifiably traced back to India. In his opinion those three main practices were Yamantaka (Ra Lotsawa lineage specifically), Guhyasamaja, and Chakrasamvara.
There are many lineages of pure vision teachings and the like, of which Umapa's White Chakrasamvara mentioned by Dzoki is a good example. It is a widely practiced long life deity and His Holiness gave the initiation for it during the Wheel of Manjushri transmissions (a pure vision cycle from Lama Umapa) a few years ago. It is not from the Luipa lineage yet His Holiness has stated that he does the practice every day.

The core guru yoga practices of our tradition, Guru Puja and Ganden Lhagyema are also practices transmitted to Lama Tsongkhapa through visionary experience.

Lhodrag Namkha Gyaltsen, a guru of Lama Tsongkhapa, has an incarnation line (the Lelung tulkus) of whom the 5th was a terton.

The 13 Pure Visions of Takpu Dorje Chang, and especially the Cittamani Tara cycle is a very widespread practice in the lineage.

Two terma lineages of Hayagriva are also widespread within our tradition, Secret Accomplishment Hayagriva (tamdrin sangdrub) and Most Secret Hayagriva (tamdrin yangsang). The latter was a family lineage of Lodro Rinchen Senge, founder of Sera monastery, and this lineage is the main yidam for Sera Jey and deeply connected to the founding of the monastery as well. Lama Tsongkhapa personally blessed Lodro Rinchen Senge to accomplish his activities.

Then there is also the 16 drops of Kadam initiation which although doubted by Khedrub Je continues to be transmitted within our tradition.
n8pee wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:36 pm
Varis wrote: Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:20 pm The Chakrasamvara sadhana that is required practice for Gelugpas and emphasized by Tsongkhapa is of the Luipa lineage. This is something that has been reiterated and emphasized by H.H. the Dalai Lama, the gsang bde 'jigs gsum are supposed to be the main practices of Gelugpas, everything else is ancillary and up to the karma of the individual. The reasoning behind that is the one that I gave above.
Luipa specifically? I've heard HHDL praise the body mandala of the Ghantapa tradition as well if I'm not mistaken.
His Holiness gave a transmission for the commentaries of the Ghantapada body mandala system in the 2004.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Varis »

jmlee369 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:50 am ...
Well, I'll admit defeat.
I understand that there are practices outside the big 3, but from I understood those were the ones to be focused on.
Then again, the Gelug centers in my area are run by tantric college graduates so that may or may not account for my biased understanding.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by jmlee369 »

Varis wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:38 am
jmlee369 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:50 am ...
Well, I'll admit defeat.
I understand that there are practices outside the big 3, but from I understood those were the ones to be focused on.
Then again, the Gelug centers in my area are run by tantric college graduates so that may or may not account for my biased understanding.
I mean despite my post, I think especially Guhyasamaja is neglected in the West and needs a lot more care and attention from practitioners since it is so essential to the lineage. That being said, what we are seeing in terms of tantra is pretty much the same at sutra level. The teachers and upholders of the lineage will study extensively the five great treatises at the large monasteries but what we encounter at most centres in the west (and even the local monasteries back in Tibet) is usually lam-rim teachings and other shorter works. The fullness of the tradition doesn't quite make it beyond the monastic strongholds. A lot of it has to do with practical limitations. We don't have large numbers of people dedicating time exclusively to dharma in the west yet, so everyone has to settle for the shorter practices. The long Vajrabhairava or Cittamani Tara sadhana can be recited in about an hour, and you have the freedom to extend it from there, whereas just reading through the long Guhyasamaja sadhana takes about two hours, let alone meditating on the key points of practice or doing mantra recitations. If you decide on a daily practice commitment, one is going to be easier than the other.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Bristollad »

One of Geshes here when asked about a Guhyasamaja group retreat replied that he didn't think many of us would be able to do it. He told us that he struggled fitting all of the meditations required into the four sessions each day when he undertook his retreat. The sadhana is long but when you receive the commentary and explanation, you realise the sadhana can gloss over many extensive meditations with just a single line.

I look forward to the time when the causes and conditions align to allow this practice to be extensively studied and practised in the West.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by n8pee »

jmlee369 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:50 am I mean despite my post, I think especially Guhyasamaja is neglected in the West and needs a lot more care and attention from practitioners since it is so essential to the lineage. That being said, what we are seeing in terms of tantra is pretty much the same at sutra level. The teachers and upholders of the lineage will study extensively the five great treatises at the large monasteries but what we encounter at most centres in the west (and even the local monasteries back in Tibet) is usually lam-rim teachings and other shorter works. The fullness of the tradition doesn't quite make it beyond the monastic strongholds. A lot of it has to do with practical limitations. We don't have large numbers of people dedicating time exclusively to dharma in the west yet, so everyone has to settle for the shorter practices. The long Vajrabhairava or Cittamani Tara sadhana can be recited in about an hour, and you have the freedom to extend it from there, whereas just reading through the long Guhyasamaja sadhana takes about two hours, let alone meditating on the key points of practice or doing mantra recitations. If you decide on a daily practice commitment, one is going to be easier than the other.
I've wondered if this is the reason for the comparatively larger proliferation of Vajrayogini - i.e., the simplicity of the mandala, sadhana and so forth. Also the fact that it is more powerful in these degenerate times.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Volan »

