Rebirth

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Rebirth

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

lnn wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:59 am
I am a student studying Buddhism right now and also had apprehensions with regards to the idea of rebirth given the foundation of karma in Buddhism. I am confused at how one's karma can follow with them into a next life without there being an atman for that karma to link itself to? Does anyone have any insight into how this cycle of samsara continues for a specific individual if that individual is not grounded to one specific being?
The karma doesn’t follow a person in the next rebirth.
The karna is what creates the person in the next rebirth.

It’s a whole different being, you might say ‘modeled’ or ‘based on’ the previous being. Like a movie sequel.

In the case of tulkus, when people say “that person is recognized as being so-and-so in his previous life” it’s really a convenient way of saying that the causes and conditions which ‘produced’ (was) that particular person before are the same causes and conditions which have produced the person we recognize today as tulku.

Of course, everybody is the rebirth of some other being.
But they aren’t still “that” being. They are a new being.

If the causes and conditions (karma) resulting in that previous individual existing as, say, a horse, are strong enough, then those conditions (karma) will result in that individual being a horse in this life.

But, if other causes and conditions are, you might say, ‘stronger’ or more dominant (even causes from many earlier lifetimes) then the result will be that being is born as the culmination of those stronger conditions. If those stronger conditions are such that what occurs as a result is a human, then even if there was a horse previously, if the ‘horse-producing conditions’ aren’t there any more, and the ‘human-producing conditions’ are there, and they are the strongest, then the result will of course be a human.

That is why ‘precious human birth’ is so rare. It’s like when astronomers talk about how rare a “Goldilocks Zone” is, which refers to the exact conditions needed for a planet such as our Earth to occur.

The karmic conditions don’t happen to the sentient being.
The sentient being is the result of the karmic conditions.

It’s kind of like making a snowman. You aren’t putting snow onto something that already exists (atman).
You put the snow together a certain way, you roll it into balls and stack them and then that, itself, is the snowman.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Rebirth

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

lnn wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:59 amI am confused at how one's karma can follow with them into a next life without there being an atman for that karma to link itself to?
It is exactly the same as how one’s karma “follows them” from one moment to the next even within this single lifetime. There is no atman right now either. Yet, every moment, the body changes and every moment, mind arises with new thoughts, new perceptions.
Except, as mentioned before, karna doesn’t really “follow” you. Karma is what results in “you” to begin with.
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Re: Rebirth

Post by lnn »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:07 am
lnn wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:59 am
I am a student studying Buddhism right now and also had apprehensions with regards to the idea of rebirth given the foundation of karma in Buddhism. I am confused at how one's karma can follow with them into a next life without there being an atman for that karma to link itself to? Does anyone have any insight into how this cycle of samsara continues for a specific individual if that individual is not grounded to one specific being?
The karma doesn’t follow a person in the next rebirth.
The karna is what creates the person in the next rebirth.

It’s a whole different being, you might say ‘modeled’ or ‘based on’ the previous being. Like a movie sequel.

In the case of tulkus, when people say “that person is recognized as being so-and-so in his previous life” it’s really a convenient way of saying that the causes and conditions which ‘produced’ (was) that particular person before are the same causes and conditions which have produced the person we recognize today as tulku.

Of course, everybody is the rebirth of some other being.
But they aren’t still “that” being. They are a new being.

If the causes and conditions (karma) resulting in that previous individual existing as, say, a horse, are strong enough, then those conditions (karma) will result in that individual being a horse in this life.

But, if other causes and conditions are, you might say, ‘stronger’ or more dominant (even causes from many earlier lifetimes) then the result will be that being is born as the culmination of those stronger conditions. If those stronger conditions are such that what occurs as a result is a human, then even if there was a horse previously, if the ‘horse-producing conditions’ aren’t there any more, and the ‘human-producing conditions’ are there, and they are the strongest, then the result will of course be a human.

That is why ‘precious human birth’ is so rare. It’s like when astronomers talk about how rare a “Goldilocks Zone” is, which refers to the exact conditions needed for a planet such as our Earth to occur.

