Rebirth

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clyde
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Re: Rebirth

Post by clyde »

Malcolm wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:06 pm
clyde wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:59 pm Is my understanding that all sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light at death wrong?

Is my understanding that the afflictions cannot exist with the Primordial Clear Light wrong?
As for your first question, yes, all beings experience so-called mother luminosity at the time of death. But if they have not practiced a path, so-called child luminosity, they will not recognize the mother, and so the mother and the child do not meet.
My point is that a sentient being not familiar with the “so-called child luminosity” is unprepared at death for the direct experience of the “so-called mother luminosity” and having no refuge is overwhelmed; while a practitioner familiar with the “so-called child luminosity” recognizes the “so-called mother luminosity” and may be able to maintain awareness for rebirth.
As for your second question, the experience of luminosity itself is insufficient to eliminate afflictions. One has to recognize and remain in that luminosity.
While an experience of the “so-called child luminosity” is not sufficient to eliminate all afflictions, the direct experience of the “so-called mother luminosity” is not possible with afflictions.
Luminosity is already the nature of your mind, so it is quite clear that luminosity does not eradicate afflictions. Only insight has that power.
Yes, luminosity is omnipresent, but direct experience isn’t.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 12:00 am
Malcolm wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:06 pm
clyde wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:59 pm Is my understanding that all sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light at death wrong?

Is my understanding that the afflictions cannot exist with the Primordial Clear Light wrong?
As for your first question, yes, all beings experience so-called mother luminosity at the time of death. But if they have not practiced a path, so-called child luminosity, they will not recognize the mother, and so the mother and the child do not meet.
My point is that a sentient being not familiar with the “so-called child luminosity” is unprepared at death for the direct experience of the “so-called mother luminosity” and having no refuge is overwhelmed; while a practitioner familiar with the “so-called child luminosity” recognizes the “so-called mother luminosity” and may be able to maintain awareness for rebirth.
As for your second question, the experience of luminosity itself is insufficient to eliminate afflictions. One has to recognize and remain in that luminosity.
While an experience of the “so-called child luminosity” is not sufficient to eliminate all afflictions, the direct experience of the “so-called mother luminosity” is not possible with afflictions.
Luminosity is already the nature of your mind, so it is quite clear that luminosity does not eradicate afflictions. Only insight has that power.
Yes, luminosity is omnipresent, but direct experience isn’t.
You are mixing apples and oranges. Rebirth is specifically driven by so-called “throwing karma.”

And you are mistaken concerning the ability of afflicted minds to be able to directly experience mother luminosity, which is an experience free from extremes. One must be able to point this out to people with afflicted minds, otherwise there is no path.
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clyde
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Re: Rebirth

Post by clyde »

No doubt an afflicted mind can experience the “so-called child luminosity” and that the afflictions (“throwing karma”?) drive moment-to-moment rebirth.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
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clyde
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Re: Rebirth

Post by clyde »

GrapeLover wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:38 pm
clyde wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:36 pm It’s my understanding that all sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light at death and that the afflictions are ‘burned off’ (that is, the afflictions cannot survive the Primordial Clear Light) and therefore, the afflictions cannot be the cause of post-mortem rebirth.
In such a case all beings would be liberated after a single life and there would be no need for a path

In the traditional view, ordinary beings remain essentially unconscious during the bardo of clear light and regain consciousness in the bardo of becoming. Their mindstream, karma and afflictions remain intact
Yes and no. The Bodhisattva Path is needed and noble because the Bodhisattva understands reality and can avoid rebirth, but chooses to return to a world of suffering with the intention to end all suffering for all sentient beings - here and now.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Malcolm
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:55 am No doubt an afflicted mind can experience the “so-called child luminosity” and that the afflictions (“throwing karma”?) drive moment-to-moment rebirth.
“Throwing karma” is responsible for propelling one into the next world. It has no function in this life.

You are mistaken about the mother and child luminosities. Mother luminosity is experienced at the moment of falling to sleep, etc.
Malcolm
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Re: Rebirth

Post by Malcolm »

clyde wrote: Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:56 am
GrapeLover wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:38 pm
clyde wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:36 pm It’s my understanding that all sentient beings directly experience the Primordial Clear Light at death and that the afflictions are ‘burned off’ (that is, the afflictions cannot survive the Primordial Clear Light) and therefore, the afflictions cannot be the cause of post-mortem rebirth.
In such a case all beings would be liberated after a single life and there would be no need for a path

In the traditional view, ordinary beings remain essentially unconscious during the bardo of clear light and regain consciousness in the bardo of becoming. Their mindstream, karma and afflictions remain intact
Yes and no. The Bodhisattva Path is needed and noble because the Bodhisattva understands reality and can avoid rebirth, but chooses to return to a world of suffering with the intention to end all suffering for all sentient beings - here and now.
Only bodhisattvas above the seventh bhumi can avoid rebirth. That’s why those bhumis are called the “pure.” Bodhisattvas have no control over rebirth on the impure bhumis, other than the fact they never take birth in the three lower realms.
yinyangkoi
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Re: Rebirth

Post by yinyangkoi »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:56 am
Speaking of the body, in seven years, every singe cell in your body has been replaced. That means that by the time you are 21, you’ve already lived through three different bodies!
So, awareness doesn’t rely on a constant body.

