Terma practices in the Sakya school

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Volan
Posts: 63
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:27 am

Terma practices in the Sakya school

Post by Volan »

Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm
The Gonpo Chamdral and the Karmanathas were received by Sachen from Mal Lotsawa, who in turn received the terma tradition from Lotsawa Rinchen Zangpo. So, no this was not some thing that entered Sakya later. It was in Sakya from earlhy 12th century, beginning with the third throne holder, Sachen Kunga Nyingpo.
They view these termas as mahayoga, anuyoga or atiyoga? How do they include these teachings into the school's tantric framework? Sakya Pandita Kunga Gyaltshen was famous for criticizing Dzogchen and as far as i know, these termas from Nyang that, as you have mentioned are practiced in the Sakya tradition since the 14th century, are associated with the nine yana Nyingma system and this Guru Drakpo might be associated with Dzogchen. Doesn`t that contradict the views of the earlier patriarch?
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm Finally, the Khon Brothers did not "stop" the Nyingma lineage. That's ridiculous and offensive. In fact, the reading transmission for the five early Dzogchen lungs of Vairocana was preserved by Khon Konchog Gyalpo and passed on by him.
One of the gurus of Khon Konchog Gyalpo was Tanak Gö Lotsāwa , who transmitted the Guhyasamaja cycle to him. Je Tsonghkapa mentions him as one of the three main figures in transmitting Guhyasamaja in Tibet (the other two are Lhodrak Marpa and Rinchen Sangpo). Gö Lotsāwa was famous for critising the authenticity of some of the Nyingma tantras and Sakya Pandita also admitted that there are a lot of fabricated tantras in nyingma ( "Reply to the Translator from Chak" in the "A Clear Differentiation of the Three Codes"). Gorampa includes the following nyingma tantras that were composed by Tibetans: Kun byed rgyal po; the mDo dgongs 'dus; the Zhi khro sgyu 'phrul; the Lha mo'i skyis rgyud; the Bam ril thod mkhm; the sNang brgyad, the Las dge sdig bstan pa, and others. You can see the famous dzogchen tantra in that list.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm They are the only family to continue the practice of Vajrakilaya from the time of Padmasambhava until the present.
That`s excellent.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm Further, you do realize that the Nyingma Shri Heruka (aka Yangdak) and Hevajra are the same deity, correct?
With the same iconography, mantras, sadhanas,etc?
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm And, as evidence of the respect with which the Terton Nyangral was held, the Indian Paṇḍita, Śakya Shribhadra, conducted the funerary arrangments for Nyangral.
You have mentioned that Tsangnyon Heruka cannot be trusted for details, have to say that modern scholars view the Terton Nyangral as one of the biggest fabricators of the Tibetan history.


Sakya Pandita Kunga Gyaltshen - A Clear Differentiation of the Three Codes, translated by Jared Douglas Rhoton:
To trace back to Vajradhara
volumes originating from treasure-caches
,
teachings pilfered from other systems,
teachings that have been composed [as apocrypha],
those that somebody dreamed,
or those that have been obtained through memorization
and to receive scriptural transmissions
for these from other [traditions]
will contradict one's own word,
let alone the Doctrine
.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Terma practices in the Sakya school

Post by Malcolm »

Volan wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:17 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm
The Gonpo Chamdral and the Karmanathas were received by Sachen from Mal Lotsawa, who in turn received the terma tradition from Lotsawa Rinchen Zangpo. So, no this was not some thing that entered Sakya later. It was in Sakya from earlhy 12th century, beginning with the third throne holder, Sachen Kunga Nyingpo.
They view these termas as mahayoga, anuyoga or atiyoga? How do they include these teachings into the school's tantric framework? Sakya Pandita Kunga Gyaltshen was famous for criticizing Dzogchen and as far as i know,
The eight deity Mahakala tradition is rooted in mahayoga.