The karmic conditions don’t happen to the sentient being.
The sentient being is the result of the karmic conditions.

It’s kind of like making a snowman. You aren’t putting snow onto something that already exists (atman).
You put the snow together a certain way, you roll it into balls and stack them and then that, itself, is the snowman.


Thank you so much for your response! I was also curious how this notion of rebirth plays a role in the daily life of someone who is Buddhist? Is it an idea that is always on the forfront of one's mind?
In my studies of Buddhism, I came across somone saying that a Buddhist might want to treat everyone 'like they were his/her mother' because they most likely have been in a previous life.

Also, how does one conceptualize that the cycle of rebirth has gone on for so long? Especially given that the Buddha would not answer whether the world was eternal or not, it is difficult for me to grasp the magnitude this rebirth cycle must have. How does this play a role in a Buddhists desire to break the cycle? Is every Buddhist focued on ending the cycle of rebirth immediately? Or can someone still be a 'good' Buddhist without necessarily wanting out of this cycle?
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Rebirth

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

lnn wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:25 pm I was also curious how this notion of rebirth plays a role in the daily life of someone who is Buddhist? Is it an idea that is always on the forfront of one's mind?
Since there is no thing that can be identified ultimately as the ‘self’ then it means who “I am” arises new, constantly. In this sense, rebirth is happening constantly. In practical application, it means I can switch from “that was then” (which might have been someone screaming at me five seconds ago) to “this is now”. In other words, to instantly let go of attachment.
In my studies of Buddhism, I came across somone saying that a Buddhist might want to treat everyone 'like they were his/her mother' because they most likely have been in a previous life.
Yes, the idea here is that every being was your mother at some point. Of course, this relies somewhat on the idea of some essence of a person being the same now as before. Strictly speaking, I think that’s a bit of the view of atman. But the purpose of it is to consider the kindness of others over incalculable time for one to even be here today. In other words, you and I are here because for centuries upon centuries, people have been loving, brave, compassionate and so on.
Also, how does one conceptualize that the cycle of rebirth has gone on for so long?
It is not possible to imagine it.
How does this play a role in a Buddhists desire to break the cycle? Is every Buddhist focued on ending the cycle of rebirth immediately? Or can someone still be a 'good' Buddhist without necessarily wanting out of this cycle?
There are two ways of approaching it. Ultimately, Buddhist teachings are about freeing oneself from the cycle of rebirth, and not just about making samsara cozier. At the same time, it provides practical instructions for developing peace of mind, living peacefully and in harmony with others, how to be happy without depending on it, and how to feel sadness without wallowing in it.
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karmanyingpo
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Re: Rebirth

Post by karmanyingpo »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:47 pm
lnn wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:25 pm I was also curious how this notion of rebirth plays a role in the daily life of someone who is Buddhist? Is it an idea that is always on the forfront of one's mind?
Since there is no thing that can be identified ultimately as the ‘self’ then it means who “I am” arises new, constantly. In this sense, rebirth is happening constantly. In practical application, it means I can switch from “that was then” (which might have been someone screaming at me five seconds ago) to “this is now”. In other words, to instantly let go of attachment.
In my studies of Buddhism, I came across somone saying that a Buddhist might want to treat everyone 'like they were his/her mother' because they most likely have been in a previous life.
Yes, the idea here is that every being was your mother at some point. Of course, this relies somewhat on the idea of some essence of a person being the same now as before. Strictly speaking, I think that’s a bit of the view of atman. But the purpose of it is to consider the kindness of others over incalculable time for one to even be here today. In other words, you and I are here because for centuries upon centuries, people have been loving, brave, compassionate and so on.
Also, how does one conceptualize that the cycle of rebirth has gone on for so long?
It is not possible to imagine it.
How does this play a role in a Buddhists desire to break the cycle? Is every Buddhist focued on ending the cycle of rebirth immediately? Or can someone still be a 'good' Buddhist without necessarily wanting out of this cycle?
There are two ways of approaching it. Ultimately, Buddhist teachings are about freeing oneself from the cycle of rebirth, and not just about making samsara cozier. At the same time, it provides practical instructions for developing peace of mind, living peacefully and in harmony with others, how to be happy without depending on it, and how to feel sadness without wallowing in it.
The following is recollection based on what I've heard so don't take it as definitive but if I remember right, I have also been told, that mother sentient beings on another level, of understanding, can refer to other sentient beings "giving birth" to you moment to moment during ordinary dualistic consciousness when you perceive self and other as different and grasp at a self identity. So in this sense any time you encounter an "other" sentient being they are a mother that gives rise to your self perception (self as independently existant, seperate entity). Perhaps the different levels of understanding are complementary in the traditional outer inner secret frame work?