The body is constantly changing.
The mind is constantly changing.
That is not completely true, some cells don't get replaced and stay a lifetime, this includes the central nervous system, like neurons http://book.bionumbers.org/how-quickly- ... hemselves/
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Rebirth

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

yinyangkoi wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 6:01 pm
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:56 am
Speaking of the body, in seven years, every singe cell in your body has been replaced. That means that by the time you are 21, you’ve already lived through three different bodies!
So, awareness doesn’t rely on a constant body.

The body is constantly changing.
The mind is constantly changing.
That is not completely true, some cells don't get replaced and stay a lifetime, this includes the central nervous system, like neurons http://book.bionumbers.org/how-quickly- ... hemselves/
They may not be replaced but they age and change. So, they cannot be an unchanging self.
Neurons certainly account for brain activity. In fact, different types of brain activity can be mapped out in different parts of the brain, which I am sure you are aware of too.

Your argument is that when the neurological
activity ceases, awareness ceases. Correct?

And that would suggest that the electricity in the brain either possesses awareness, or is awareness. Correct? One might say that it produces awareness, but then you’d have to ask “For whom? Whose awareness is it?”
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
yinyangkoi
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Re: Rebirth

Post by yinyangkoi »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:30 am Your argument is that when the neurological
activity ceases, awareness ceases. Correct?
The argument is that awareness is dependant on body.
And that would suggest that the electricity in the brain either possesses awareness, or is awareness. Correct? One might say that it produces awareness, but then you’d have to ask “For whom? Whose awareness is it?”
Why would you ask "For whom? Whose awareness is it?" I don't understand the reasoning.
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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Rebirth

Post by PadmaVonSamba »

yinyangkoi wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:23 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:30 am Your argument is that when the neurological
activity ceases, awareness ceases. Correct?
The argument is that awareness is dependant on body.
And that would suggest that the electricity in the brain either possesses awareness, or is awareness. Correct? One might say that it produces awareness, but then you’d have to ask “For whom? Whose awareness is it?”
Why would you ask "For whom? Whose awareness is it?" I don't understand the reasoning.
1. If awareness is simply dependent on “the body”, then if I lose part of my body, I would lose some awareness. So, I think the argument is that awareness relies on neurological activity (brain function).

2. What I mean is, If neurons produce awareness (but they themselves are not awareness nor are entities which possess awareness) then where is that awareness located? (My error: “for whom” was a confusing way of phrasing it).
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
yinyangkoi
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Re: Rebirth

Post by yinyangkoi »

PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:28 pm
yinyangkoi wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:23 am
PadmaVonSamba wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:30 am Your argument is that when the neurological
activity ceases, awareness ceases. Correct?
The argument is that awareness is dependant on body.
And that would suggest that the electricity in the brain either possesses awareness, or is awareness. Correct? One might say that it produces awareness, but then you’d have to ask “For whom? Whose awareness is it?”
Why would you ask "For whom? Whose awareness is it?" I don't understand the reasoning.
1. If awareness is simply dependent on “the body”, then if I lose part of my body, I would lose some awareness. So, I think the argument is that awareness relies on neurological activity (brain function).

2. What I mean is, If neurons produce awareness (but they themselves are not awareness nor are entities which possess awareness) then where is that awareness located? (My error: “for whom” was a confusing way of phrasing it).
Yes, I meant the brain with the body. If you lose the brain you would lose awareness. Let's say when you sleep, certain parts in the brain are off and awareness is not there.

The prefrontal cortex is linked to awareness.

It's like sound, do you know this koan where a master asks the student if the wind or the bell is making the sound? The student answers the mind makes sound. But then the master says, no, all of them together make sound. Neurons on their own, or even smaller parts like atoms might not have awareness, but together they can cause the conditions for awareness to exist.

I wanted to point out this myth about the cells replicating. Whatever story we think off won't change how reality really works.
thanhdq
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Re: Rebirth

Post by thanhdq »

There is a wonderful teaching from Khenchen Appey Rinpoche regard this rebirth topic. You can find it here:
https://chodungkarmo.files.wordpress.co ... ebirth.pdf

Also HH Sakya Trichen Rinpoche wrote about this briefly in his book "Freeing the heart and Mind" Part 1
We have both a physical body and a mind. Of course we know where the physical body came from, how it developed, and how it is maintained. We can see it with our eyes, touch it with our hands, and can describe its size, color, shape, and so on. Eventually, when we leave this world, the physical body will be cremated, buried, or something else. But the mind is something very different. The mind is something that we can’t see with our eyes; we can’t touch with our hands; we can’t describe in terms of shape, color, or size. Where does this mind come from? It cannot come from the body, which is something visible, because the mind is invisible. An invisible mind cannot rise from a visible physical entity—from matter or from the elements.
The mind also has to have some kind of continuity. It cannot come from nothing. Because of this we can establish or prove that we had a mind before we took our present physical body. We must have had a previous or past life. And before that life, we had another past life and so on. There is no point in time that we can identify as the beginning of a particular person’s mind. Our minds are beginningless.
It is one of the wonders of life that from beginningless time until now, this same mind has continued. Of course it changes from moment to moment, but it is still in some sense the same mind. Never stopping, it continues even today in our present human form, but when we leave this world, it will enter another body in another world, in another place, in another family. This goes on and on.
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