Sapan lightly criticized some perspectives about Dzogchen in Three Vows, but in Illuminating the Intent of the Muni, he recognizes Atiyoga as the pinnacle of the nine vehicles, indicating that his criticism of the nine yānas was limited to claims about the nine yānas having different views.
these termas from Nyang that, as you have mentioned are practiced in the Sakya tradition since the 14th century, are associated with the nine yana Nyingma system and this Guru Drakpo might be associated with Dzogchen. Doesn`t that contradict the views of the earlier patriarch?
The Sakya masters did not reject Dzogchen. They rejected certain interpretations of Dzogchen. At the present time, His Holiness Sakya Trichen, His Holiness Sakya Trizen, all accept and teach cycles related to Dzogchen, like the King's Tradition of Avalokiteśvara from the Mani Kabum, Chime Phagma Nyingthig, The Termas of Apaṃ Terton, etc. Not only this, but the Nyangral Guru Dragmar is included in the Collection Of All Sādhanas, along with some other termas, like the Lama Gongdu, also critized by Chak Lotsawa. But Chak Lotsawa also criticized Chod and Zhijey, both of which are accepted systems now in all schools.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm Finally, the Khon Brothers did not "stop" the Nyingma lineage. That's ridiculous and offensive. In fact, the reading transmission for the five early Dzogchen lungs of Vairocana was preserved by Khon Konchog Gyalpo and passed on by him.
One of the gurus of Khon Konchog Gyalpo was Tanak Gö Lotsāwa , who transmitted the Guhyasamaja cycle to him. Je Tsonghkapa mentions him as one of the three main figures in transmitting Guhyasamaja in Tibet (the other two are Lhodrak Marpa and Rinchen Sangpo). Gö Lotsāwa was famous for critising the authenticity of some of the Nyingma tantras and Sakya Pandita also admitted that there are a lot of fabricated tantras in nyingma ( "Reply to the Translator from Chak" in the "A Clear Differentiation of the Three Codes"). Gorampa includes the following nyingma tantras that were composed by Tibetans: Kun byed rgyal po; the mDo dgongs 'dus; the Zhi khro sgyu 'phrul; the Lha mo'i skyis rgyud; the Bam ril thod mkhm; the sNang brgyad, the Las dge sdig bstan pa, and others. You can see the famous dzogchen tantra in that list.
Yes, Go Lotsawa was also famous for being extremely jealous of Drokmi and criticizing him harshly, even though Drokmi was by far the better translator, so they say. Having read Go's text, it is not a very impressive critique, and is not supported by the Gongma. For example, Go claims that Ma Rinchen Chok composed the Guhyagarbha, but Jetsun Drakpa Gyaltsen defends its authenticity. Go accuses Nubchen of forging the five lungs of Vairocana, but we know that Khon Konchok Gyalpo was instrumental in passing the transmission of these texts onward, and texts like the Cuckook of Vidyā are found in Dunhuang. Sapan mentions that he received Dzogchen teachings, and one of his most important students, Gyalwa Yangonpa, was famed for claiming his realization came from Dzogchen.

The Gelukpas accept the Tārā Tantra, whose authenticity is disputed by Ngorchen. Kalacakra was rejected by Rendawa. The Nyingmapas such as Rokben were skeptical of the mother tantras with their new-fangeled cakras and nadis, and so on.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm Further, you do realize that the Nyingma Shri Heruka (aka Yangdak) and Hevajra are the same deity, correct?
With the same iconography, mantras, sadhanas,etc?
The retinue is the same, but this was stated by HH Sakya Trichen when I first received the Hevajra Empowerment from him.
Malcolm wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:22 pm And, as evidence of the respect with which the Terton Nyangral was held, the Indian Paṇḍita, Śakya Shribhadra, conducted the funerary arrangments for Nyangral.
You have mentioned that Tsangnyon Heruka cannot be trusted for details, have to say that modern scholars view the Terton Nyangral as one of the biggest fabricators of the Tibetan history.
That's an exaggeration. But in any case, Nyang's history was one of the first of its kind in Tibet, it has its deficits, but then, so do all pre-modern Tibetan accounts of the imperial period.


BTW, the first work in the Lhasa edition of Tsongkhapa's collected works is a work on Dzogchen.
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