KN
ma lu dzok pe san gye thop par shok!
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Rebirth

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

karmanyingpo wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:33 pmThe following is recollection based on what I've heard so don't take it as definitive but if I remember right, I have also been told, that mother sentient beings on another level, of understanding, can refer to other sentient beings "giving birth" to you moment to moment during ordinary dualistic consciousness when you perceive self and other as different and grasp at a self identity. So in this sense any time you encounter an "other" sentient being they are a mother that gives rise to your self perception (self as independently existant, seperate entity). Perhaps the different levels of understanding are complementary in the traditional outer inner secret frame work?
I don’t know. But it’s kind of nice to be able to put on a job resume that you used to be The Dalai Lama’s mom.
:jumping:

For some folks who may have not have had a particularly good relationship with their mothers, one can also regard all beings as their children, or their best friend, or even that all beings used to be their pet dog in past lives (if they are fog lovers) the point is, whatever hits you in the heart.
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Re: Rebirth

Post by reiun »

reiun
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Re: Rebirth

Post by reiun »

"Und so lang du das nicht hast,
dieses Stirb und Werde,
bist du nur ein trüber Gast
auf der dunklen Erde.

--Goethe

And so long as you do not know how
To die and be reborn,
You are but a sorry traveler
on this dark earth.

. . .

Be fully alive.

--reiun, et al
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Re: Rebirth

Post by SilenceMonkey »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 7:07 am
lnn wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:59 am
I am a student studying Buddhism right now and also had apprehensions with regards to the idea of rebirth given the foundation of karma in Buddhism. I am confused at how one's karma can follow with them into a next life without there being an atman for that karma to link itself to? Does anyone have any insight into how this cycle of samsara continues for a specific individual if that individual is not grounded to one specific being?
The karma doesn’t follow a person in the next rebirth.
The karna is what creates the person in the next rebirth.
Actually, karma does follow one into the next life. Hence the saying, "When you die, you will take nothing with you but your deeds." (ie. karma, actions)

The consciousness is what continues from life to life, and our actions (karma) plant "seeds" in our consciousness to blossom at some point in the future, when the right causes and conditions are met. (Those seeds are also considered karma)

Let's not toss out relative truth completely...
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:13 am
lnn wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 4:59 amI am confused at how one's karma can follow with them into a next life without there being an atman for that karma to link itself to?
It is exactly the same as how one’s karma “follows them” from one moment to the next even within this single lifetime. There is no atman right now either. Yet, every moment, the body changes and every moment, mind arises with new thoughts, new perceptions.
Except, as mentioned before, karna doesn’t really “follow” you. Karma is what results in “you” to begin with.
Word.

But I think the point is that as long as we haven't awakened to the illusory nature of it all, we still have the illusion that we are a "me." And because we are under this spell, we reincarnate as if our self were real. (ie. as if we had an atman)
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Jeff H »

It’s my understanding that the teaching of all beings having been our mother is that each of us has engaged with every other living being in every possible kind of relationship, from the very worst to the very best. Motherhood is used to encourage thinking of our relationships in the most positive sense.

The idea of “motherhood” is an ideal standard, universally shared with all beings (generally speaking). Far from meaning that every mother is a perfect mother, it simply refers to the fact that we hold motherhood in our minds as symbolic of selfless love. It is common in western Buddhist classes to hear people complain about their own mothers when this teaching is given. That simply proves the point that we expect mothers to live up to the ideal, even though very often they can’t.

