Sapan and Dzogchen

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Johnny Dangerous
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Sapan and Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I'm currently perusing "illuminations A Guide to Essential Buddhist Practices", translated by Geshe Wangyal and Brian Cutillo. It's a book from 1988, I don't know anything about the quality of the translation.

Anyway, there is a portion on Wrong View in which Sapan goes over various wrong views, connecting many of them to the famous debate with Hashang Mahayana.

If I am reading it correctly, it's essentially a polemic against "effortless" practices as well, there is lots of talk about how you must "correct deficiencies" etc. and claiming that versions of "Mahamudra" (Dzogchen is not explicitly mentioned, but language used in Dzogchen is, and it almost feels like the term is being used synonymously) which involve viewing "the mind as clear light" are incomplete. AS an example, multiple times he criticizes meditating "without modification".

The criticism is a little opaque to me, and I cannot tell if he is contextually arguing against the essentially non-gradual approach of Dzogchen meditation proper (not preliminaries), or whether he is referring to specific deviations with which I may not be familiar. I always imagined that Sapan had some pretty specific criticisms of Dzogchen.

I have always assumed that Sarma schools and Dzogchen were somewhat irreconcilable on paper (though of course not neccessarily in practice)..again is this what I'm looking at?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Malcolm
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Re: Sapan and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Sat Feb 06, 2021 9:57 pm I'm currently perusing "illuminations A Guide to Essential Buddhist Practices", translated by Geshe Wangyal and Brian Cutillo. It's a book from 1988, I don't know anything about the quality of the translation.

Anyway, there is a portion on Wrong View in which Sapan goes over various wrong views, connecting many of them to the famous debate with Hashang Mahayana.

If I am reading it correctly, it's essentially a polemic against "effortless" practices as well, there is lots of talk about how you must "correct deficiencies" etc. and claiming that versions of "Mahamudra" (Dzogchen is not explicitly mentioned, but language used in Dzogchen is, and it almost feels like the term is being used synonymously) which involve viewing "the mind as clear light" are incomplete. AS an example, multiple times he criticizes meditating "without modification".

The criticism is a little opaque to me, and I cannot tell if he is contextually arguing against the essentially non-gradual approach of Dzogchen meditation proper (not preliminaries), or whether he is referring to specific deviations with which I may not be familiar. I always imagined that Sapan had some pretty specific criticisms of Dzogchen.

I have always assumed that Sarma schools and Dzogchen were somewhat irreconcilable on paper (though of course not neccessarily in practice)..again is this what I'm looking at?
This is not a good translation. You should get the one by David Jackson, which I believe you download from academia edu.
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Yungdrung Gyalpo
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Re: Sapan and Dzogchen

Post by Yungdrung Gyalpo »

It is not certain that all of Sakya Paṇḍita's objections reach or even target Dzogchen.

Part of his reasoning, also in the Domsum Rabye, is aimed at the idea of a practice which would be beyond the methodical practice of the two phases of the higher tantras, to such extend that it would no longer involve any properly tantric means. The essence of Sakya Paṇḍita's argument is (1) that such a thing has not existed in India and (2) that, even if it were valid, it would amount at best to a non-tantric Mahayanist practice, at worst to a practice of the Lesser Vehicle (if there are no longer even the pāramitā corresponding to the aspect of methods or means), or, at worst, to Brahmanic meditation as it is understood or fantasized by Buddhists, especially Tibetans (a pure blocking of thoughts producing a state similar to sleep, fainting, coma...).

The background of the argument is that the two kāyas should be the fruit of the two accumulations, merit and wisdom. If you remove all methods, how could you possibly reach full and perfect enlightenment? Or else you'd have to assume that the two accumulations are pre-eternally already perfected in the Buddha-nature, but then, he would say, it is our un-enlightened state that would become altogether impossible to understand.

Dzogchen partly escapes this criticism because it has (in some of its forms at least) specifically "tantric-style" methods (empowerments, etc.).

The main passage where Sakya Paṇḍita talks about Dzogchen, to my knowledge, is in the Domsum Rabye and not in the Thupai Gongsal. He uses the formula: rGya nag lugs kyi rdzogs chen, which I understand as meaning: "Chinese-style Dzogchen" [and not: "a Chinese tradition of Dzogchen", which it could mean also but would not make sense in the context], and this formula does not as such put Dzogchen and Ch'an on an equal footing: it seems rather to say that the Mahāmudrā of the Kagyüpas, which he does not recognize as a valid interpretation of the highest yoga tantras, would be a deviation from Dzogchen renewing the "Chinese heresy".

