Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by kalden yungdrung »

Lobsang Chojor wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 9:27 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote: Sun May 13, 2018 12:31 am Tashi delek LC,

Thanks for the reply.

Ok, a little misunderstanding from my side, sorry for that.

Do you think that because they are no direct Tulkus from Je Tsongkapa, they would not have enough power to make Dzogchen useful within the Gelug Tradition ?

- Another option would maybe, that the Dalai Lamas would have been dominated by other Gelugpas.
- Then arises the question how is the hierarchy in Gelug managed ?

Know only that the Panchen Lamas are very important within the Gelug Tradition.

Best wishes.
The Gaden Tripa are Tsongkhapa's spiritual sons, so the hierarchy is 1) Gaden Tripa 2) Dalai Lama 3) Panchen Lama.

It won't have been changed because it's not part of Tsongkhapa's primary teachings
Tashi delek LC,

Thanks for the elucidations.

I see , the Dalai lamas are on the second place in the Gelug hierarchy and they have teachings regarding Dzogchen which is not a part of Je Tsongkapa´s philosophical conviction ( Prasangika Madyamika).

They have only Mahamudra based on a Mind to Mind Teaching of Arya Manujhri.

Then it is clear for me right on, that Dzogchen never would have / had a chance within the Gelug Tradition, nevertheless there are Gelugpas who are well informed about Dzogchen and do the related practice. They are very clear the minority within the Tibetan Gelug Tradition.

As a last what do Gelugpas practice:

- Essence Mahamudra maybe ?
The best meditation is no meditation
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Re: Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso

Post by Matylda »

kalden yungdrung wrote: Tue May 08, 2018 5:09 pm Tashi delek,

Have published this topic also elswhere here aboard, but i guess to place this topic here too, would not be bad.

Ngawang Lobzang Gyatso / 5th and 6th Dalai Lamas, were Dzogchenpas, see the kLa Kang murals.

Asked myself always why he /they did not integrate Dzogchen in the Gelug as highest teaching / practice.

- How do we call this Dzogchen Lineage in Gelug, based on the Great Fifth ?
- Is this an unbroken Dzogchen Lineage ?

Yeah, the Great Fifth was gelugpa as well as nyingmapa, with much link to the nyingma.. it was dorje drak monastery and jangter, which was his connection... his son the 1st Desi Rinpoche, who concealed death of the 5th had a vision, as for next DL - the 6th.
Desi was raised as a nyingma within Dorje Drak lineage, though as a regent or desi of the 5th he reformed gelug shedra and introduced there astrology and even more important - Tibetan medicine, which was by that time pretty forgotten.. actually he brought again the four medical tantras.

The 6th DL was son of Desi Rinpoche, and Desi's vision was about future mother.. actually she was a girl from Bhutan where Desi secretly traveled just for one reason of making a baby boy, the future 6th DL, and the very girl was of Pema Lingpa family direct line. So the 6th was a blood descendent of Pema Lingpa.. and the family of terton made always point of transmitting the Peling termas within the family independantly of Pema Lingpa three tulkus' lineage

as for the Potala palace, the very uppermost gonpa was dedicated to nyingma.. actually during the 5th, when the 1st Desi was established the practice of DL and his direct etourage was for 2 weeks gelug sarma, and other two weeks nyingma/dzogchen, so each month they did both practices alternatively.. so it looks as if they never mixed but practiced one of them at the time.

As for the lineage of Desi, his monastery was build just on the other side of the river where dorje drak monastery is... desi's monastery was completely destroyed and erased by chinese communist forces after 1959.

my sources:

direct members of Peling family
gelug rinpoches connected to Desi line

both were perfectly informed and gave many more details.

post script

From what I heard there was never any question of mixing nyingma and gelug, rather both were treated seperatly right from the beginning. Anyway it sounded like this. I can understand strong opposition of gelug geshes and important figures of drepung, sera and ganden.. for them since the 5th DL reign Potala was under spell of dzogchen and nyingma. Severe attacks against nyingma in the time of the 13th DL were caused also by his strong nyingma practice of jangter termas. and they did not made this mistake with the 14th whom they strongly pushed into 'orthodox' gelug including strong Sh, practice etc. after death of Reting RInpoche - another high gelug official praticing nyingma and close follower of the 13th DL.
the 14th realised pretty late what he was exposed to before he cut what he considered as danger. And it is just recently that 14th DL started to give transmission of the 5th termas.
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