Every rebirth implies a mother. The teaching that each individual conscious stream has been child/mother to every other individual consciousness does indeed imply an inconceivable number of births. That’s an important part of the teaching: There can be no first cause; no first birth. Trying to conceive of how many births that must be is like trying to conceive of an ocean of individual tear drops.
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Re: Rebirth

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Could it be that we have post-mortem rebirth wrong? Backwards?

Could it be that upon death ordinary sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light and without the body as a ‘karmic anchor’ are overwhelmed and their consciousness is blown away? But Bodhisattvas can maintain their awareness and therefore they are reborn? That is, only Bodhisattvas endure the rounds of birth-death-rebirth?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Re: Rebirth

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clyde wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:40 pm Could it be that we have post-mortem rebirth wrong? Backwards?

Could it be that upon death ordinary sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light and without the body as a ‘karmic anchor’ are overwhelmed and their consciousness is blown away?
No. Why? Well, afflictions are what drive rebirth in samsara, even up the the seventh bodhisattva bhumi.
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Re: Rebirth

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It’s my understanding that all sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light at death and that the afflictions are ‘burned off’ (that is, the afflictions cannot survive the Primordial Clear Light) and therefore, the afflictions cannot be the cause of post-mortem rebirth.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Rebirth

Post by GrapeLover »

clyde wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:36 pm It’s my understanding that all sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light at death and that the afflictions are ‘burned off’ (that is, the afflictions cannot survive the Primordial Clear Light) and therefore, the afflictions cannot be the cause of post-mortem rebirth.
In such a case all beings would be liberated after a single life and there would be no need for a path

In the traditional view, ordinary beings remain essentially unconscious during the bardo of clear light and regain consciousness in the bardo of becoming. Their mindstream, karma and afflictions remain intact
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:36 pm It’s my understanding that all sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light at death and that the afflictions are ‘burned off’ (that is, the afflictions cannot survive the Primordial Clear Light) and therefore, the afflictions cannot be the cause of post-mortem rebirth.
Your understanding is incorrect. Where did you get this idea? Certainly not from any reliable Tibetan Buddhist text or teacher.
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Re: Rebirth

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Is my understanding that all sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light at death wrong?

Is my understanding that the afflictions cannot exist with the Primordial Clear Light wrong?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:59 pm Is my understanding that all sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light at death wrong?

Is my understanding that the afflictions cannot exist with the Primordial Clear Light wrong?
As for your first question, yes, all beings experience so-called mother luminosity at the time of death. But if they have not practiced a path, so-called child luminosity, they will not recognize the mother, and so the mother and the child do not meet.

As for your second question, the experience of luminosity itself is insufficient to eliminate afflictions. One has to recognize and remain in that luminosity.

Luminosity is already the nature of your mind, so it is quite clear that luminosity does not eradicate afflictions. Only insight has that power.
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Sādhaka »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:13 pmWell, afflictions are what drive rebirth in samsara, even up the the seventh bodhisattva bhumi.

Ah, then that’s why Arhats would—as I’ve seen claimed—start out on the Eighth Bhumi once they’re eventually roused by Bodhisattvas from their temporary Nirvana, that is because they have already eliminated the emotional afflictions; yet still have mental obscurations (?)
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Malcolm »

Sādhaka wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:23 pm
Malcolm wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:13 pmWell, afflictions are what drive rebirth in samsara, even up the the seventh bodhisattva bhumi.

Ah, then that’s why Arhats would—as I’ve seen claimed—start out on the Eighth Bhumi once they’re eventually roused by Bodhisattvas from their temporary Nirvana, that is because they have already eliminated the emotional afflictions; yet still have mental obscurations (?)
But they don't. They start at the beginning of the Mahāyāna path of accumulation, and it still takes them three incalculable eons to gather the two accumulations, etc.
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Sādhaka »

Hm, apparently that idea is an misconception then....
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