Current status of Rumtek.

Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

I stumbled upon this website that purports to have been a livestream of Thaye Dorje from Rumtek last month.

https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam- ... ng-post/

Has there been a change in the status of Rumtek?

Thanks.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Malcolm »

Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:34 pm I stumbled upon this website that purports to have been a livestream of Thaye Dorje from Rumtek last month.

https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam- ... ng-post/

Has there been a change in the status of Rumtek?

Thanks.
Rumtek has been in the hands of Thaye Dorje for some years now, after the Indian courts awarded his side control. Where have you been, Rip Van Schrödinger?
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Did it happen after O.T. got his Dominican passport? I’d read that the Indian government was very unhappy with him for doing that.

Also, any sightings of the Black Hat?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
jmlee369
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by jmlee369 »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:38 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:34 pm I stumbled upon this website that purports to have been a livestream of Thaye Dorje from Rumtek last month.

https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam- ... ng-post/

Has there been a change in the status of Rumtek?

Thanks.
Rumtek has been in the hands of Thaye Dorje for some years now, after the Indian courts awarded his side control. Where have you been, Rip Van Schrödinger?
I am somewhat surprised to hear that, and not sure what to make of this video of Goshir Gyaltsab Rinpoche purportedly visiting in early 2021.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

jmlee369 wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:22 am
I am somewhat surprised to hear that, and not sure what to make of this video of Goshir Gyaltsab Rinpoche purportedly visiting in early 2021.
:shrug:

Hey Cone, can you weigh in on this?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Lingpupa
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Lingpupa »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:38 pm Rumtek has been in the hands of Thaye Dorje for some years now, after the Indian courts awarded his side control. Where have you been, Rip Van Schrödinger?
I'm not at all clear that it's that cut and dried, and I can't find. anything definitive on the net. Can you link to a reliable document?
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
Malcolm
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Malcolm »

jmlee369 wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 4:22 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:38 pm
Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:34 pm I stumbled upon this website that purports to have been a livestream of Thaye Dorje from Rumtek last month.

https://www.karmapa.org/kagyu-monlam- ... ng-post/

Has there been a change in the status of Rumtek?

Thanks.
Rumtek has been in the hands of Thaye Dorje for some years now, after the Indian courts awarded his side control. Where have you been, Rip Van Schrödinger?
I am somewhat surprised to hear that, and not sure what to make of this video of Goshir Gyaltsab Rinpoche purportedly visiting in early 2021.
The court awarded control of Rumtek to the organization that was controlled by Shamar, originally setup by the 16th. This does not bar OTD followers from Rumtek, they just don’t control it.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:54 pm
The court awarded control of Rumtek to the organization that was controlled by Shamar, originally setup by the 16th. This does not bar OTD followers from Rumtek, they just don’t control it.
…and has the Black Hat been accounted for? There’s all kinds of priceless relics at Rumtek, but that one defines the lineage.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Malcolm
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Malcolm »

http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/ ... COURT_-_20
This decision was the culmination of the case that the Karmapa Charitable Trust filed in 1998 to regain control of Rumtek monastery. In this decision, given in the case of Tsurphu Labrang vs. Karmapa Charitable Trust and Ors., announced in New Delhi on July 5, 2004, the court refused to hear the appeal of the Tsurphu Labrang, a group created by Gyaltsab Rinpoche and Tenzin Namgyal to represent the claims of followers of Ogyen Trinley to manage Rumtek in legal proceedings. The court rejected their Special Leave Petition to this effect. By thus refusing to interfere in the earlier decision of the Sikkim District Court and a subsequent confirmation by the High Court in New Delhi, the Supreme Court allowed the original decision to stand -- meaning that the Tsurphu group had no legal claim to Rumtek, and that the Karmapa Charitable Trust was the only group recognized to manage the monastery.
Arnoud
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Arnoud »

Didn't they both recognize KTD's son as the Shamarpa? I imagine they will do the same with the other heart sons and then there will be only one 18th Karmapa again in about 40-50 years.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:07 pm http://tibetanbuddhistencyclopedia.com/ ... COURT_-_20
This decision was the culmination of the case that the Karmapa Charitable Trust filed in 1998 to regain control of Rumtek monastery. In this decision, given in the case of Tsurphu Labrang vs. Karmapa Charitable Trust and Ors., announced in New Delhi on July 5, 2004, the court refused to hear the appeal of the Tsurphu Labrang, a group created by Gyaltsab Rinpoche and Tenzin Namgyal to represent the claims of followers of Ogyen Trinley to manage Rumtek in legal proceedings. The court rejected their Special Leave Petition to this effect. By thus refusing to interfere in the earlier decision of the Sikkim District Court and a subsequent confirmation by the High Court in New Delhi, the Supreme Court allowed the original decision to stand -- meaning that the Tsurphu group had no legal claim to Rumtek, and that the Karmapa Charitable Trust was the only group recognized to manage the monastery.
Thank you.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Giovanni
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Giovanni »

Arnoud wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:22 pm Didn't they both recognize KTD's son as the Shamarpa? I imagine they will do the same with the other heart sons and then there will be only one 18th Karmapa again in about 40-50 years.
Let’s hope so. The present situation is not edifying is it?
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Lingpupa
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Lingpupa »

This material is not without its problems. It reports itself as having been last edited in 2015 - legal proceedings have moved on since then but without, as far as I can see, any resolution. It reports a source at american-buddha.com that no longer seems to exist. The words you put in red appear to be the opinion of whoever wrote that page, but it is not clear who that is or was. Most of the page consists of a variety of messages and documents, but the opening paragraph, especially the closing clauses of that paragraph, appear to be an expression of opinion.