David Jackson has clearly shown that it was in fact Lama Zhang who was specifically targeted by Sakya Paṇḍita. On the other hand, I think that in later comments on the Domsum Rabye, like that of Gorampa, the charge is heavier against Dzogchen.
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Re: Sapan and Dzogchen

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Wow, thank you. Quite a detailed answer!
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

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Malcolm
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Re: Sapan and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Yungdrung Gyalpo wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 7:00 pm It is not certain that all of Sakya Paṇḍita's objections reach or even target Dzogchen.

The main passage where Sakya Paṇḍita talks about Dzogchen, to my knowledge, is in the Domsum Rabye and not in the Thupai Gongsal.
He mentions Dzogchen in passing as the apex of the Nyingma system in Thubgong, but offers no criticism of it in that text.

In Domsum, he merely distinguishes that in his opinion, Dzogchen is a ye shes, not a tshul.
On the other hand, I think that in later comments on the Domsum Rabye, like that of Gorampa, the charge is heavier against Dzogchen.
Not so much against Dzogchen per se, as texts like Kun byed rgyal po, which Gorampa asserts Sapan was too polite to mention by name.
rGya nag lugs kyi rdzogs chen, which I understand as meaning: "Chinese-style Dzogchen"
This is a reference to the one shoe left in Tibet by Hashang. And yes, it is an implication that Dzogchen was influenced by Hashang. IOW, "Chinese-style Dzogchen" refers to Kagyu Mahamudra of Shang, etc.
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Yungdrung Gyalpo
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Re: Sapan and Dzogchen

Post by Yungdrung Gyalpo »

Dear Malcolm (if I dare), yes, I agree.

The real philosophical issue, which is not so simple, is about the way in which you can understand in a Dzogchen context the production / attainment of the two (3, 5… whatever) Kāyas with or without the accumulations.

If you know Nyoshül Khenpo's dris lan, he answers a precise question I asked him about that, long ago. Basically, his assumption is that it is not the case that in Dzogchen you reach the two resultant Kāyas without the two accumulations, but that the kadak aspect contains the accumulations of wisdom primordially perfected, while the lhundrup aspect contains the accumulations of merit originally perfected. Hence, he says, you obtain the Dharmakāya as the fruit of the (self-disclosing of?) kadak side of Rigpa and the Rūpakāya thanks to the (self-disclosing of?) the lhundrup side of Rigpa.

This is how he appeased my half-sakyapa doubts (Khenpo Apey once made fun of me, asking, but, in fact, are you really a Nyingmapa? Are you not a Sakyapa?…).

Now Nyoshül Khenpo's answer works only if you decide to understand Rigpa as eternal in terms of "timeless", not of "pre-existing". It implies to get rid of all Shentong-style images of the jewel already there in its gangue or the sky already clear despite the clouds.

By the way, in my opinion, Gorampa's interpretation of the connection between the Buddhas’ omniscience and its objects (in the lTa ba ngan sel) is 100% Dzogchen-compatible, as it implies that there is no such thing really as an omniscience-subject and its two types of objets, the ultimate and the conventional realities, – but in fact only one nature which includes the ye shes and its two types of objects, these three aspects being distinguished only for the limited intelligence of ordinary beings. In my opinion, this also implies an omniscient ye shes that is as timeless as emptiness itself. I think it matches fully with Longchenpa's real intent. As far as I understand both.
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Re: Sapan and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Yungdrung Gyalpo wrote: Mon May 31, 2021 8:04 pm


If you know Nyoshül Khenpo's dris lan, he answers a precise question I asked him about that, long ago. Basically, his assumption is that it is not the case that in Dzogchen you reach the two resultant Kāyas without the two accumulations, but that the kadak aspect contains the accumulations of wisdom primordially perfected, while the lhundrup aspect contains the accumulations of merit originally perfected. Hence, he says, you obtain the Dharmakāya as the fruit of the (self-disclosing of?) kadak side of Rigpa and the Rūpakāya thanks to the (self-disclosing of?) the lhundrup side of Rigpa.
His teacher, Khenpo Ngachung gives a similar account.
Now Nyoshül Khenpo's answer works only if you decide to understand Rigpa as eternal in terms of "timeless", not of "pre-existing". It implies to get rid of all Shentong-style images of the jewel already there in its gangue or the sky already clear despite the clouds.
Correct. RIgpa can't be preexisting, because if it were, then the three ma rig pas make no sense.
By the way, in my opinion, Gorampa's interpretation of the connection between the Buddhas’ omniscience and its objects (in the lTa ba ngan sel) is 100% Dzogchen-compatible...
The Sakyapa view of the result is indeed 100% percent compatible with Dzogchen.
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Re: Sapan and Dzogchen

Post by Yungdrung Gyalpo »

:anjali:
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