n8pee wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:46 pm
jmlee369 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:50 am I mean despite my post, I think especially Guhyasamaja is neglected in the West and needs a lot more care and attention from practitioners since it is so essential to the lineage. That being said, what we are seeing in terms of tantra is pretty much the same at sutra level. The teachers and upholders of the lineage will study extensively the five great treatises at the large monasteries but what we encounter at most centres in the west (and even the local monasteries back in Tibet) is usually lam-rim teachings and other shorter works. The fullness of the tradition doesn't quite make it beyond the monastic strongholds. A lot of it has to do with practical limitations. We don't have large numbers of people dedicating time exclusively to dharma in the west yet, so everyone has to settle for the shorter practices. The long Vajrabhairava or Cittamani Tara sadhana can be recited in about an hour, and you have the freedom to extend it from there, whereas just reading through the long Guhyasamaja sadhana takes about two hours, let alone meditating on the key points of practice or doing mantra recitations. If you decide on a daily practice commitment, one is going to be easier than the other.
I've wondered if this is the reason for the comparatively larger proliferation of Vajrayogini - i.e., the simplicity of the mandala, sadhana and so forth. Also the fact that it is more powerful in these degenerate times.
One of the biggest advantages of Guhyasamaja is that you will no longer need the empowerments of various deities - all the peaceful Buddhas and bodhisattvas, all the wrathful deities are included.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Varis »

n8pee wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:46 pm I've wondered if this is the reason for the comparatively larger proliferation of Vajrayogini - i.e., the simplicity of the mandala, sadhana and so forth. Also the fact that it is more powerful in these degenerate times.
IIRC Pabongkha's favorite yidam was Vajrayogini and so he emphasized it a lot to his students.
My local center focuses on Vajrabhairava in alignment with HH's recommendation.
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jmlee369
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by jmlee369 »

Bristollad wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:57 am One of Geshes here when asked about a Guhyasamaja group retreat replied that he didn't think many of us would be able to do it. He told us that he struggled fitting all of the meditations required into the four sessions each day when he undertook his retreat. The sadhana is long but when you receive the commentary and explanation, you realise the sadhana can gloss over many extensive meditations with just a single line.

I look forward to the time when the causes and conditions align to allow this practice to be extensively studied and practised in the West.
Well you have some cause to rejoice, Artemus Engle had the great vision to request commentary on the two stages of Akshobyavajra Guhyasamaja practice from Gyumé Khensur Lobsang Jampa Rinpoche and has published the translation of the generation stage teachings in 2019, while Yael Bentor and Penpa Dorjee translated Panchen Losang Chogyen's The Essence of the Ocean of Attainments commentary, published in 2019. Then there is Lama Tsongkhapa's completion stage commentary that was translated and published earlier. So we are slowly building up the resources for extensive study in English.

Continuing with the 2019 theme, in that year a group of some 40 or so students (if I remember correctly) completed the approximation retreat of Akshobhavajra Guhyasamaja over the course of 45 days in Edmonton, Canada. From the schedule I saw it was quite intense, sessions last about 3-3.5 hours, and that was using the simplified format of reciting the complete long sadhana just once a day. The whole retreat would take much longer if the long sadhana was used each session. So we are seeing some developments there.
n8pee wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:46 pm I've wondered if this is the reason for the comparatively larger proliferation of Vajrayogini - i.e., the simplicity of the mandala, sadhana and so forth. Also the fact that it is more powerful in these degenerate times.
That is a big factor, but also because there is a karmic affinity for many people, and the nature of the yidam herself befits modern sensibilities, I think. The thing about power in degenerate times is that is also said to be the case for Vajrabhairava, Chakrasamvara, and Medicine Buddha, and other yidams, so not an exclusive reason.
Volan wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:37 pm One of the biggest advantages of Guhyasamaja is that you will no longer need the empowerments of various deities - all the peaceful Buddhas and bodhisattvas, all the wrathful deities are included.
But it's still the case that to actually practice the individual deity's cycle, empowerment is necessary. And the function of each of the retinue deities is different and unique to the Guhyasamaja system, not so much related to their conventional function.
Varis wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 7:07 am IIRC Pabongkha's favorite yidam was Vajrayogini and so he emphasized it a lot to his students.
My local center focuses on Vajrabhairava in alignment with HH's recommendation.
Pabongkha Rinpoche's main yidam was Chakrasamvara, of which Vajrayogini is an important aspect, but his specialty was the Chakrasamvara cycle. I think His Holiness is really pushing an emphasis on Guhyasamaja as the main Gelug yidam. From his remarks at the Second Gelug Conference in 2000:
Then on the Tantric side there are the three main deities, Guhyasamaja, Heruka Chakrasamvara and Yamantaka as well as Kalachakra. Of those, it is Guhyasamaja, that is the chief. There is a saying in the Gelug, 'If you are on the move it is Guhyasamaja. If you are still, it is Guhyasamaja. If you are meditating, it should be upon Guhyasamaja’. Therefore, whether you are engaged in study or practice, Guhyasamaja should be your focus.
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

Post by Bristollad »

jmlee369 wrote: Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:37 am Well you have some cause to rejoice
:twothumbsup:

Just yesterday, the Geshe I mentioned previously said he was ready, happy and willing to give personal instructions to any of his students who did want to do the retreat.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: Are there tertons at Gelug School?

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The side topic about Milarepa moved to the Nyingma subforum.
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