Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
Just curious if you see dharmakaya and/or buddhanature as atman/brahman.
IF YOU PRACTICE WITH A STRONG BELIEF IN WHAT
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.
CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE
YOU ARE DOING, THEN THERE IS NO LIMIT TO WHAT
YOU CAN ACCOMPLISH WITH YOUR PRACTICE.
CHAKUNG JIGME WANGDRAK RINPOCHE
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
No
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
Dharmakaya yes, Atman no.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman. Even Dolpopa/Jonang do not view Buddhanature in this way. One of my teachers refers to true being as in the verb, not as a being.
Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
It falls apart in the face of Nagarjuna’s kind of analysis:Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 amNo Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman. Even Dolpopa/Jonang do not view Buddhanature in this way. One of my teachers refers to true being as in the verb, not as a being.
“Apart from whatever has been or has not been, there no [present] being.”
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
Apparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
Yes, structurally speaking, in so far as both propose that the ultimate and relative are mutually exxclusive. But he did not agree that the content or the result was the same.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 amApparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
Yes, I personally can't debate this point but thought it was worth mentioning. Helped me avoid the idea of Shentong being a self or soul.Malcolm wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:10 amIt falls apart in the face of Nagarjuna’s kind of analysis:Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 amNo Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman. Even Dolpopa/Jonang do not view Buddhanature in this way. One of my teachers refers to true being as in the verb, not as a being.
“Apart from whatever has been or has not been, there no [present] being.”
Could you clarify what Nagarjuna means by this quote tho? It seems he is saying "something" is there or present.
"Regarding the sutras that teach emptiness, as many as were taught by the Victor, By al of them afflictions are reversed. But Buddha Nature is never refuted in them... Within the afflictions, primordial wisdom abides as immaculate Suchness." - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
It’s not universally accepted that this book was written by the same Nagarjuna. If it was, then I personally am shocked."Regarding the sutras that teach emptiness, as many as were taught by the Victor, By al of them afflictions are reversed. But Buddha Nature is never refuted in them... Within the afflictions, primordial wisdom abides as immaculate Suchness." - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
I was unaware of this. I looked at other threads and it seem that there is no mention of this text by other Indian authors and other historical evidence that it was written much later. Interesting!Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:06 amIt’s not universally accepted that this book was written by the same Nagarjuna. If it was, then I personally am shocked."Regarding the sutras that teach emptiness, as many as were taught by the Victor, By al of them afflictions are reversed. But Buddha Nature is never refuted in them... Within the afflictions, primordial wisdom abides as immaculate Suchness." - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu
Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
There are three hundred texts attributed to Nāgārjuna in the tengyur. Very few could actually have been composed by Nāgārjuna I.Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:56 pmI was unaware of this. I looked at other threads and it seem that there is no mention of this text by other Indian authors and other historical evidence that it was written much later. Interesting!Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:06 amIt’s not universally accepted that this book was written by the same Nagarjuna. If it was, then I personally am shocked."Regarding the sutras that teach emptiness, as many as were taught by the Victor, By al of them afflictions are reversed. But Buddha Nature is never refuted in them... Within the afflictions, primordial wisdom abides as immaculate Suchness." - In Praise of the Dharmadhatu
- PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
Cite a source please?Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 amApparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
There can always be similarities depending on the context. A mouse and an elephant are more similar than they are different. But, they are definitely very different.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
I think you are leaving out the other part of this discussion where he says something like “but they have no Buddha’s”. Iirc the purported conversation this came from I don’t recall it as being an endorsement of Advaita Vedanta.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 amApparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
Correct.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:24 pmI think you are leaving out the other part of this discussion where he says something like “but they have no Buddha’s”. Iirc the purported conversation this came from I don’t recall it as being an endorsement of Advaita Vedanta.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 amApparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
A conversation I had with Khenpo in 1992 at the Newton Dharmadhātu, when he was teaching a program there.
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
I have often wondered about this. Maybe he's talking about experiential view...the view experienced by the meditator in meditation, before he/she arises from meditation and puts a whole lot of labels on things for the purpose of talking about it or explaining it to others.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 amApparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
In his seminal book “Progressive Stages Of Meditation on Emptiness” he remarks that “All forms of Mahayana claim to sit in uncontrived emptiness.” That leads me to believe how you talk about it isn’t all that important.lhaksam.dorje wrote: ↑Thu Jan 13, 2022 12:39 pmI have often wondered about this. Maybe he's talking about experiential view...the view experienced by the meditator in meditation, before he/she arises from meditation and puts a whole lot of labels on things for the purpose of talking about it or explaining it to others.Schrödinger’s Yidam wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:24 amApparently the Karma Kagyu lama Khenpo Tsultrim thinks Shentong and Advaita Vedanta are similar in their view.Nicholas2727 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:53 am
No Buddhist school sees Buddhanature/Dharmakaya as atman or brahman.
I think Khenpo Tsultrim bases his view on texts like The Uttaratantra. However what he bases his meditations and experiences on is another matter.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
They are quite similar. And why not? Shankara was greatly inspired by Nagarjuna.
I think Shankara sums up the pivotal difference himself quite well. If only Nagarjuna had admitted that there really is an existent deathless consciousness which is one's true self then he'd have gotten everything right. Oh well.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"
--- Gandavyuha Sutra
Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
Gzhan stong is not the view of Nagarjuna.
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Re: Is there an atman in your school? (Shentong)
True. No argument there!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)