A search for more recent news only shows - as far as I can see - a glacially slow grinding of the Indian legal process with no final result.

I could be wrong - I'm not an expert in these things - and there may have been a resolution one way or the other; if so, it may well be out there on the net. But I fear your link is not it. It does really look as if the situation is as muddy as it has been for more than 20 years now!
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
Malcolm
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:36 pmBut I fear your link is not it. It does really look as if the situation is as muddy as it has been for more than 20 years now!
The Sikkim Supreme Court ruled in favor of the KCT. It was reported in the Indian media when it happened.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/west-ben ... cid/809033

https://www.ngofoundation.in/ngo-databa ... ils_i62163

https://www.thestatesman.com/opinion/th ... 80000.html

http://sikkimnews.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... s-any.html

Enough yet?
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Lingpupa
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Lingpupa »

Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:31 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:36 pmBut I fear your link is not it. It does really look as if the situation is as muddy as it has been for more than 20 years now!
The Sikkim Supreme Court ruled in favor of the KCT. It was reported in the Indian media when it happened.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/west-ben ... cid/809033

https://www.ngofoundation.in/ngo-databa ... ils_i62163

https://www.thestatesman.com/opinion/th ... 80000.html

http://sikkimnews.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... s-any.html

Enough yet?
Well, in fact, no.
Your first link, from 19 years ago, does not reflect the current situation.
Your second only shows me some registration information for the Karmapa Charitable Trust, saying nothing about the current legal situation.
Your third has the merit of being less than four years old, but makes no reference to the legal situation then, now, or before.
Your fourth link, more than 10 years old, repeats the position of the KTC, but reveals nothing about the actual legal situation even then, let alone now.

It appears there has been no final legal determination. The situation is opaque - if there has been a resolution, it is being kept damned quiet.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
Malcolm
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:58 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 6:31 pm
Lingpupa wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:36 pmBut I fear your link is not it. It does really look as if the situation is as muddy as it has been for more than 20 years now!
The Sikkim Supreme Court ruled in favor of the KCT. It was reported in the Indian media when it happened.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/west-ben ... cid/809033

https://www.ngofoundation.in/ngo-databa ... ils_i62163

https://www.thestatesman.com/opinion/th ... 80000.html

http://sikkimnews.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... s-any.html

Enough yet?
Well, in fact, no.
Your first link, from 19 years ago, does not reflect the current situation.
Your second only shows me some registration information for the Karmapa Charitable Trust, saying nothing about the current legal situation.
Your third has the merit of being less than four years old, but makes no reference to the legal situation then, now, or before.
Your fourth link, more than 10 years old, repeats the position of the KTC, but reveals nothing about the actual legal situation even then, let alone now.

It appears there has been no final legal determination. The situation is opaque - if there has been a resolution, it is being kept damned quiet.
2002 Sikkim Supreme Court ruled KCT owns Rumtek. Ruling supported by Indian Supreme Court who declined to hear an appeal.

Case closed.
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Lingpupa
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Lingpupa »

If the case is closed, why is it not closed? Why are legal moves still ongoing? It sure doesn't look cut and dried. I know you don't seem comfortable with things not being black and white, but I really can't see any certainty here. Unfortunately.
All best wishes

"The profundity of your devotion to your lama is not measured by your ability to turn a blind eye."
Malcolm
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by Malcolm »

Lingpupa wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 7:26 pm Why are legal moves still ongoing?
Because the Tshurphu Labrang keeps filing motions in court about this thing and and that thing. But the main point is that KCT won their case, showing that KCT was the legal entity that rightfully controlled Rumtek. It's all over money. Rumtek is very wealthy. Personally, I don't have a horse in this race. This is an internal affair within Karma Kagyu. I have no Karma Kagyu teachers.
TsultimNamdak
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by TsultimNamdak »

It seems to me that it is not entirely cleat cut. This video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ercaNlee4Lc, from December's Thaye Dorje Kagyu Monlam in Rumtek is clearly not from the main monastery.
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conebeckham
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Re: Current status of Rumtek.

Post by conebeckham »

Tinley Thaye Dorje has not visited nor taught at the "New" Rumtek monastery. He has apparently been to to "Old Rumtek"--which has been pretty much under the control of KCT and Shamar's faction for some time now--but he's headquartered still in Kalimpong (and has a group of monks staying semi-permanently at a guesthouse nearby old Rumtek).

Orgyen Tinley Dorje has not visited either monastery.

It is my understanding that there still unresolved legal actions pending regarding "New Rumtek" but I frankly tired of this some time ago and have not actively kept up with the news for some time.
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